Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

T-T-T-Toyfair

The gold looks better on this toy, but...still kind of random.

[JKtheMac]

Changing the writer could destroy his future as well. There’s no guarantees that future writers would stick to the continuity that Aaron has seemingly established in his stories as they tend to have their own ideas on the characters and editors these days seem pretty relaxed on continuity issues.

I would be fine if Aaron’s successor on the book decides to give Thor his arm back and maybe even have him grow his hair long again.

The last three or four writers have stuck to continuity pretty closely. Aaron has been building on everyone else’s stories. I am pretty sure nobody will just throw all of his hard work away.

[JKtheMac]

The same can be said for Aaron's Thor (but not that extreme), you have to admit that just because people do not like how he is being written does not mean that

1) others who do like it are not as good a fan

2) dislike the character as he was written before

3) or continue to want him to be written as he is written now; change is good as is variety

I have been making these points for years now. Some people just want to make outrageous claims. They can’t accept that people like the things they don’t like and want to prove that they are wrong. The only way to do that is through rhetorical tricks.

Some assert their opinion is the only valid one by ruling out everyone that doesn’t agree with them. The “real fan” argument is just dismissive. It is obvious to anyone that a fan could have just started reading and still be a huge fan. You could read a sprinkling of every era in a few days with Mavel Unlimited, so I just don’t buy the idea that new fans are not real fans. By that logic we could claim nobody here is a real Thor fan unless they bought JitM 83 off of a spinner rack. I would go so far as to say there is nothing that makes a collector with every issue any more “real” a fan than someone who has only been buying the book for a few months. I would also assert that a “real” fan would not attack other fans just because they were new.

The most nonsensical rhetoric is to imply that change is bad. It ignores all of the change that they have enjoyed, like say Simonson’s radical changes (which some try and pretend was universally loved at the time) or even Kirby and Lee’s retcon (which some try and pretend wasn’t a retcon).

Comics always change. Especially comics that have not always been best sellers like Thor.

For the record this very long term fan thinks the depiction of Odin in #10 is peak Odin. That’s exactly how I see him and have seen him for decades. A dysfunctional father who struggles to communicate his true feelings and finds himself becoming angry or dismissive despite himself. There are roots to this depiction going way back to the beginning. The Odin that is a great and powerful benevolent force is just not interesting to me.

[Daedra]

The last three or four writers have stuck to continuity pretty closely. Aaron has been building on everyone else’s stories. I am pretty sure nobody will just throw all of his hard work away.

as soon as the next big-shot writer will handle things they will forget all about Aaron future, it will be like any other "future" in all comics history: just an alternate mostly forgotten possibility

[beetee]

as soon as the next big-shot writer will handle things they will forget all about Aaron future, it will be like any other "future" in all comics history: just an alternate mostly forgotten possibility

Hope away then. King Thor is set so far into the future, it doesn't really affect anything.

[Daedra]

Hope away then. King Thor is set so far into the future, it doesn't really affect anything.

It's all inconsequential, future stories in comics are all destined to be super disposable once they have served their purpose

[Snoop Dogg]

Odin has this spectrum of takes because in the 60's he was presented as this godly figure beyond criticism and deconstruction. He did some terrible things. The things in those years alone merit any idea that he and Thor could have a strained relationship. Lee and Kirby did a perfect job selling him as essentially God. Everyone after was not Lee and Kirby. He very much settled into his Thor's dad role and was unmemorable (in my opinion...). That's why it was smart for Simonson to have him flex for a bit and then just die. DeFalco brings him back and turns him into a homeless crazy grandpa (wish Ragnarok had some more fun adapting that). After that, he was presented as an angry dad with stunts like "LUL this cameraman is my son now." Then he was just the dad for a while until Jurgen killed him, and then Fraction had him come out of his Odin hole and starts the real trend of angry dad that carries over into Jason.

