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  1. #2656
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I don’t even agree that he is thousands of years old. I much prefer to see him in the way he was presented under Aaron as being a little over one thousand years old give or take a couple of hundred years. The whole Ragnarok cycle stuff can he hand waved away as nothing more than a passing fancy of a few writers who wanted to write a more mythological Thor. It has mostly been retconned out of existence from my own personal perspective since Secret Wars.

    But that’s a bit of a tangent. I am not saying he needs to be “very modern” I am saying his stories need to be modern. Mythology in the context of modern storytelling has the power to enlighten us and see the world around us in new and interesting ways. Ways that can’t be expressed simply and often can’t be expressed outside of storytelling. To do that the characters need to speak to us now.

    Take what I have already claimed to be one of my favourite issues of Thor of all time. Thor #10, ‘A Boy and his All-Father’. The power of that issue for me is its direct addressing of dysfunctional fatherhood in a very modern and relevant way. A way that spoke to me and my own life, and probably many others who have had more difficult parental relationships than I ever did. On one level it was timeless story of a father and son rivalry, and on another it couldn’t have been told in any previous decade. Only now are these kinds of issues being addressed in ways that acknowledge how our culture places expectations on fathers.
    I like this reading of Thor being relatively young, because if he is young now; then it makes sense for King Thor to exist especially since Odin himself is over 1,000,000 years old as seen in Avengers One Million (please don't debate with me on the merits of the timeline that Aaron has set up).

    Thor's age also has to do a lot with his brash and impatient self and the fact he doesn't really have an identity beyond the wielder of Mjolnir and it isn't until War of The Realms does he finally get his identity.

    For me whenever there is a new writer I always take it as a soft reboot; for ardent continuity fans, I say this is a fools folly; because it's not possible and it doesn't matter how much mental gymnastics you do.

    Sure Ragnarok happened, Odin is strong man, Thor is a unflinching god man that MRA's can look up to... until he isn't.

    I can imagine a ton of Aaron fans will be upset with Cates when he decides to change things up, but alas this is the nature of the medium.

  2. #2657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that, but I think that was also part of my problem with it was that it just didn't read true to me in terms of depicting Thor and Odin's relationship and just seemed to further detract from Odin.
    Seriously. Writers love throwing shade at any authority figure that isn't their main character for a host of reasons

  3. #2658
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Nothing gets under my skin more than the argument that Superman is unrelatable. It comes from such a shallow understanding of the character. I'm a black man, I shouldn't be able to relate to Superman at all, but I do. Superman is the ultimate first responder, even without his powers, that's what he would be. A fire fighter, an EMT, a Police Officer, that's who Superman is. Yes he has all the powers, but he can't be everywhere at once, as many people as he saves, there are those whom he can't and that weighs on him. He's an example of absolute power not corrupting absolutely. In a world that is becoming more cynical, harsh, and cruel by the second, it is difficult to believe that a man like him, does the right thing just to do it. He isn't motivated by the death of a loved one, fame, riches, or crippling insecurity. He just does it. Grant Morrison once said that "Batman fights death, while Superman fights the impossible." I think he does that because he's the only one who can.
    I was being deliberately provocative with that, but if you read what I said I was mostly referring to my own perspective on the character which I stand by because it’s how I feel about him. He is a character that doesn’t touch me in any way. Along with Batman mostly, at least in recent decades.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #2659
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that, but I think that was also part of my problem with it was that it just didn't read true to me in terms of depicting Thor and Odin's relationship and just seemed to further detract from Odin.
    And although I understand that perspective I think it is a fundamentally limiting way to approach cannon. A way that would leave every writer in a straight jacket of outmoded story forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I can imagine a ton of Aaron fans will be upset with Cates when he decides to change things up, but alas this is the nature of the medium.
    Only in so far that there are always people upset with shifts in writing approaches. I would like to think seasoned comic readers would understand that canon is not king and never was, but it does seem as if people have to relearn that lesson over and over.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-12-2019 at 02:59 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  5. #2660
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I don’t even agree that he is thousands of years old. I much prefer to see him in the way he was presented under Aaron as being a little over one thousand years old give or take a couple of hundred years. The whole Ragnarok cycle stuff can he hand waved away as nothing more than a passing fancy of a few writers who wanted to write a more mythological Thor. It has mostly been retconned out of existence from my own personal perspective since Secret Wars.
    Odin wasn't even a particularly young man over a million years ago. If you consider Thor so very young then he still has the spring of his life ahead of him. I haven't seen that in Aaron's writing. He's a young man when he first meets Jane Foster, he'll be an old man on the throne, his high energy adventuring behind him when she's gone. He might as well have a human life span, or spend the thousand years before and after his Avenger days as a popcicle like Captain America for all the importance it has.

    But that’s a bit of a tangent. I am not saying he needs to be “very modern” I am saying his stories need to be modern. Mythology in the context of modern storytelling has the power to enlighten us and see the world around us in new and interesting ways. Ways that can’t be expressed simply and often can’t be expressed outside of storytelling. To do that the characters need to speak to us now.
    If everything Thor does, everything that happens in the Nine Realms is very close analogue for what's common and modern on earth, then I do not think it is showing the world in new and interesting ways.

