Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

Think about Batman Knightfall, when Bruce was taken out by Bane and was replaced by Jean-Paul Valley; it is then that we learn the true nature of Bruce as Batman. Even Gothamites recognized the true Batman compared to Knightfall Batman

Yeah, but that was, like, the complete opposite of Jane's story.

We were never supposed to see Jean-Paul as a valid and genuine replacement for Batman. Then the story built up to Bruce eventually re-taking the mantle and overcoming AzBats.

Jane is more like Wally West as The Flash if we're comparing DC legacy heroes. She's meant to be seen as a successor that was wholly accepted and embraced, with the original being kind of phased out, and possibly being even more successful then their predecessor. It made it more jarring when the mantle return happened.

I think that was the difference between the main wave of Marvel replacement stories around that time compared to how those are traditionally handled.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Indeed we had a few conversations about this story early on. As wall as Superior Spider-Man. They all do slightly different things but their technique is the same.

Except it's not.

Not every replacement story is the same. They have different starting points, and different basis'.

Knightfall was to demonstrate who Batman was not. Just like John Walker was designed to fail under the weight of the mantle, Jean-Paul was never meant to last.

Nightwing replacing Batman was to show the burden of the mantle. He didn't fail, but it was always something that weighed heavily on his character.

Superior Spider-Man was another replacement story always meant to end in defeat. He wiped himself out willingly, because he knew that in the end, Peter was the better Spider-man.

There's no rule that all replacement stories have to take the same path. But generally speaking, they're suppose to highlight something about the character who's been replaced, and who is standing in.

Jane Thor did not do that. Remove the breasts, and you had Thor's basic character. And Thor's return to...his name? was by default, not triumph or victory, and only came after losing his signature weapon (which, naturally, he never stopped pining for).

Hell, even Thor's return to being worthy was diluted by three other Thors at the same time.

[Panic]

Yeah, but that was, like, the complete opposite of Jane's story.

We were never supposed to see Jean-Paul as a valid and genuine replacement for Batman. Then the story built up to Bruce eventually re-taking the mantle and overcoming AzBats.

Jane is more like Wally West as The Flash if we're comparing DC legacy heroes. She's meant to be seen as a successor that was wholly accepted and embraced, with the original being kind of phased out, and possibly being even more successful then their predecessor. It made it more jarring when the mantle return happened.

I think that was the difference between the main wave of Marvel replacement stories around that time compared to how those are traditionally handled.

This. It was pretty much the polar opposite, with the result showing that Bruce's shoes were too big to fill.

[JKtheMac]

Yeah, but that was, like, the complete opposite of Jane's story.

That's not the point. We all know its a different story. It's the same technique. You were being sceptical about the technique and why it might be applied. Here you are taking the argument in an entirely different direction that nobody was alluding to.

[charliehustle415]

This. It was pretty much the polar opposite, with the result showing that Bruce's shoes were too big to fill.

I completely agree, Jane never filled the shoes of Thor; she wore a different pair of shoes - to prove there can only be ONE Thor.


She was a mortal imbued with immortal power and it would have killed her because cancer is the anthesis of immortality, even the MotherStorm had a hard time coming to grips with it; that's why it kept pestering Jane when she was told by Strange it would kill her

[Frontier]

That's not the point. We all know its a different story. It's the same technique. You were being sceptical about the technique and why it might be applied. Here you are taking the argument in an entirely different direction that nobody was alluding to.

I think the argument here is that it's conceptually a similar story in as far as a replacement/legacy aspect, but the technique and purpose is entirely different.

I completely agree, Jane never filled the shoes of Thor; she wore a different pair of shoes - to prove there can only be ONE Thor.

But Jane did fill the shoes of Thor. That's why everyone acknowledged and called her Thor and we get lines like "she who wielded you best." It's why she had the name to begin with.

Her story had the exact opposite stance that there can only be ONE Thor, because she said it herself that "there must always be a Thor" even if it's not Thor Odinson.

[charliehustle415]

I think the argument here is that it's conceptually a similar story in as far as a replacement/legacy aspect, but the technique and purpose is entirely different.

But Jane did fill the shoes of Thor. That's why everyone acknowledged and called her Thor and we get lines like "she who wielded you best." It's why she had the name to begin with.

Her story had the exact opposite stance that there can only be ONE Thor, because she said it herself that "there must always be a Thor" even if it's not Thor Odinson.

