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  1. #2326
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I know you say you got around to reading this, but you seem to be making a lot of claims about the book that are not representative of what actually transpired. Like for example claiming the hammer is judging confidence, it isn’t, and that it’s about Thor doubting himself, which it isn’t.
    I read about 40 issues before getting bored. I have never claimed any more than that.

    I have put a guess as to why Thor suddenly couldn’t lift the hammer. if Aaron supplied a wonderfully convincing explanation...it either wasn’t in those 40 issues, or the logic was so abstruse it passed me by.

    What is your more likely explanation for these skeleton facts:-

    1/ After thousands of years of being able to lift the hammer, suddenly after being asked a seemingly innocuous question, Thor can’t anymore?

    2/ Jane can lift the hammer but thousands of other people with similar qualities can’t?

    Contrast that with Beta Ray Bill being able to lift hammer in the Walt S run. I could see a strong internal logic to that...Beta Ray Bill was established as a completely fearless exceptionally skilled warrior before lifting the hammer.

    It is warrior virtues that I would expect (most people would expect?) to be how Nordic gods would define “worthy” for purposes of wielding a weapon

    If you really don’t see this as a relative weak part of the run..I’m genuinely surprised.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 08-24-2019 at 07:07 AM.

  2. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I read about 40 issues before getting bored. I have never claimed any more than that.

    I have put a guess as to why Thor suddenly couldn’t lift the hammer. if Aaron supplied a wonderfully convincing explanation...it either wasn’t in those 40 issues, or the logic was so abstruse it passed me by.

    What is your more likely explanation for these skeleton facts:-

    1/ After thousands of years of being able to lift the hammer, suddenly after being asked a seemingly innocuous question, Thor can’t anymore?

    2/ Jane can lift the hammer but thousands of other people with similar qualities can’t?

    Contrast that with Beta Ray Bill being able to lift hammer in the Walt S run. I could see a strong internal logic to that...Beta Ray Bill was established as a completely fearless exceptionally skilled warrior before lifting the hammer.

    It is warrior virtues that I would expect (most people would expect?) to be how Nordic gods would define “worthy” for purposes of wielding a weapon

    If you really don’t see this as a relative weak part of the run..I’m genuinely surprised.
    I hadn't thought of it from that perspective

    That's definitely interesting

  3. #2328
    Incredible Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Gorr himself said that our modern Thor is the “Thor who doubts.” Furys whisper just brought those doubts to life, thus making Thor unworthy. Because, to him, he really thought that he was a selfish God.
    Now, yes, I believe the whole saga is a story of self-worth or self doubt. Thor became worthy again when he started believing in himself, and realised its about trying his best despite what others think of him.

  4. #2329
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I read about 40 issues before getting bored. I have never claimed any more than that.

    I have put a guess as to why Thor suddenly couldnít lift the hammer. if Aaron supplied a wonderfully convincing explanation...it either wasnít in those 40 issues, or the logic was so abstruse it passed me by.

    What is your more likely explanation for these skeleton facts:-

    1/ After thousands of years of being able to lift the hammer, suddenly after being asked a seemingly innocuous question, Thor canít anymore?

    2/ Jane can lift the hammer but thousands of other people with similar qualities canít?

    Contrast that with Beta Ray Bill being able to lift hammer in the Walt S run. I could see a strong internal logic to that...Beta Ray Bill was established as a completely fearless exceptionally skilled warrior before lifting the hammer.

    It is warrior virtues that I would expect (most people would expect?) to be how Nordic gods would define ďworthyĒ for purposes of wielding a weapon

    If you really donít see this as a relative weak part of the run..Iím genuinely surprised.
    Could you then say that a "warrior's virtue" is tied to the virtue of bravery?

    Bravery is the Golden Mean (Aristotelean Virtue Ethics [I know, I know I couldn't help myself]) between the vices of Cowardice and Rashness, the former is lacking any bravery and the latter is becoming to emboldened.

    Thor at the point of losing his Worthiness just defeated Gorr and was battling Roxxon when Fury felled him. I wonder if you could say that Thor became rash because of his victories and moved him out of the golden mean into viciousness and when Fury whispered to him it knocked him into cowardice because Thor was afraid to face himself as a being who is unworthy.

    Think of when he was young Thor he was absolutely rash hence why he couldn't lift the hammer, maybe it was Fury that put him over the edge.

    See image below








    However, this still doesn't answer the fact how other heroes in the Marvel Universe could not wield Mjolnir

  5. #2330
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I read about 40 issues before getting bored. I have never claimed any more than that.