The reason that Jason stresses an angrier Odin is because he is trying to find the fundamental aspects of the mythos that make characters more relatable. Put them in situations that expose them as more flawed and three dimensional. That's why MCU Thor is so much more popular now. Recent movies have made him more like a guy. Odin is more like a real guy now. Real dads are like this, and Odin's history sustains this kind of take. If Odin is just going to be the strong dad, and not a flawed god or one presented as amoral and above judgement, then he shouldn't be around. If he were ideal, he would always lower the stakes for any Thor conflict if he was a good dad and had his Odinforce and whatnot because he would literally be a safety net that has to be taken off the table somehow.

So-- Who likes flawed real dad Odin, who likes ideal dad Odin, and who likes true actual above judgement God Odin?

[charliehustle415]

I have been making these points for years now. Some people just want to make outrageous claims. They can’t accept that people like the things they don’t like and want to prove that they are wrong. The only way to do that is through rhetorical tricks.

Some assert their opinion is the only valid one by ruling out everyone that doesn’t agree with them. The “real fan” argument is just dismissive. It is obvious to anyone that a fan could have just started reading and still be a huge fan. You could read a sprinkling of every era in a few days with Mavel Unlimited, so I just don’t buy the idea that new fans are not real fans. By that logic we could claim nobody here is a real Thor fan unless they bought JitM 83 off of a spinner rack. I would go so far as to say there is nothing that makes a collector with every issue any more “real” a fan than someone who has only been buying the book for a few months. I would also assert that a “real” fan would not attack other fans just because they were new.

The most nonsensical rhetoric is to imply that change is bad. It ignores all of the change that they have enjoyed, like say Simonson’s radical changes (which some try and pretend was universally loved at the time) or even Kirby and Lee’s retcon (which some try and pretend wasn’t a retcon).

Comics always change. Especially comics that have not always been best sellers like Thor.

For the record this very long term fan thinks the depiction of Odin in #10 is peak Odin. That’s exactly how I see him and have seen him for decades. A dysfunctional father who struggles to communicate his true feelings and finds himself becoming angry or dismissive despite himself. There are roots to this depiction going way back to the beginning. The Odin that is a great and powerful benevolent force is just not interesting to me.

Amen brother, classic is only classic in hindsight

[GodThor]

So-- Who likes flawed real dad Odin, who likes ideal dad Odin, and who likes true actual above judgement God Odin?

the last one.

honestly, I think the writers are trying to humanize Gods way too much something they shouldn't do (someone actually brought up that recently).

just look at what he did to Celestials. they are now talking and are having some sex love story LoL.

this is what Aaron was trying to do with Jane where she was teaching them how to be Gods and how she was more worthy and better in everything.

she was that human who became God and knows everything, literally.

and honestly, it was so laughable when Cul was brought back to Asgard to be one of the main guys, despite what he did LoL.

let's not mention that ENTIRE Asgard now doesn't even like Odin and seems like he is the biggest tyrant there is.

DEATH TO PATRIARCHY!!!!

[JKtheMac]

as soon as the next big-shot writer will handle things they will forget all about Aaron future, it will be like any other "future" in all comics history: just an alternate mostly forgotten possibility

Given that this hasn’t happened for decades, even when it would be much better for everyone that they did do that, I very much doubt it. In many ways this perspective is a self fulfilling prophecy. When the next writer picks up the story he or she will have been left with a relatively blank slate. They will be empowered to write Odin the way they like him. That doesn’t mean they will be contradicting Aaron. That isn’t how this game works.

[JKtheMac]

The Tyranny of the Toy Box
How idealism in comics brainwashed a generation


There is a story every comic book fan knows. Many hold it dear to their hearts. For some it is not just a story, it is a sacred text handed down from on high.

Once upon a time a toy maker fashioned a series of wonderful boxes, and in them he placed the most glorious toys a child could ever want. They were toys that fire the imagination. They were colourful and vivid with meaning. Each toy meant something fundamental to the vision of the toy maker, such that every child would take down a box from the shelf, open it, and immediately understand how the toys went together and how the rules worked.

