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  1. #1621
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Both quoted, because this is where I believe the disconnect is.

    Both of you are making huge assumptions that you know what is planned or exactly what the run is about. Yet both of these things I would disagree with fundamentally. Aaron is not telling a story that will eventually put him back where he was. Aaron is not suggesting that the hammer is what makes Thor.

    By being frustrated by either of those things, you are effectively making up your own reasons to be frustrated which are not based on the actual story.
    Okay then, what do you think Aaron is trying to say here? No malice or sarcasm, I genuinely want to know.

    To me, that is what Aaron is saying, The obsession with lifting it, the obsession with proving his worth to the hammer, his becoming a meandering self loathing drunk without it, giving up his name, Thor has major identity issues, and it all leads back to the hammer and proving himself to it and his father, and he can't no matter how hard he tries.

    I have a feeling that Aaron wanted to tell a story about power, godhood, duty, manliness, and self-worth using Jane and Thor, but it got a little lost in the weeds.

    Then again, maybe you're seeing something that I'm not.
    Last edited by Overhazard; 06-25-2019 at 08:40 AM.

  2. #1622
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I think we'll get him completely back to his old self by the end of Aaron's run. Besides that just being the way of comics, I think it was always the plan for Odinson to go through a prolonged down period followed by his reclaiming his worthiness but defining it in a different way. If you're not into the story in general or his depiction of a laid-low Thor in particular, I sympathize, because it's been a long second act. Knowing the third act is coming might not help much if you really don't like the second act.

    The Jane thing is another thing I do understand but don't agree with. I think it's pretty standard to put over a new character pretty strong. Not too often do we see "New version! Not quite as good as the old"! It's always "New and improved"! But even that is me really simplifying things... Jane had advantages in the very areas Odinson was struggling with, so they seem more pronounced. In those cases Jane had an insight and position that Odinson didn't have, through no fault of Odinson. I don't think it was a matter of always making Jane strong by making Odinson look weak, sometimes it was just that both things happened, without there being an intent to compare. Other times, certainly there was.

    I can see the view that Jane's character might have been better served by not excelling in the physical realm so much, so fast. Especially since it was never about physical strength, anyway. Having Odinson remain as the clearly better physical warrior could arguably be the better choice (although I do think Odinson's lack of physical accomplishments in this run has been drastically overstated).
    As I’ve admitted, I just got bored with run after 40 or 50 issues.

    For me, there were just too many unexplained plot developments...and as far as I could see all the main characters being written as wildly out of character.

    After thousands of years of Thor acting the same...fighting valiantly but mayhap over eating and over eating...for no very very convincing reason he suddenly becomes “unworthy”. At same time Odin...renowned for wisdom and courage..acts like a cowardly buffoon.

    Then for some reason Jane...not Steve Rogers, Captain Marvel, Ben Grimm..can suddenly lift the hammer...she is “worthy” after hero after hero hasn’t been. Why?

    Jane’s conversion from loving nurse to fearless ultra skilled warrior was utterly unconvincing. She just lifted the hammer and instantly became a fearless perfect warrior.

    I do imagine at some point after run Thor and Odin will start acting heroically again...but I don’t think Aaron’s run has deepened them as characters..I just think a future writer will start writing them again as most people would expect gods of valour and wisdom to act.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 06-25-2019 at 08:13 AM.

  3. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I do imagine at some point after run Thor and Odin will start acting heroically again...but I don’t think Aaron’s run has deepened them as characters..I just think a future writer will start writing them again as most people would expect gods of valour and wisdom to act.
    I certainly hope so!

  4. #1624
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Then for some reason Jane...not Steve Rogers, Captain Marvel, Ben Grimm..can suddenly lift the hammer...she is “worthy” after hero after hero hasn’t been. Why?

    Jane’s conversion from loving nurse to fearless ultra skilled warrior was utterly unconvincing. She just lifted the hammer and instantly became a fearless perfect warrior.
    Why? Because she was willing to sacrifice herself. Her cancer made her worthy. People who already have superpowers wouldn't necessarily be risking their lives by wielding the hammer. They wouldn't be killing themselves just by transforming into the God of Thunder!

    As for her personality change, that's easily explained, and it wasn't sudden. Odin wouldn't let her be with Thor because she was a mortal. So she went off and married someone else, even had a kid. Then her ex died, and she came back into Thor's life. By now, she was a doctor, not a nurse. Presumably she did some combat training off panel. She eventually got into Freyja's good graces and became Midgard's ambassador, and it's from there that she became the Goddess of Thunder.

  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Although the direct parallel that Aaron is clearly referencing is Journey into Mystery #83. In other words, the equation Jane is an equivalent of Blake was being set up right from the start. Thor was instantly physically powerful in that first appearance, despite Blake being lame.

    This was deliberately crafted to make us think about that early appearance and ask questions. Especially in the context of the later assertion that Blake never existed, and the even later assertion that actually he did. Aaron's core ideas rely upon this reflection. We are supposed to question what is going on and how it is happening. Having Jane weaker and less of a thunder deity wouldn't have provoked this line of thinking.

