Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[GodThor]

Having different views on a work of art, whether it be a comic, a book, or a movie, is one thing.

Coming up with theories as to why they came into existence in the first place - especially when these theories are totally out of touch with reality - is another.

Funny, coming from a guy who almost always quotes me because he cannot accept different opinions.

I have a feeling you think it's your job to do that.

[JKtheMac]

@brettc1 I am not personally attacking you. I was pointing out a perspective and how there is more to Aaron’s Thor than you give credit. That is not an implication that you are not understanding Aaron, it is me pointing out something you or others may not have noticed or even looked for.

Just because I am pointing out things I have read in the subtext, which have variously been verified by the writer in interviews, picked up by other readers and reviewers, expounded upon by other writers who have expressed their admiration, does not imply that you have not understood anything. Nor does it say anything about you as a reader.

You may or may not enjoy books that explore these kinds of issues, you may not want books with your favourite characters to explore them. You may not want layers of meaning in your superhero comics. That’s all totally fine.

It is understandable that any topic that touches upon issues of masculinity, feminism or misogyny will potentially be a hot button topic, but I have tried to make it clear that I don’t hold the opinion that people that dislike these things being explored are somehow sexist or against the issues portrayed. I often switch my mode of writing to try and differentiate between individuals and a broader cultural bias, using ‘we’ or ‘one’.

Understand also, that those of us that do believe Aaron is one of the best writers to work on Thor have a passion for his work. A passion that matches those who hate him. That doesn’t mean he is necessarily my favourite writer ever, or that he can do no wrong. It doesn’t mean I think anyone that doesn’t like him is just reading him wrong. But it does mean I am keen to share why I like him, what it is about his writing that appeals to me and others who enjoy his work, and to defend him from criticisms I believe are unfair.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Yes, I really think that Malekith is going to suffer mightily by the end of WotR. I don't think he's going to get off easy whatsoever. I eagerly look forward to seeing what just punishment is visited on him.

I want that smarmy Dario Agger to suffer even more.

[brettc1]

@brettc1 I am not personally attacking you. I was pointing out a perspective and how there is more to Aaron’s Thor than you give credit. That is not an implication that you are not understanding Aaron, it is me pointing out something you or others may not have noticed or even looked for.

Just because I am pointing out things I have read in the subtext, which have variously been verified by the writer in interviews, picked up by other readers and reviewers, expounded upon by other writers who have expressed their admiration, does not imply that you have not understood anything. Nor does it say anything about you as a reader.

You may or may not enjoy books that explore these kinds of issues, you may not want books with your favourite characters to explore them. You may not want layers of meaning in your superhero comics. That’s all totally fine.

It is understandable that any topic that touches upon issues of masculinity, feminism or misogyny will potentially be a hot button topic, but I have tried to make it clear that I don’t hold the opinion that people that dislike these things being explored are somehow sexist or against the issues portrayed. I often switch my mode of writing to try and differentiate between individuals and a broader cultural bias, using ‘we’ or ‘one’.

Understand also, that those of us that do believe Aaron is one of the best writers to work on Thor have a passion for his work. A passion that matches those who hate him. That doesn’t mean he is necessarily my favourite writer ever, or that he can do no wrong. It doesn’t mean I think anyone that doesn’t like him is just reading him wrong. But it does mean I am keen to share why I like him, what it is about his writing that appeals to me and others who enjoy his work, and to defend him from criticisms I believe are unfair.

Or... maybe I'm actually an intelligent and insightful reader who is not as ignorant or uneducated as you choose to believe.

And maybe I use my own reasoning to say that this might be what he wanted to get across, but I don't think he did a very good job of it in certain regards. That despite some very clever pacing and plot layout and characterization in certain regards, there are some of Aaron's artistic choices that I don't personally think were good choices.

And that no matter how he explains it outside the book, and how many reviewers might agree with him, and what other readers opine, that I have my own mind and my own opinions independent of the others that say "I don't think this was a good choice" and that all the ways he presents his message are not holy scripture that cannot be challenged.

[brettc1]

I want that smarmy Dario Agger to suffer even more.

Oh hell yes. Him and every one of his cyber terrorists.

I smiled big when I heard T'Challa say he was going to send the Agents of Wakanda to dish out some justice on all their asses.

[Frontier]

I’d have paid $1000 to see Odin and Surtur really go at it on screen.

I was also disappointed we didn't get a "For Asgard! For Midgard! For Myself!" moment (Avengers Assemble actually did it).

[GodThor]

I was also disappointed we didn't get a "For Asgard! For Midgard! For Myself!" moment (Avengers Assemble actually did it).

ah Simonson flashbacks

[Frontier]

ah Simonson flashbacks

Could you imagine Hopkins, Hemsworth, and Hiddleston doing those lines? Would've been awesome .

[Prof. Warren]

Funny, coming from a guy who almost always quotes me because he cannot accept different opinions.

I do tend to point it out when someone makes a statement that is false.

Rarely do I say much about actual opinions because I don't particularly care about what people like or don't like.

But when someone takes it upon themselves to speak on behalf of a larger group rather than just speaking for themselves, it's worth pointing out how erroneous that is.

And when someone puts out a theory that is clearly not supportable by any evidence, it's worth pointing out that it's pure bs.

[Prof. Warren]

I want that smarmy Dario Agger to suffer even more.

They all need to go down!

[GodThor]

But when someone takes it upon themselves to speak on behalf of a larger group rather than just speaking for themselves, it's worth pointing out how erroneous that is.

eh it's the same when someones says It's largely positively received by people.

by your logic, no one can point that out but only the other way around.

I can say whatever I want.

quoting me every time is useless.

[Daedra]

I do tend to point it out when someone makes a statement that is false.

Rarely do I say much about actual opinions because I don't particularly care about what people like or don't like.

