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  1. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    When Eric had the hammer... He was still Eric. All the same speech and attitude and mentality. With the hammer or in his mortal guise, Eric was still Eric. Beta Ray Bill without HIS hammer... is still the same personality as Beta Ray in his Thor form...

    Jane?? Whenever I saw Jane in Thor form.... she didn't feel, sound or act like Jane Foster anymore. She was full on Asgardian warrior-goddess born... and I can see where people say she was wearing the same shoes. It didn't feel 'honest' of a character. At least not till much later.
    This and phantoms post

    Salient note about personality, both Eric and bill were always Eric and bill, there was no personality shift

    Indeed Eric would often internally discuss with himself how he wasn't the real Thor

    This is a very distinct difference to how Aaron decided to write Jane with the hammer, and effectively differs the continuity well established

    I wonder what his reasons for that choice were

    Red was somewhat different in his godlike form, but then that was odins plan all along

    But it reminds me more of red that Eric or bill

  2. #2042
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the argument here is that it's conceptually a similar story in as far as a replacement/legacy aspect, but the technique and purpose is entirely different.
    I don’t think anyone would disagree though. It’s not actually an argument in that it’s generally true and non controversial. The only difference is that I am talking structural technique and you are seeing it as a plot contrivance. That’s just not establishing a joint language, not a disagreement as such.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-25-2019 at 03:31 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #2043
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I completely agree, Jane never filled the shoes of Thor; she wore a different pair of shoes - to prove there can only be ONE Thor.


    She was a mortal imbued with immortal power and it would have killed her because cancer is the anthesis of immortality, even the MotherStorm had a hard time coming to grips with it; that's why it kept pestering Jane when she was told by Strange it would kill her
    Is there just a little bit of that statement that is placating those who don’t see Jane as truly being Thor? I mean the whole story was about Jane actually being Thor. It was on the cover. That’s why people got upset and rejected the premise. That’s why people are still passionate enough to argue about it. That’s why we have not moved on in the debate.

    Making a mortal actually replace a god is controversial. It is glorious, comic book craziness, but some are very traditional with their comic fandom.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-25-2019 at 03:37 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #2044
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    I just read an issue I had no idea existed, "At The Gates of Valhalla", and man was that issue complete garbage, a waste of paper, you can't possibly read this and tell me Aaron isn't doing this bs purposely to spite Thor fans.

    Thor's granddaughters trying to see the Thor of the "golden age" only to be revealed that they were looking for Jane, then fan-girling over Jane Foster and telling her they learned all about being a great goddess from her, so cringeworthy, I can't express enough how much I despise what Aaron has done to Thor.
    There is no doubt in my mind that he was deliberately challenging Thor fans. That’s why I love Aaron. I want to be challenged.

    The same will happen with Hickman. He is going to challenge everything and it’s going to be wonderful.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  5. #2045
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Come on CoolGuy, she didn't become a female version of Thor; Jane was granted the power of Thor.

    I don't think a single fan of Jane ever thought she transformed into a Thor Odinson or that Thor Odinson transformed into a female version of himself.

    There is only one Thor and that is the son of Odin: Thor Odinson.

    Jane may have behaved like Thor and even took his name, but she never became Thor Odinson.

    That is the different shoes.
    Again, different how?

    Jane was a nurse, is a doctor, mother, wife and character that's been around for decades.

    How was that past reflected in her time as Thor?

    ...besides throwing shade at Odin for how he treated her relationship with Thor

  6. #2046
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Again, different how?

    Jane was a nurse, is a doctor, mother, wife and character that's been around for decades.

    How was that past reflected in her time as Thor?

    ...besides throwing shade at Odin for how he treated her relationship with Thor
    She was mostly a cypher. A paper thin character. I mean as a mother she was in less than ten books and didn’t really have an important role. As an actual wife even less. She was often just someone to put in peril.

    Surely you see how rescuing that character from the awful trap she was in was liberating?
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  7. #2047
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Making a mortal actually replace a god is controversial. It is glorious, comic book craziness, but some are very traditional with their comic fandom.
    I don't think it is specifically "mortal replacing a god" that causes controversy, it's someone with little experience being as good as someone with a great deal of experience. It's the same thing that has dogged Star Wars arguments since The Empire Strikes Back - how feasible is it that a newbie can challenge an expert with little to no training. Like with most fiction it requires a certain amount suspension of disbelief, and that depends on how keen you are on the outcome. An audience will overlook implausibilities in a story if they really like where it is going, if they're not enjoying it they won't.

    I think the religious aspect is being overstressed.

  8. #2048
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    I don't think it is specifically "mortal replacing a god" that causes controversy, it's someone with little experience being as good as someone with a great deal of experience. It's the same thing that has dogged Star Wars arguments since The Empire Strikes Back - how feasible is it that a newbie can challenge an expert with little to no training. Like with most fiction it requires a certain amount suspension of disbelief, and that depends on how keen you are on the outcome. An audience will overlook implausibilities in a story if they really like where it is going, if they're not enjoying it they won't.