And what a game. It was a game of combinations, where each toy had its place. When you opened the box all the toys were laid out in order, such that the child could take each piece from the box and tell stories with them that fitted that overall game. The individual toys combined so perfectly that the stories any child made could be wild and free, infinite in variety. There was just one rule, but the rule was easy to follow. Just keep the toys in order. No matter how much the child played with the toys, and whatever game was devised with them, the child had to make sure the toys were placed back in the box in the exact same order they came out in. That way the magic of the box always worked.

Stories like this are simple, elegant and powerful. They train the mind. They keep things in order. They define the way we see the world. They are myths.

There are some myths that are so fundamental to our society that they demand our respect. They should always be passed down and kept alive through the generations because they define what is good about our culture and our values.

There are some myths that develop with time. Someone somewhere sees the world slightly differently to the way everyone around them sees it and they tell a new story. If they sound true. If they resonate with the old myths and seem to fit, then they will be retold in the same way as the old myths, with the same passion and conviction. Everyone will forget that they were innovations.

These myths can be dangerous or they can be illuminating. They are myths of change. Sometimes it is difficult to tell the dangerous ones from the respectful ones.

We need to look very carefully at the toys and the box. We need to see if it is a worthy myth. Let’s look at the toy box labelled “The Mighty Thor”. Let us pull it off of the shelf and examine it closely without reference to the little book of true fandom.

In the box are laid out many toys in a particular order. But look closely and the individual toys are made up of smaller parts. They are not as perfect as they first appear. The parts that make them are not perfectly fashioned. Look at Thor himself. The arms and legs, each articulated piece of the toy seems to be from a different set. That arm looks like it came from an older Captain Marvel box. That leg looks like it was swapped out from a New Testament toy box. That other arm might even come from a competitors box. That old wooden hammer seems to be from a toy box from the far distant past. Somebody seems to have built this toy box out of old toys. Not only that, but the pieces don’t seem to quite fit in their assigned places in the box. At some point a child moved that Odin piece and forced him into the box in a new place. You can still see where the plastic was stretched if you look closely. That Warriors Three grouping looks like it was from another box once. The box has been stretched a little to fit them in, and the tape is almost invisible. Indeed the more you look at the box, you can tell it isn’t as old as the toys. Somebody made the box for the toys to fit in.

The toy box myth is a dangerous myth. It was invented only a few years ago but it has been written into a little book and given to everyone who would be a comic book fan. It is an ideology that changed comics forever. Fans recite it word for word as truth. It is a lie.

The toy box lie nearly killed comics. Ironically that same lie helped save them. It is a lie that continues to divide fans and cause ideological wars. But, because it is a myth, and resonates with the other myths that comic fans live by, it is rarely seen as a lie. Some of the children that played with the toys before the myth was created know it to be untrue. They cried out as the myth was being fashioned, but their voices are dim and distant. The insidious nature of the lie, is that it tells everyone that the kids that played with the toy box before, were just not aware they were playing by the rules. Even their objections were turned against them.

The biggest problem with the tool box myth is it stifles the children who want to play by the old rules. The original rules. There was a time before the box. A time when kids were not told to put everything back the way they found it. Instead they left them in a slightly different order that made sense to the children of that era. Forcing the toys back in the same box means we can only tell certain stories that only really suit the age the box was made in.

It wouldn’t be so bad, but the boxes were made in an era that had very specific priorities. The whole point of the boxes was to market the toys to a specific generation. A generation that is now made up of adults who like to keep toys in boxes and don’t want new kids to mess with them. Those new kids are handed a little book of lies before they can look at the boxes. The adults have trained themselves not to see the old wooden hammer and the way the Jesus leg doesn’t quite match the Superman arm or the Captain Marvel arm, and they don’t want the kids to notice either.

Every now and then a writer comes along that knows the toy box rules are a lie. Usually they are passionate comic book fans. They have read their history without reference to the little book, or they have listened carefully to the cries of the writers before the toy box lie. These writers look at the toys really carefully and they take note of the mismatched pieces. Before they start to play with them they take out each toy and place them on the play mat in a new way that to them makes much more sense than the way the box laid them out. Sometime they swap out a new leg or arm. They change the hammer for a new one.