    I have put a guess as to why Thor suddenly couldn’t lift the hammer. if Aaron supplied a wonderfully convincing explanation...it either wasn’t in those 40 issues, or the logic was so abstruse it passed me by.

    What is your more likely explanation for these skeleton facts:-

    1/ After thousands of years of being able to lift the hammer, suddenly after being asked a seemingly innocuous question, Thor can’t anymore?

    2/ Jane can lift the hammer but thousands of other people with similar qualities can’t?

    Contrast that with Beta Ray Bill being able to lift hammer in the Walt S run. I could see a strong internal logic to that...Beta Ray Bill was established as a completely fearless exceptionally skilled warrior before lifting the hammer.

    It is warrior virtues that I would expect (most people would expect?) to be how Nordic gods would define “worthy” for purposes of wielding a weapon

    If you really don’t see this as a relative weak part of the run..I’m genuinely surprised.

    Hey! Great points and analysis.

    Quite frankly it’s useless to engage with apologists over Aaron’s nonsense. They say one thing here and then switch it later. They say it’s a story about what it is to be Thor and “introspection” but then tell you it’s not about self doubt??? It just goes back and forth until they call you a misogynist because they can’t win against your logic, common sense, facts, and yes, ESTABLISHED canon. Sorry. Try as they might, somethings, no matter what a writer does, are NOT “retcon-able.”

    Save yourself the grief my friend.

  6. #2331
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Hi all! Was wondering about Hickman’s Ultimate Thor, is it worth the read or no?
    AKA FlashFreak
    Favorite Characters:
    DC: The Flash (Jay & Wally), The Atom (Ray Palmer) , Jack Knight, Stargirl, & Shazam!.
    MARVEL: Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, & Ant-Man (Scott Lang).

    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, Immortal Hulk, Guardians of The Galaxy, Absolute Carnage, Justice League, & Shazam!

  7. #2332
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Hi all! Was wondering about Hickman’s Ultimate Thor, is it worth the read or no?
    It's a pretty good companion to The Ultimates and Ultimates 2.

    It gives you more mythology that Millar never gives you.

  8. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Gorr himself said that our modern Thor is the “Thor who doubts.” Furys whisper just brought those doubts to life, thus making Thor unworthy. Because, to him, he really thought that he was a selfish God.
    Now, yes, I believe the whole saga is a story of self-worth or self doubt. Thor became worthy again when he started believing in himself, and realised its about trying his best despite what others think of him.
    It's modern America who doubts itself, and the comic Thor only reflects that. And it's one of the reasons I'm not highly invested in it (and modern superhero comics in general*). You see, I am not an American. I share some of its ideals, but putting it in the center of the universe is a bit too much for me. The world needs Thor... I mean, Superman... I mean, America. Of, course, you could say (American) comics have always reflected that, but, Kirby was never parochial - not even close - although he co-created Captain America. Of course, he is just one example - there were many others, too.

    Second thing is, faith doesn't work that way. In (our) reality, faith builds itself, even after many proofs to the contrary are shown. You believe aliens are going to visit us on August 25, 2019? When that doesn't happen, you will not start believing aliens do not exist and keep living as a sad, half-broken person. No, you will find a reason, an excuse, for why it hasn't happened, and move the date to some other occasion. True story, not a made-up example.

    Third thing is, the scene on the moon was a low point for me, not so much because of what happened, but because of how it was narrated. It was a Millarism. Which means, a total, anapologetical, inexcusable b******t. It seeks to impress us with a SECRET THAT WILL BLOW AWAY YOUR MIND, but is only superficially based on things before or after and could be anything, really. As if Aaron needed a logical explanation at all.


    *from the Big Two. But there are exceptions, of course
    Last edited by Paradox_Nihil; 08-24-2019 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Correct grammar!

  9. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_Nihil View Post
    It's modern America who doubts in itself, and the comic Thor only reflects that. And it's one of the reasons I'm not highly invested in it (and modern superhero comics in general). You see, I am not an American. I share some of its ideals, but putting it in the center of the universe is a bit too much for me. The world needs Thor... I mean, Superman... I mean, America. Of, course, you could say (American) comics have always reflected that, but, Kirby was never parochial - not even close - although he co-created Captain America. Of course, he is just one example - there were many others, too.