There must always be a Thor because Odinson was felled by Gorr (how can Thor Odinson be Thor is he himself doesn't believe it anymore?); Frontier I love our debates but I feel like I am going in circles here.

[Frontier]

There must always be a Thor because Odinson was felled by Gorr (how can Thor Odinson be Thor is he himself doesn't believe it anymore?); Frontier I love our debates but I feel like I am going in circles here.

I kinda understand .

Although Thor wasn't really felled by Gorr, that makes it sound like Gorr actually did something directly instead of Fury saying it second-hand. If he had I think it would've been more effective.

[Wall-Crawler]

SO MUCH SO! That ending with him and Hyperion.....man! You have no idea how proud I was of my boy! No idea!
I’ll NEVER BE ABLE TO THANK HICKMAN ENOUGH!

Now, since Marvel hates Thor so much, they should've let him die there and then and move forward with the “girl power” thing. Then, we could just bow out, ignore it, and let it be. But, I will never stand by and let a favorite legendary character I grew up with be crapped on like that without letting the supporters of such disrespect know that we’re not all ignorant sheep. We know the history. We didn’t jump on the train for a short ride in which all the classic beats are being repeated badly with a social progress swing.

If this is a story about “being Thor” why is everything spun into the feminine? This is no attack on women. This is truth. Last time I checked superhero women can deck a bad fella just as good as a guy! So, why Titania’s commentary? Why Surtura? Why Cursa? Why did Odin have to BEAT, yes BEAT the Mother of Storms into submission? Then lock her up against her will. Why can’t a woman rule ASGARD? Why the insults from the female goddesses about the “patriarchy”? Why is Thor a cheater? Why is a lacking mother allowed to rant about the death of her son and blame a god for it when she is his primary caretaker? I need an answer to this because this is the ONLY recurring theme in this entire tale. The only answer I get is “you’re sexist.” “You’re not reading it right.” “You don’t see the real meaning!” Well, I’m sorry but I just delineated the main examples of what this story is built on. It’s not about clarifying “what Thor is”. It’s about replacing him, disrespectfully with a woman. That’s what this story was about: replacing the masculine with the feminine in the MOST POWERFUL MALE HERO’S MYTHOS. I’m surprised Mangog wasn’t revealed to be a lady and renamed SHEGOG!

I’ve read almost every post of those in favor of this story. Everyone is entitled to their likes and dislikes. However, the answers given gloss over everything and attempt to cover the truth of the stories intent. There was no purpose to the unworthy story other than to humiliate and replace Thor. As has been said here by many of us, nothing was added to his character other than that the most noble and valiant of heroes is really a drunken dirt bag and a human lady shows him/them how much greater she is and smarter she is than they. There is no counter point to this. What did she teach Thor about self sacrifice? Nothing. Thor wrote the book on that and on being heroic even in defeat. She “inspired” Thor? Gods don’t need inspiration but there is the atheist popping up. It’s funny how everyone then attacks with “it’s just a fictional character” but so is Jane and if you insult her you’re banned for intolerance. By those standards “the Mighty Thor” series should be banned from the forums for the slander it has done to another fictional character, it’s nod and wink insult to religion, and underhanded hit at men.

I understand this whole empower women movement. I have sisters and had a mother I loved more than my own life but those are real world topics. This is fiction. Escapism. I have never done anything wrong to any woman. Nothing. I don’t need to come to my world of escapism after a hard days work and be lectured about things I don’t do. Worse, we have fake characteristics imbued into a character that has never demonstrated any of those flaws. Many people say it’s pathetic to argue defending a fictional character. Ok. Perhaps. But, if that’s true, then taking inspiration from another equally fictional character’s ascendancy and journey is equally pathetic.

You just put into words everything wrong with this run, you clearly have passion for this subject like I do, like many of us do, and speaking on what you believe is right or wrong. Sure, these are fictional characters, but they are also so much more, they have meaning for a lot of us, so when they get crapped on, you can sure expect us to speak out loud why we don't like it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I completely agree, Jane never filled the shoes of Thor; she wore a different pair of shoes - to prove there can only be ONE Thor.


She was a mortal imbued with immortal power and it would have killed her because cancer is the anthesis of immortality, even the MotherStorm had a hard time coming to grips with it; that's why it kept pestering Jane when she was told by Strange it would kill her

Again I say, what different shoes?