The people that have bought into the toy box lie don’t like it. They don’t recognise that the writer is playing by the old rules. They believe the reconstructed history in the little book, which tells them the toy box rules are the only rules. Rules that worked even before they were written. They sense that the toys are not going to fit back in the box in the same way and they cry foul. It makes no difference if the writer has a clear and dazzling new vision. That they are making a new box that will be in better shape and appeal to a whole new group of people. If the toys won’t go back the same way, the writer is doing it wrong.

We need to get rid of the toy box analogy. We need to throw away that little book of lies. It has always stifled the industry. It is a bad myth. It creates conflict. At best it is too simplistic and at worst it is a brainwashing tool. Stories are not confined to neat little boxes. That is a myth made up by people that like boxes, told to an audience that liked boxes. It excludes everyone else. The people that like boxes are a minority, but the myth is so insidious it makes people like boxes.

[GodThor]

Given that this hasn’t happened for decades, even when it would be much better for everyone that they did do that, I very much doubt it. In many ways this perspective is a self fulfilling prophecy. When the next writer picks up the story he or she will have been left with a relatively blank slate. They will be empowered to write Odin the way they like him. That doesn’t mean they will be contradicting Aaron. That isn’t how this game works.

they can do another Ragnarok.

[JKtheMac]

the last one.

honestly, I think the writers are trying to humanize Gods way too much something they shouldn't do (someone actually brought up that recently).

Don’t tell anyone, but the secret is that all comic book characters have to be identifiable as people, for people. Even alien raccoons or weird symbiotes. We are humans, and we respond to human stories. Stories about inhuman gods are best left to the horror writers.

this is what Aaron was trying to do with Jane where she was teaching them how to be Gods and how she was more worthy and better in everything.

she was that human who became God and knows everything, literally.

Not the way I read it. That reads to me like an unfounded criticism built upon the ideals of disgruntled fans. The text of the book does not assert anything of the sort. Some characters make these assertions but they are wrong. Importantly Jane herself never believed this. She asserted that Thor was the one true god of Thunder. She even wondered at her own abilities and why she was able to do what she could. Aaron was slowly building a theme that he is now continuing into the wider books. An idea that new individuals can become carried along by the archetypes that they wield. That the Thor archetype came with certain things that we don’t always associate with it, but were always there at the beginning of the story.

and honestly, it was so laughable when Cul was brought back to Asgard to be one of the main guys, despite what he did LoL.

So presumably, now that Aaron is directly addressing this, and hinting at a deeper truth you are applauding the reintroduction of Cul? This very issue is beginning to delve into the relationship between Odin and Cul and is touching upon that choice Odin made. It even calls out the Fear Itself story in the text. The story is being built around these older stories. Or are you so set in your view that you believe writers change these things just to keep the fans happy?

let's not mention that ENTIRE Asgard now doesn't even like Odin and seems like he is the biggest tyrant there is.

And again, this is being dealt with both thematically and with reference and reverence to the older stories. Fear Itself was the culmination of Tyrant Odin. Aaron is slowly rebuilding him. Now, after many years he is giving us the first glimpse of his inner conflict over this. He is setting Odin up to be a bigger player again. Possibly setting him up to become a martyr for Asgard.

DEATH TO PATRIARCHY!!!!

Oh my. It feels like nobody got that joke. Especially the people it was aimed at.

[JKtheMac]

they can do another Ragnarok.

That’s not what they have ever done before and you know it. The only real Ragnarok was the one that created the DC New Gods out of the ashes of Thor. All the rest have just been story constructs. Even the nonsensical ‘ragnarok cycles’ have been quietly put to bed, because the idea never quite fitted the continuity.

[kilderkin]

I have concluded to not care one bit what Aaron does with Thor and his mythos anymore

I'll happily wait till it's written to my liking if ever

It no longer bothers me because imo it's not a good enough version of the mythos or character to care about