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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    I want people to look at this picture and remember it.

    you won't see him like this anymore.
    God I miss Thor

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    How is having your favorite hero knocked down so he can heroically rise up not being a fan? If you want self flagellation then simply read your favorite stories that shows Thor "winning".
    Stories where the hero being knocked down only to rise back up are great, and a staple of the super-hero genre. We all love those stories, and I don't see anything in my post to suggest that it you like stories like that you are not a fan of a character. But that's not what I was talking about, and I don't think it's what a lot of us have been concerned with. We're bothered by fundamental detrimental changes to Thor, not temporary defeats or brief low periods of soul-searching; Thor suddenly not understanding Earth politics enough to tell right from wrong (not in Thor, but in whatever event that was), Thor basically being much stupider than he used to be, and what really bothers a lot of us - all this behaviour, including cheating on Jane, being retconned into his past. Aaron isn't writing Thor being a bit out of sorts because of traumatic events, we're seeing that in flashbacks Aaron is portraying him in much the same way. Thor isn't acting like an idiot or a jerk because of a lost hammer or sudden doubts of worthiness, Aaron's flashbacks tend to paint him in the same light. He seems to be reimagining Thor and saying that he's always been that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    To simply say fans of Aaron only love Jane is not only ridiculous but logically wanting.
    I didn't say all fans of Aaron only love Jane, I said I felt a lot of the support for Aaron's run was coming from people who really like Jane as Thor and are more than happy to see Thor written as less than he was, so he essentially acts as a supporting character and foil for Jane.
    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Moreover, your definition of "classy" is beyond the pail and it basically reads as "Aaron made Thor into a Trump voter!" Next you're gonna tell me Odin is actually a Men's Rights Activist and the "classy" thing to do is put the male heroes where they belong.

    But, what do I know? According to you I guess I'm not a Thor fan
    I'm not telling anyone that they're not a fan. If you love Thor then you're a fan. I wasn't looking to offend anyone.

  3. #153
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Yes, Jason Aaron's depiction of Odin is not totally without precedent. Thor is a long-running comic book, and we've seen several different depictions of Odin over time, some popular, some not so much. We've seen some great stories involving Odin, we've seen some bad stories, we've seen a whole bunch of stories that don't make a lot of sense as they conflict with previous stories and later stories.

    So my question is not "does this depiction of Odin have any basis in any previous Thor stories?", because at this point you can find all sorts of behaviour in most long-running characters - Captain America, for example, supposedly the poster-boy for goodness and morality for the MU, happily sent Carol Danvers off with the man who mind-controlled her into having sex with him and hijacked her vagina to use as a get-out-of-limbo-free card; no Cap fan actually wants to dip into that well for future depictions of Cap, though it would arguably make Steve Rogers a more complex, more human character, because it would lessen readers' respect for the character and his status, in universe and out, and more importantly, it would add a layer of feel-bad and shame to a character who is supposed to be an empowering hero. Cap's fans would be up in arms; the readers who find Cap too perfect to be a believable character, on the other hand, would probably praise the dirtying-up of the character, especially as it would make room for other heroes to take centre-stage. But do you really want to change a character to appeal to readers who aren't fans at the expense of those that are?

    And this is the thing: I think a lot of support for Aaron's Thor run is coming from readers who are not primarily Thor Odinson fans, and not fans of Odin at all. Many of the people praising Aaron's run have been brought in by Jane as Thor, and are primarily Jane's fans, not Thor's; Jane fulfils the role of wish-fulfilment hero, the powerful, smart, heroic character that acts as a stand-in for the reader, holding viewpoints that the reader empathises with, doing the things the reader would like to do, i.e. beating up the bad guy; they're quite happy to see Thor written as stupider, less competent, less sympathetic, because it helps give Jane-as-Thor a place and relevance she would not have if Thor Odinson was written as what I will call "Classic Thor" - smart, resourceful, sympathetic, and, yes... classy.

    And "classy" is what is missing from Aaron's depictions of Thor and Odin. It's not the only thing, but it is one of the most glaring things. Aaron has given us a redneck Thor and Odin: moonshine swillin', backward thinkin', no book-learnin', hillbilly horndogs. Look down on them, kids, they're not as sophisticated as you or I, but they are quite funny. Hel, I wouldn't be surprised if Odin's legendary sacrifice of his eye and his hanging nine nights on the world-tree were reinterpreted as drunken accidents.