She spoke like classic Thor, she acted like classic Thor and frankly, never seemed to relate to anyone as anyone other than Thor.

[Wall-Crawler]

I just read an issue I had no idea existed, "At The Gates of Valhalla", and man was that issue complete garbage, a waste of paper, you can't possibly read this and tell me Aaron isn't doing this bs purposely to spite Thor fans.

Thor's granddaughters trying to see the Thor of the "golden age" only to be revealed that they were looking for Jane, then fan-girling over Jane Foster and telling her they learned all about being a great goddess from her, so cringeworthy, I can't express enough how much I despise what Aaron has done to Thor.

[THORPERION]

I just read an issue I had no idea existed, "At The Gates of Valhalla", and man was that issue complete garbage, a waste of paper, you can't possibly read this and tell me Aaron isn't doing this bs purposely to spite Thor fans.

Thor's granddaughters trying to see the Thor of the "golden age" only to be revealed that they were looking for Jane, then fan-girling over Jane Foster and telling her they learned all about being a great goddess from her, so cringeworthy, I can't express enough how much I despise what Aaron has done to Thor.

Yeah! And then people have the gall to call us “detractors”. We’re not detracting anything. The bias and ill will is in the writer’s pen! We’re just not sheep. Character first. Politics never!

That issue as an example! So the granddaughters of “Thunder” were not impressed by Old King Thor whom they saw take down Galactus but were impressed by someone they never even knew existed just because she was a WOMAN with the hammer?! Tarene anyone?! Aunt Angela? (Grandmother) Sif? No? Wow. That issue furthered the fall of Aaron. GoT seemed to be an alternate reality Thor at that point! Lmao!

[charliehustle415]

Again I say, what different shoes?

She spoke like classic Thor, she acted like classic Thor and frankly, never seemed to relate to anyone as anyone other than Thor.

Come on CoolGuy, she didn't become a female version of Thor; Jane was granted the power of Thor.

I don't think a single fan of Jane ever thought she transformed into a Thor Odinson or that Thor Odinson transformed into a female version of himself.

There is only one Thor and that is the son of Odin: Thor Odinson.

Jane may have behaved like Thor and even took his name, but she never became Thor Odinson.

That is the different shoes.

[phantom1592]

I still say Eric Masterson was done the RIGHT way. A mortal who replaces Thor. Gets his power. His responsibility... but never loses his 'humanity'. The fact that he still had the soul of a Mortal was what set him apart from the true Thunder god. He took the name Thor. WAS Thor to everyone on earth and a champion of Asgard… but never believed he was worthy to replace the TRUE Thor. His story was about how a mortal handled the gift of the power of a god... And his life mission was to find and restore the hammer to it's rightful wielder.

Not ever claiming by himself or anyone else in any way to be 'a superior god'. Even though at the time I longed for Thor to come back... I still loved reading Eric's story. Jane?? Not so much. When it started out with the 'Who is the new Thor' concept focusing entirely on how awesome a god she was... an not the mortal wielding the hammer. I could see the way it was going to go.

TLDR: I'm fine with Thor being replaced... I'm fine with others getting the hammer and even his Name... I'm not fine with it done so disrespectfully. Anyone taking the mantle of ANY of the iconic characters should be in awe of the legacy they've inherited... and not simply replace the 'old and busted' with the 'new hotness'.

[phantom1592]

Come on CoolGuy, she didn't become a female version of Thor; Jane was granted the power of Thor.

I don't think a single fan of Jane ever thought she transformed into a Thor Odinson or that Thor Odinson transformed into a female version of himself.

There is only one Thor and that is the son of Odin: Thor Odinson.

Jane may have behaved like Thor and even took his name, but she never became Thor Odinson.

That is the different shoes.

When Eric had the hammer... He was still Eric. All the same speech and attitude and mentality. With the hammer or in his mortal guise, Eric was still Eric. Beta Ray Bill without HIS hammer... is still the same personality as Beta Ray in his Thor form...

Jane?? Whenever I saw Jane in Thor form.... she didn't feel, sound or act like Jane Foster anymore. She was full on Asgardian warrior-goddess born... and I can see where people say she was wearing the same shoes. It didn't feel 'honest' of a character. At least not till much later.