    I think the religious aspect is being overstressed.
    But I covered that in my post. That’s just rejection of premise. It’s technically a reason that is secondary to the shock of loosing the old guy.

    She becomes Thor. Thor is competent. Nuff said.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #2049
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    But I covered that in my post. That’s just rejection of premise. It’s technically a reason that is secondary to the shock of loosing the old guy.

    She becomes Thor. Thor is competent. Nuff said.
    If Thor is competent how could he so readily be judged unworthy

  10. #2050
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    If Thor is competent how could he so readily be judged unworthy
    Because it has nothing whatsoever to do with competency. Why would it?
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #2051
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Because it has nothing whatsoever to do with competency. Why would it?
    How is it different, I'm not being flippant here

    But iirc you said he did nothing to be unworthy it's about the trying, which at least makes sense to me even if I don't think that's totally correct

    But if he's a competent thunder god, what is it that is different to being a worthy thunder god

    If he's a competent god, how is he also an unworthy god

    Surely a competent Thor is one who is also trying to be worthy

    It's the internal logic of the story that isn't scanning here for me not your opinion just to be clear
    Last edited by kilderkin; 07-25-2019 at 06:04 AM.

  12. #2052
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    How is it different, I'm not being flippant here

    But iirc you said he did nothing to be unworthy it's about the trying, which at least makes sense to me even if I don't think that's totally correct

    But if he's a competent thunder god, what is it that is different to being a worthy thunder god

    If he's a competent god, how is he also an unworthy god

    Surely a competent Thor is one who is also trying to be worthy

    It's the internal logic of the story that isn't scanning here for me not your opinion just to be clear
    You are somewhat expanding upon how I was using competent for starters. “If he is a competent god” what does that even mean? You seem to imply it means being a really good example of a god makes you worthy. Maybe, maybe not.

    The assertion was that Jane could suddenly fight, wield Mjolnir, go toe to toe with powerful gods WITHOUT paying her dues. I am simply saying that becoming Thor imbued these things as a package. All she did was take up the mantle with purpose and the rest was gifted to her. That it is understandable that some people wouldn’t like this but so what? That’s the story accept that premise or read something else.

    There is no point arguing it couldn’t happen, but it is perfectly acceptable to say ‘I don’t like that story’. But we should perhaps separate those two things in our head. There are many stories that I reject because I don’t like the premise. I reject the premise of new Star Wars. I just don’t watch the movies anymore. Not going to tell Disney they can’t do it. They can do what they want.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-25-2019 at 06:15 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  13. #2053
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    You are somewhat expanding upon how I was using competent for starters. “If he is a competent god” what does that even mean? You seem to imply it means being a really good example of a god makes you worthy. Maybe, maybe not.

    The assertion was that Jane could suddenly fight, wield Mjolnir, go toe to toe with powerful gods WITHOUT paying her dues. I am simply saying that becoming Thor imbued these things as a package. All she did was take up the mantle with purpose and the rest was gifted to her. That it is understandable that some people wouldn’t like this but so what? That’s the story accept that premise or read something else.

    There is no point arguing it couldn’t happen, but it is perfectly acceptable to say ‘I don’t like that story’. But we should perhaps separate those two things in our head. There are many stories that I reject because I don’t like the premise. I reject the premise of new Star Wars. I just don’t watch the movies anymore. Not going to tell Disney they can’t do it. They can do what they want.
    Actually I think you have a point

    If we look back at when Blake picks up the hammer he is very capable straight away

    Ok Blake was/wasn't Thor argument can be had, but initial impressions were it was a man taking on that mantle

    To an extent this just follows on that idea

    I'm ok with that thinking

    Cheers

  14. #2054
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Is there just a little bit of that statement that is placating those who don’t see Jane as truly being Thor? I mean the whole story was about Jane actually being Thor. It was on the cover. That’s why people got upset and rejected the premise. That’s why people are still passionate enough to argue about it. That’s why we have not moved on in the debate.

    Making a mortal actually replace a god is controversial. It is glorious, comic book craziness, but some are very traditional with their comic fandom.
    I try to be diplomatic; yet it is very difficult.

    First everyone screams Thor is not a title he is a person and now everyone is like well, no for Jane it wasn't a title she actually is Thor.

    Fandom makes it difficult to have a conversation.

  15. #2055
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Well JK has been arguing that Jane was Thor, you're saying she was just empowered with Thor's powers, so you two are at odds. I've always said that Jane having Thor's powers does not make her Odinson, but in the context of what I was talking about before, Jane was dressed in Thor-influenced clothing, doing the things that Thor normally does, basically being better at being Thor than Thor. And that was to do with the Knightfall comparison.

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