    Second thing is, faith doesn't work that way. In (our) reality, faith builds itself, even after many proofs to the contrary are shown. You believe aliens are going to visit us on August 25, 2019? When that doesn't happen, you will not start believing aliens do not exist and keep living as a sad, half-broken person. No, you will find a reason, an excuse, for why it hasn't happened, and move the date to some other occasion. True story, not a made-up example.

    Third thing is, the scene on the moon was a low point for me, not so much because of what happened, but because of how it was narrated. It was a Millarism. Which means, a total, anapologetical, inexcusable b******t. It seeks to impress us with a SECRET THAT WILL BLOW AWAY YOUR MIND, but is only superficially based on things before or after and could be anything, really. As if Aaron needed a logical explanation at all.

    Right there with you friend!

  10. #2335
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It was only that because of interference. It could have been more like Superior Spider-Man, a take on what Batman would be under different circumstances and with different morality, while exploring how the various cast members would cope with the changes and what this all says about who Batman is and isnít.
    But...that's what Knightfall was .
    You know, a bit like Jane as Thor, so in other words you wouldnít have enjoyed it as much but I would have liked it more.
    That doesn't really sound like how Jane as Thor was approached at all, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    We are still in the Legacy era technically but the early attempt of Legacy to assert classic characters with standardised outlooks and maintain Legacy numbering was a failure.

    Look at the recent direction in the MU. We are back to a whole slew of female focused books being launched, some younger focused books, new and innovative status quo choices for classic characters and generally a return to what so many retailers were claiming didnít sell. Except this time they know that the alternative did worse.
    I think Legacy ended the moment they started promoting "Fresh Start."

    The current direction feels more balanced compared to the Alonso tenure. I can't say for sure, but I think Marvel realized what works, what didn't, and are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

  11. #2336
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    I hope that when this is all over, Thor wakes up and says Odin's beard, what a nightmare!!!

  12. #2337
    Incredible Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THORPERION View Post
    Hey! Great points and analysis.

    Quite frankly it’s useless to engage with apologists over Aaron’s nonsense. They say one thing here and then switch it later. They say it’s a story about what it is to be Thor and “introspection” but then tell you it’s not about self doubt??? It just goes back and forth until they call you a misogynist because they can’t win against your logic, common sense, facts, and yes, ESTABLISHED canon. Sorry. Try as they might, somethings, no matter what a writer does, are NOT “retcon-able.”

    Save yourself the grief my friend.
    Why does it have to be about winning?
    If people enjoyed it, they enjoyed it.
    You didn’t - and that’s fair enough. There’s no need to try to prove them wrong. They obviously took something from it that you didn’t.

    Got to disagree on the retconable thing at the end there, too. A few years ago people wouldn’t have thought you could retcon Buckys death, and here he is. I mean look at House of X currently and the big retcon of Moira and her many lives.
    I’ve always thought writers should write what they want to write. They have their say on the character and then pass the torch.

    Back to Thor - I’ve been debating getting Aaron’s run for a while (the fact so many people discuss it - good or bad - tells me I should give it a read)...and I’m sure there will be good bits and there will be bits I don’t like.
    I understand you’re passionate about Thor and his history and dislike what Aaron has done with the character. Other people, however, have enjoyed it. Let them.

  13. #2338
    Fantastic Member Wall-Crawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    No you can’t see anything of the sort. Even in the places that appears to be true, they are a handful of self selected readers. How is that representative of “most fans”? There are equally places you will find almost universal praise from fans where they choose to do more than moan and instead actively review the books on their merits.

    All we can say is a very popular book has some loud dissenting voices against it. That would describe every popular book these days.
    Keep pretending it's just a few fans and you just might convince someone.

    I mean there's tons of videos on Youtube on how Thor has been ruined, hundreds of comments agreeing and expressing their dislike towards Aaron with valid criticisms explaining their reason, you have forums everywhere with fans voicing their complaints with a few exceptions (like you here, the only dude who actually defends Aaron's run) supporting it, most Thor fans I know from my LCBS do not like it, I'm part of massive PMs on several forums with fans of Thor who have supported the character for years, and I can tell you 90% of the fans I've encountered do NOT like this run, but sure, keep pretending it's a vocal minority and you just might convince someone, after all, we simply do not have the mental capacity to understand the greatness and the subtext Aaron is throwing at us...............right ?