    She would just have been a pale shadow. A mere mortal carrying a hammer that gives her superpowers. Whereas making her claim to be a deity and over time prove this, makes us consider something fundamental about what a god is. Who Thor is. Insight into the answer will most likely be given tomorrow. From two angles. Young Thor's fight with Gor, and what Thor learns on the new Yggdrasill.
    Interesting points that I think I agree with. Honestly I'm not entirely sure how the whole Donald Blake/Odinson deal worked in current continuity. It's been looked at in several different ways, as you pointed out, and I'm not sure how it worked currently. Did Odinson trade places with Blake? Did he inhabit Blake's body? However it's said to have worked, "the power of Thor" going to Blake wasn't an issue, so I don't see why it's an issue (for some) that the power went to Jane. Both were worthy, both got powers. The questions you listed are much more interesting than any of that stuff, though.

    Totally agree that we are supposed to ask the questions you listed. That's one of the most interesting aspects of the current run. Coupled with the exploration of the relationship between mortals and gods, Aaron has asked several questions that are fascinating to attempt to answer imo. Gods don't like to be questioned and many mortals don't like to see them questioned, either.

  6. #1626
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Why? Because she was willing to sacrifice herself. Her cancer made her worthy. People who already have superpowers wouldn't necessarily be risking their lives by wielding the hammer. They wouldn't be killing themselves just by transforming into the God of Thunder!

    As for her personality change, that's easily explained, and it wasn't sudden. Odin wouldn't let her be with Thor because she was a mortal. So she went off and married someone else, even had a kid. Then her ex died, and she came back into Thor's life. By now, she was a doctor, not a nurse. Presumably she did some combat training off panel. She eventually got into Freyja's good graces and became Midgard's ambassador, and it's from there that she became the Goddess of Thunder.
    “Presumably she did some combat training off panel”...lol

    And..are we really to believe that Steve Rogers, Ben Grimm, Uncle Tom Cobley, etc, etc weren’t (and always were) willing to risk their life for the greater good??

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Why? Because she was willing to sacrifice herself. Her cancer made her worthy. People who already have superpowers wouldn't necessarily be risking their lives by wielding the hammer. They wouldn't be killing themselves just by transforming into the God of Thunder!
    It was heavily implied, multiple times, that Jane was acting as Thor so that she could die on her own terms. That being Thor was part of a death wish, an evasion of what she was facing and not an act of courage

  8. #1628
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Okay then, what do you think Aaron is trying to say here? No malice or sarcasm, I genuinely want to know.

    To me, that is what Aaron is saying, The obsession with lifting it, the obsession with proving his worth to the hammer, his becoming a meandering self loathing drunk without it, giving up his name, Thor has major identity issues, and it all leads back to the hammer and proving himself to it and his father, and he can't no matter how hard he tries.
    So that isn't malice or sarcasm? Certainly looks like a total caricature of the actual story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I have a feeling that Aaron wanted to tell a story about power, godhood, duty, manliness, and self-worth using Jane and Thor, but it got a little lost in the weeds.

    Then again, maybe you're seeing something that I'm not.
    How exactly did it get lost in the weeds? Point to a single arc that ignored or undermines the notion of 'what is a god' or 'what does it mean to be Thor' or 'what is the role of Asgard and Asgardians.' Which is incidentally how I would answer your first question.

    Every single arc has addressed these points. How effectively is up for debate and criticism, where most actual critics would argue very effectively. But even if one argues that some of the arcs were less successful, or less coherent (personally I would say the Hel arc was less coherent) that isn't the same as saying the premise wasn't addressed.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-25-2019 at 11:28 AM.

  9. #1629
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Jane is a terrible character who gained the greatest honors in Asgard that no Asgardian can achieve.

    I still remember that terrible cover where she says Step aside boys (Thor and War Thor). Let Thor handle this.

  10. #1630
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    “Presumably she did some combat training off panel”...lol

    And..are we really to believe that Steve Rogers, Ben Grimm, Uncle Tom Cobley, etc, etc weren’t (and always were) willing to risk their life for the greater good??
    I am pretty sure you know what the problem with this line of questioning is. These are stories. The Marvel Universe is not a real place where exact comparisons can be made. The job of Marvel is to make the world seem relatively coherent, while telling interesting stories that will necessarily contradict or undermine other stories. It has always been this way. Ever since the first time Spider-Man swung into books and acted totally out of character or Wolverine suddenly regressed into a five year previous state just because he was in someone else's book. Everyone always lauds this early consistency while totally ignoring the fact it was never consistent.

  11. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    As I’ve admitted, I just got bored with run after 40 or 50 issues.

    For me, there were just too many unexplained plot developments...and as far as I could see all the main characters being written as wildly out of character.

    After thousands of years of Thor acting the same...fighting valiantly but mayhap over eating and over eating...for no very very convincing reason he suddenly becomes “unworthy”. At same time Odin...renowned for wisdom and courage..acts like a cowardly buffoon.