  6. #2661
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And although I understand that perspective I think it is a fundamentally limiting way to approach cannon. A way that would leave every writer in a straight jacket of outmoded story forms.
    I think it places the Thor comic in a much tighter straight jacket if all Odin can ever amount to be is a mediocre father, because that way he tackles a relatable problem.

  7. #2662
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    hey where is Hela???

    she was swallowed by a Black Hole the last time we saw her.

    I don't think she died.

  8. #2663
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And although I understand that perspective I think it is a fundamentally limiting way to approach cannon. A way that would leave every writer in a straight jacket of outmoded story forms.
    I don't think it's limiting if we're trying to keep characters' characterization and relationships consistent with past stories.

    If you want to tell a certain story or dynamic there are probably better ways then altering characters to fulfill that story obligation even if it doesn't fit them.

    At least that's my take on it.

  9. #2664
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think it's limiting if we're trying to keep characters' characterization and relationships consistent with past stories.

    If you want to tell a certain story or dynamic there are probably better ways then altering characters to fulfill that story obligation even if it doesn't fit them.

    At least that's my take on it.
    Could you say that about Batman? Would we as a modern audience be okay with the Golden or Silver Age Batman? His characterization was so ridiculous and it was Frank Miller who pulled him to the present (1980's) and from then on his characterization has changed with the times.

    Times change as well as attitudes, Thor needs to move forward; I mean look at Hickman's X-Men; Moira has been turned into a life jumping mutant, and instead of being a analogue for race relations in America the X-Men have turned into a analogue of humanity vs technology.

  10. #2665
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Could you say that about Batman? Would we as a modern audience be okay with the Golden or Silver Age Batman? His characterization was so ridiculous and it was Frank Miller who pulled him to the present (1980's) and from then on his characterization has changed with the times.
    I think Batman's modern persona has been relatively consistent.
    Times change as well as attitudes, Thor needs to move forward; I mean look at Hickman's X-Men; Moira has been turned into a life jumping mutant, and instead of being a analogue for race relations in America the X-Men have turned into a analogue of humanity vs technology.
    Has Thor really moved forward? Aaron's Unworthy Thor and Avengers Thor feels more like a regression then anything else.

    I'm not against progress or momentum but it has to feel true to the character for me.

  11. #2666
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Batman's modern persona has been relatively consistent.

    Has Thor really moved forward? Aaron's Unworthy Thor and Avengers Thor feels more like a regression then anything else.

    I'm not against progress or momentum but it has to feel true to the character for me.
    I suppose the logical question is what is the "true character" of Thor?

    At what point can one point to and say, "This is Thor's characterization"?

    Is it Kirby & Lee era?

    Simonson era?

    Jurgens era?

    JMS era?

    Fraction era?

    Gillen era?

    You see where I am going with this; how can one justify picking one over the other?

    They are all pretty distinct from one another especially Simonson & JMS; yet we do not get criticisms of him for deviating from Kirby & Lee.

    It's Kobayashi Maru of arguments - there is no in winning a argument to choose one over the other as Thor's "true character"
    Last edited by charliehustle415; 10-12-2019 at 02:00 PM.

  12. #2667
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I suppose the logical question is what is the "true character" of Thor?

    At what point can one point to and say, "This is Thor's characterization"?

    Is it Kirby & Lee era?

    Simonson era?

    Jurgens era?

    JMS era?

    Fraction era?

    Gillen era?

    You see where I am going with this; how can one justify picking one over the other?

    They are all pretty distinct from one another especially Simonson & JMS; yet we do not get criticisms of him for deviating from Kirby & Lee.

    It's Kobayashi Maru of arguments - there is no in winning a argument to choose one over the other as Thor's "true character"
    The true Thor is the one who can't be replaced by Hercules

  13. #2668
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The true Thor is the one who can't be replaced by Hercules
    Speaking of which where the hel is Herc? I miss his solo title so much.

    Let's have a buddy cop title with Thor & Herc; now that is something I can get behind.

  14. #2669
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I suppose the logical question is what is the "true character" of Thor?

    At what point can one point to and say, "This is Thor's characterization"?

    Is it Kirby & Lee era?

    Simonson era?

    Jurgens era?

    JMS era?

    Fraction era?

    Gillen era?

    You see where I am going with this; how can one justify picking one over the other?

    They are all pretty distinct from one another especially Simonson & JMS; yet we do not get criticisms of him for deviating from Kirby & Lee.

    It's Kobayashi Maru of arguments - there is no in winning a argument to choose one over the other as Thor's "true character"
    I mean, I see consistency from era to era myself, but that's just me. Simonson and JMS Thor feels like the same character to me, if at a different period in his life.

    Aaron's Thor just feels at times like a complete reconceptualizing of the character.

  15. #2670
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    She is currently ruling her realm whith her wife and co-ruler the Norn Queen and tormenting Malekith
    I

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