    Also, man am I tired of the only argument the supporters have, "it's a popular book" or "it sells very well".................umm no it's not and it does not, you have been led to believe that by false merchandising and Marvel patting themsleves on the back, check the facts, this run has sold no more than previous runs, this run has done absolutely nothing that other runs have not accomplished, if anything, its sales should crush previous runs because of Thor's massive spike in popularity in recent years thanks to the MCU, but they are the same now as they've always been, get off the bandwagon, this isn't a succesfull run, it's a normal one.
    Last edited by Wall-Crawler; 08-24-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  14. #2339
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Why does it have to be about winning?
    If people enjoyed it, they enjoyed it.
    You didn’t - and that’s fair enough. There’s no need to try to prove them wrong. They obviously took something from it that you didn’t.

    Got to disagree on the retconable thing at the end there, too. A few years ago people wouldn’t have thought you could retcon Buckys death, and here he is. I mean look at House of X currently and the big retcon of Moira and her many lives.
    I’ve always thought writers should write what they want to write. They have their say on the character and then pass the torch.

    Back to Thor - I’ve been debating getting Aaron’s run for a while (the fact so many people discuss it - good or bad - tells me I should give it a read)...and I’m sure there will be good bits and there will be bits I don’t like.
    I understand you’re passionate about Thor and his history and dislike what Aaron has done with the character. Other people, however, have enjoyed it. Let them.
    Thing is, I’m not addressing them. They address me (and we who don’t like it) when we point out the flaws of logic and continuity as if we’re evil whatever’s just because we call out the nonsense spewed out by their pet author. If they enjoy their nonsense, great! Just don’t come here (a THOR ODINSON thread) defending that travesty of a “story” or mentioning that thief character at all. It is quite a legal petition. I’m not going to her thread and fighting them on why they should hate it. But here, they come to try and justify their story that is largely unwelcome on this thread. That’s all.

    About the retcons, I meant important retcons that are inherent to a character. Such as THOR is a name and not a mantle. Quite frankly there are no “mantles” for gods. You either are one or are not. Assuming ones power through artifacts is cool but you are in no way (nor will you ever legitimately be) a god. Other examples are Stark not being adopted. Wanda and Pietro being Magneto’s offspring. Uncle Ben dying. Bucky, is a character on his own. His death affected Cap but didn’t inherently make him who he is. Cap was already who he was going to always be by the time of that event.
    Last edited by THORPERION; 08-24-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  15. #2340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    Keep pretending it's just a few fans and you just might convince someone.

    I mean there's tons of videos on Youtube on how Thor has been ruined, hundreds of comments agreeing and expressing their dislike towards Aaron with valid criticisms explaining their reason, you have forums everywhere with fans voicing their complaints with a few exceptions (like you here, the only dude who actually defends Aaron's run) supporting it, most Thor fans I know from my LCBS do not like it, I'm part of massive PMs on several forums with fans of Thor who have supported the character for years, and I can tell you 90% of the fans I've encountered do NOT like this run, but sure, keep pretending it's a vocal minority and you just might convince someone, after all, we simply do not have the mental capacity to understand the greatness and the subtext Aaron is throwing at us...............right ?

    Also, man am I tired of the only argument the supporters have, "it's a popular book" or "it sells very well".................umm no it's not and it does not, you have been led to believe that by false merchandising and Marvel patting themsleves on the back, check the facts, this run has sold no more than previous runs, this run has done absolutely nothing that other runs have not accomplished, if anything, its sales should crush previous runs because of Thor's massive spike in popularity in recent years thanks to the MCU, but they are the same now as they've always been, get off the bandwagon, this isn't a succesfull run, it's a normal one.

    Friend, he’s living in a bubble. Why do you think he’s so adamant about fighting each and every one of our opinions. If it (Aaron’s story) was truly so “beloved” he wouldn’t care. He knows. Everywhere you look there is dissent. And on YouTube it’s in the hundreds of thousands. Much more than the units of FalseThor that actually sold. I mean, the story barely came out. There are limited amounts of copies and they’re in dollar bins??? That’s “beloved”??? Can’t wait for THOR’s movie to bomb. When it does they’ll say it’s everyones fault except the fact that it’s because of a Lady Thor.

    I welcome a female version of Thor. Separate from him and his hammer. Sif. Amora. Tarene. Brunhilde. Angela. Not that piece of trash Foster. Quite frankly, a female version of Thor is a disrespect to any of those lovely Asgardian ladies. They don’t need it.

    On your last point, it’s been recently well publicized that Disney was fudging the numbers on its properties to make them seem more favorable to stockholders. FosThor sales were lackluster being honest except for the first 4 issues. Now we know that those figures were probably fake too!
    Last edited by THORPERION; 08-24-2019 at 07:58 PM.

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