    Then for some reason Jane...not Steve Rogers, Captain Marvel, Ben Grimm..can suddenly lift the hammer...she is “worthy” after hero after hero hasn’t been. Why?

    Jane’s conversion from loving nurse to fearless ultra skilled warrior was utterly unconvincing. She just lifted the hammer and instantly became a fearless perfect warrior.

    I do imagine at some point after run Thor and Odin will start acting heroically again...but I don’t think Aaron’s run has deepened them as characters..I just think a future writer will start writing them again as most people would expect gods of valour and wisdom to act.
    They were living unexamined lives. Yes Odinson fought well and often. But he liked fighting, he wanted to fight. He fought for glory, so Vikings would chant his name and he could bed women. He accepted worship as his birthright. He was good because gods are (mostly) good and he's a god, the end. Mortals were an interesting diversion, not a responsibility. But where does the idea that most gods are good come from? Is it really true? If mortals owe worship, what do gods owe in return? Do gods have power, receive power or give power? Once he started asking questions, the foundation started to crumble. He did start acting in ways he hadn't before, because he was thinking in ways he hadn't before. He was questioning the unquestioned and examining the unexamined.

    Digifiend pretty much summed up my thoughts on Jane becoming worthy. She didn't WANT to fight. She had literally everything to lose. She sacrificed. It wasn't transactional (I fight on your side, you give me worship) like Odinson.

    I talked about it a bit in my last post...I'm not totally clear on the mechanics of powers and skill and the hammer. As I understand it ( which could be totally wrong), you're worthy, you lift, you get the powers of Thor. Skill, battle tactics, the whole thing. But that part has never really interested me. Anyone who is more clear on that whole thing and is willing to explain? What's the most recent interpretation given in the books?

  12. #1632
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Interesting points that I think I agree with. Honestly I'm not entirely sure how the whole Donald Blake/Odinson deal worked in current continuity. It's been looked at in several different ways, as you pointed out, and I'm not sure how it worked currently. Did Odinson trade places with Blake? Did he inhabit Blake's body? However it's said to have worked, "the power of Thor" going to Blake wasn't an issue, so I don't see why it's an issue (for some) that the power went to Jane. Both were worthy, both got powers. The questions you listed are much more interesting than any of that stuff, though.

    Totally agree that we are supposed to ask the questions you listed. That's one of the most interesting aspects of the current run. Coupled with the exploration of the relationship between mortals and gods, Aaron has asked several questions that are fascinating to attempt to answer imo. Gods don't like to be questioned and many mortals don't like to see them questioned, either.
    The current state of Blake is not actually very clear cut. Everything we know is told to us in stories by unreliable people, mostly Odin. If we are to believe Odin's most recent statement on the fact, (in which he admits not telling the truth before) then he swapped the real Blake for a magical version when he sent Thor to Earth (to stop him dying before his fated role in Ragnarök) and kept the real Blake frozen in a cave (where he accidentally got murdered).

    What that tells us about Blake's worthiness is open for exploration because nobody has been there and explored it.
    (It does tell us Odin was a jerk who had no care about the supposedly admirable mortal he used and then didn't keep safe.)

    We have had two modern dealings with Blake. The first was JMS's attempt to bring him out of 'limbo' which strongly hinted that in a way Blake didn't die. Then Fraction, possibly wanting movie synergy, ruled that this version was actually just the magical simulacrum and pretty much put him back into a limbo state only this time as a disembodied head. And people claim Thor continuity is simple!
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-25-2019 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #1633
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I do imagine at some point after run Thor and Odin will start acting heroically again...but I don’t think Aaron’s run has deepened them as characters..I just think a future writer will start writing them again as most people would expect gods of valour and wisdom to act.
    yeah, no.

    I'm pretty sure both Thor and Odin are gonna be dump sh**s even after this.

    just look at WotR #6 preview and see what Thor says.

    absolutely horrendous.

    Aaron destroyed my enjoyment for Thor for good.

    it will take a Godtier writer and a Godtier retcon to salvage this.

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    They were living unexamined lives. Yes Odinson fought well and often. But he liked fighting, he wanted to fight. He fought for glory, so Vikings would chant his name and he could bed women. He accepted worship as his birthright. He was good because gods are (mostly) good and he's a god, the end. Mortals were an interesting diversion, not a responsibility. But where does the idea that most gods are good come from? Is it really true? If mortals owe worship, what do gods owe in return? Do gods have power, receive power or give power? Once he started asking questions, the foundation started to crumble. He did start acting in ways he hadn't before, because he was thinking in ways he hadn't before. He was questioning the unquestioned and examining the unexamined.
    Umm, you do understand that you're talking about Thor, and not Hercules, right?

    Because while Thor was far from perfect, he was raised with, and held himself to, certain standards. He was the prince, after all.

    And under Aaron, 'What is a God' goes unexamined, unanswered, still. Unless they're getting punked by mortals who instantly know better

  15. #1635
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    And under Aaron, 'What is a God' goes unexamined, unanswered, still. Unless they're getting punked by mortals who instantly know better
    yeah, this.

    Mortals are gonna show you how to do stuff.

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