    My question is "does this depiction of Odin give us a character that works for the position he fills, i.e. Asgard's God of Wisdom, ruler of the gods, and the man Thor has pledged his allegiance to?" I don't think he does. What I've seen of Aaron's Odin is a character is is not smart or sophisticated, and therefore when he does awful things there doesn't appear to be any real complexity at work, just stupidity. And stupid characters are not interesting. Same goes for Thor. Don't give the audience a hero that is stupider than they are, it's annoying. The classic green Hulk was supposedly stupid, but in his own book he actually was deceptively smart despite his limited diction, and since Marvel gave him Banner-level intelligence he hasn't revered back. Hulk fans don't want the character to backslide, it's devolution not evolution. Those of us who are Thor Odinson fans similarly don't want Thor stupider and less capable than when we became fans, and that is what we have been complaining about for years. It's a bad direction, and it's one that Marvel has been pushing Thor and Odin in since before Aaron came onto the scene. If you are going to give Odin a dark side, at least write him with Magneto-like complexity and depth - he's the God of Wisdom, for pete's sake.

    And yes, new fans are no less important than old, but this is the Thor Odinson Appreciation Thread, we're just like most of the other appreciation threads - we don't like our hero being short-changed or pushed in an unflattering direction. Yes, Aaron's run has been a quality run in that it has had great art and emotionally involving storylines, but what it generally hasn't done is exactly what is going to matter to Thor Odinson's fans most - it hasn't done the character justice, and it hasn't pushed him in a good direction. We've seen his credibility plummet and his character devolve, and Odin, whom he is tied to, has been similarly mistreated. As I said before, I feel a lot of the support for Aaron's run is coming from people who like Jane and Loki more than Thor, and while that is a perfectly valid viewpoint in other threads, in the Thor Odinson appreciation thread it's going to meet with opposition, imo.
    I love your post, thank you for voicing your opinion.
    It's funny because when I saw her behind on the glass at the end of the show, I thought, "That's where she needs to be. In captivity. Behind a glass in a lab somewhere that she can be studied like the psychotic specimen she is."

  4. #154
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But are we really seeing him rise up again? I feel like the Unworthy storyline would've been more about that if it wasn't just a mini and Jane's Thor story didn't completely take over the narrative.

    And that's even assuming you find Thor's fall from grace and losing his own name to be believable to begin with.

    That doesn't seem too far off from Aaron's Odin .

    This reminds me how much better Thor looks without the gold arm or hammer.
    Sure, but we all know how "comic hypertime" works; to us it's been years in comic time it's been like what a year? Not only that Aaron's not even finished, we have to wait for the rise and we all know it will happen, Mjolnir is in the sun and will return before the end and make Thor worthy again and who knows maybe his arm will grow back because of magic. Also people forget all of Thor mythos is wrecked right now their is absolutely no way in hel that Aaron leaves without resetting everything.

    For all we know he's written as a buffoon because he does not have Mjolnir and he learning not to be one without it (which I personally think is Aaron's point i.e. don't get too cocky because it can be taken away from you).

    I would think that would make him a more versatile God and hero.

    PS: OMG if Odin becomes a MRA, that would be pretty funny


    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Stories where the hero being knocked down only to rise back up are great, and a staple of the super-hero genre. We all love those stories, and I don't see anything in my post to suggest that it you like stories like that you are not a fan of a character. But that's not what I was talking about, and I don't think it's what a lot of us have been concerned with. We're bothered by fundamental detrimental changes to Thor, not temporary defeats or brief low periods of soul-searching; Thor suddenly not understanding Earth politics enough to tell right from wrong (not in Thor, but in whatever event that was), Thor basically being much stupider than he used to be, and what really bothers a lot of us - all this behaviour, including cheating on Jane, being retconned into his past. Aaron isn't writing Thor being a bit out of sorts because of traumatic events, we're seeing that in flashbacks Aaron is portraying him in much the same way. Thor isn't acting like an idiot or a jerk because of a lost hammer or sudden doubts of worthiness, Aaron's flashbacks tend to paint him in the same light. He seems to be reimagining Thor and saying that he's always been that way.


    I didn't say all fans of Aaron only love Jane, I said I felt a lot of the support for Aaron's run was coming from people who really like Jane as Thor and are more than happy to see Thor written as less than he was, so he essentially acts as a supporting character and foil for Jane.

    I'm not telling anyone that they're not a fan. If you love Thor then you're a fan. I wasn't looking to offend anyone.
    No offense, taken but when you write,

    "I think a lot of support for Aaron's Thor run is coming from readers who are not primarily Thor Odinson fans, and not fans of Odin at all. Many of the people praising Aaron's run have been brought in by Jane as Thor, and are primarily Jane's fans, not Thor's; Jane fulfils the role of wish-fulfilment hero, the powerful, smart, heroic character that acts as a stand-in for the reader, holding viewpoints that the reader empathises with, doing the things the reader would like to do, i.e. beating up the bad guy; they're quite happy to see Thor written as stupider, less competent, less sympathetic, because it helps give Jane-as-Thor a place and relevance she would not have if Thor Odinson was written as what I will call "Classic Thor" - smart, resourceful, sympathetic, and, yes... classy."