But when someone takes it upon themselves to speak on behalf of a larger group rather than just speaking for themselves, it's worth pointing out how erroneous that is.

And when someone puts out a theory that is clearly not supportable by any evidence, it's worth pointing out that it's pure bs.

sounds like you are describing your own posts ......how ironic.

[JKtheMac]

The issue with the current "Mary Sue" criticism is not, however, purely a gender-specific double standard coming into play, and I feel it is disingenuous to argue that it is.

I would point out I wasn’t claiming anything this clear-cut. I have far more to say on this subject but I honestly don’t think it belongs in this thread.

on the one hand we have comic book writers arguing that heroes today need a greater level of complexity and perhaps moral ambiguity, more flaws and layers, great big feet of clay... but then for other heroes they change their mind and pile strength upon strength, glory upon glory.

Well you make a good point. And yes I agree this may be one of the roots of dissatisfaction with Aaron’s Thor. I think you may be conflating two separate issues to reach this conclusion, but many others may naturally conflate those two issues too. Because, as you point out, there is an ‘apparent’ double standard. It has got to the point where I also see this apparent double standard all the time. I just don’t see it as a problem because I don’t think it’s a real thing.

Perhaps at the root of this is our different perspective on ‘deconstruction’. I see Jane as part of a thematic exploration of Thor, and so her positive and negative elements are all part of that deconstruction for want of a better term. They are thematically linked to Odinson. For me, reducing Odinson’s power is part of this thematic exploration not separate. It is entirely coincidental that this is a deconstruction and that this is about depowering him or rather depowering him flows from the themes and the deconstructive approach. Aaron didn’t wake up one day and decide to make Odinson’s life miserable, he asked himself some fundamental questions about who the character was and the way he settled upon to explore those questions involved Odinson confronting a crisis of faith and identity and another character coming at the same issues from a different direction. So instead of there being a double standard applying, what I see is two sides of the same coin. An extension of the same story. A story I am enjoying precisely because it is asking these questions. It explores ideas I am interested in as a Thor fan, and does it in an enjoyable and inherently comic book, wish fulfilment, superhero manner.

More and more I see it weaponised to clear one hero out of the way of a writer's favourite.

The fact that you see it, is not proof of the writers’ intentions. I don’t read everything, so there may be instances of this, but it seems clear to me that this isn’t happening with Thor...

You can't pile on the negatives onto one hero when you have made it a highly competitive environment where the winner is the hero who is the most dominant, the most flawless, the smartest. ... You get too much and your hero will dwindle away to being a supporting player other heroes will wipe their boots on. This is modern Marvel, unfortunately.

You express this very passionately, but I just don’t see it. I see the complaints, and I see the stories that have provoked these complaints but I don’t see the logical connection. You are explaining it very clearly, but from my perspective there is a flaw in the logic.

Clearly Thor will remain as an important hero for Marvel. I do see the ‘apparent’ double standard, but that doesn’t mean there is one. It just means that a group of fans perceive one. From my perspective it seems like a big misunderstanding. Misconstruing a writer expressing his passion for Thor comics as a writer undermining the character in favour of another. A perspective explained very succinctly by your post, but not actually reflective of the motives of either Marvel nor Aaron from my perspective.

It may provoke genuine anger and exasperation but that doesn’t mean it deserves that anger. I hear it, and I have sympathy for the perspective but I don’t share it.

[Prof. Warren]

eh it's the same when someones says It's largely positively received by people.

by your logic, no one can point that out but only the other way around.

I can say whatever I want.

quoting me every time is useless.

If I simply feel compelled to correct erroneous statements, no.

Also, it can be proved that something is largely positively received by people. People vote with their dollars.

That's how publishers know when something is working and when it isn't.

If a run is still selling well after seven years, not just seven months but years, it's fair to say it's being well-received by a number of people.

It's certainly the logical conclusion as opposed to trying to rack your brain figuring out why something is widely hated but magically, inexplicably is a sustained hit.

Much easier to simply admit that it isn't to your personal taste and walk away. I do it all the time.

Of course I actually just stop buying runs that I hate, rather than keep reading them and keep complaining about them for years on end and trying to delude myself into thinking that everyone else must think it's terrible too but somehow they're also helpless to just stop reading.

Maybe whoever takes over for Aaron eventually will be more to your taste.

If they aren't, I hope you'll take it as a sign that it's time to find better ways to pass your time.

Up to you, of course. I just know that if I don't like the next writer, I'm not going to stick around for very long just to bitch about it.

[JKtheMac]

Or... maybe I'm actually an intelligent and insightful reader who is not as ignorant or uneducated as you choose to believe.

If I believed you were either of these things I wouldn’t try and explain my perspective to you. You seem very intelligent in your approach, I just don’t share your point of view and am trying to explain why.

And maybe I use my own reasoning to say that this might be what he wanted to get across, but I don't think he did a very good job of it in certain regards. That despite some very clever pacing and plot layout and characterization in certain regards, there are some of Aaron's artistic choices that I don't personally think were good choices.

That is a fair enough criticism. Especially if it has dissatisfied you. I don’t think it is perfect. If I was Aaron’s editor I would have suggested he approached a couple of things slightly differently. However the story is as it is. Criticising something for what it isn’t or what it might be is a slippery slope.

And that no matter how he explains it outside the book, and how many reviewers might agree with him, and what other readers opine, that I have my own mind and my own opinions independent of the others that say "I don't think this was a good choice" and that all the ways he presents his message are not holy scripture that cannot be challenged.

No they are most certainly not. But I do think we need to be considered in our criticisms of writers, and we should certainly be very cautious of ascribing negative motives to them as people. We can criticise their actual work but some of the criticisms I read here are highly personal and aimed at the individual.