    That's saying something, right? Because the assumption being that if you like one you cannot like the other? I know it is not a generous reading, but it's not a generous take on people who enjoy Aaron's work.

    I too enjoy Thor as the exemplar hero in the MU, but we gotta be a little fair in regards to his writing. I brought this up in my Spencer's Captain America thread, but I finally read Spencer's Captain America run and loved it but if you were to believe the "internet" you would think if was the anarchist guidebook.

    The same can be said for Aaron's Thor (but not that extreme), you have to admit that just because people do not like how he is being written does not mean that

    1) others who do like it are not as good a fan

    2) dislike the character as he was written before

    3) or continue to want him to be written as he is written now; change is good as is variety

    I'm simply saying yes it can be frustrating that it hasn't changed in all these years, but think about how long he was being written the way you like: decades.

    A little temporary change will not destroy Thor, he survived and will continue to survive I think that's why you and I both love him.
    Last edited by charliehustle415; 02-15-2019 at 07:43 PM.

  5. #155
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Mjolnir is in the sun and will return before the end and make Thor worthy again and who knows maybe his arm will grow back because of magic. Also people forget all of Thor mythos is wrecked right now their is absolutely no way in hel that Aaron leaves without resetting everything.
    Mjölnir is destroyed fam, one of many great things that Aaron did...

    Old King Thor is without an arm during End Times so it's unlikely that his arm will grew back.

  6. #156
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    Mjölnir is destroyed fam, one of many great things that Aaron did...

    Old King Thor is without an arm during End Times so it's unlikely that his arm will grew back.
    I thought it was wrapped around Mangog and flew into the sun.

    Damn, you're right I totally forgot about King Thor. Could it be a alternative timeline?

  7. #157
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I thought it was wrapped around Mangog and flew into the sun.
    it blew up.

    Damn, you're right I totally forgot about King Thor. Could it be a alternative timeline?
    changing the present would destroy his future.

  8. #158
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    God I miss Thor
    true.

    honestly, I think they should just reboot the entire Norse Mythology and start from the start.

    that would be for the best.

  9. #159
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    it blew up.


    changing the present would destroy his future.
    Back to The Future rules then?

  10. #160
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    For all we know he's written as a buffoon because he does not have Mjolnir and he learning not to be one without it (which I personally think is Aaron's point i.e. don't get too cocky because it can be taken away from you).
    But that's part of my problem with Aaron's Thor, in that it seems like all of Thor's character and competence seemed to be relegated into Mjolnir, so that losing it drained all of that away when I feel like it really shouldn't.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But that's part of my problem with Aaron's Thor, in that it seems like all of Thor's character and competence seemed to be relegated into Mjolnir, so that losing it drained all of that away when I feel like it really shouldn't.
    Seriously. Thor lost his hammer early on in his Avengers Disassembled arc and did fine.

    Aaron's writing is to Thor, what Amazon Attacks was to Wonder Woman. Writing that directly undermines the mythos for short term story telling, at best.

    Tearing down a character is fine. Happens alot.

    The difference here though is that Thor's supporting cast, setting etc are all falling down with him, and keep finding new ways to hit rock bottom.

  12. #162
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    T-T-T-Toyfair

  13. #163
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Seriously. Thor lost his hammer early on in his Avengers Disassembled arc and did fine.

    Aaron's writing is to Thor, what Amazon Attacks was to Wonder Woman. Writing that directly undermines the mythos for short term story telling, at best.

    Tearing down a character is fine. Happens alot.

    The difference here though is that Thor's supporting cast, setting etc are all falling down with him, and keep finding new ways to hit rock bottom.
    agreed, that's just aron modus operandi, look what he did to doctor strange, x-men schism, thanos rising made no sense either, the stupid stuff with the phoenix force quire and wolverine, the eternals, all of thor mythos
    I really don't enjoy his writing at all
    Last edited by Daedra; 02-16-2019 at 03:26 PM.
    It's funny because when I saw her behind on the glass at the end of the show, I thought, "That's where she needs to be. In captivity. Behind a glass in a lab somewhere that she can be studied like the psychotic specimen she is."

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member Ken Ashcroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post


    changing the present would destroy his future.
    Changing the writer could destroy his future as well. There’s no guarantees that future writers would stick to the continuity that Aaron has seemingly established in his stories as they tend to have their own ideas on the characters and editors these days seem pretty relaxed on continuity issues.

    I would be fine if Aaron’s successor on the book decides to give Thor his arm back and maybe even have him grow his hair long again.
    Last edited by Ken Ashcroft; 02-17-2019 at 04:46 AM.

  15. #165
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Ashcroft View Post
    Changing the writer could destroy his future as well. There’s no guarantees that future writers would stick to the continuity that Aaron has seemingly established in his stories as they tend to have their own ideas on the characters and editors these days seem pretty relaxed on continuity issues.
    that's actually something we all hope for.

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