What do up with Aaron using villains like Ulik and Absorbing man to represent fans that question the sense of people taking thors name since it's not a mantle.
And then showing them having their faces bashed in.
Hmm, makes you think.
Considering Thor was Banished to Earth for being arrogant and needing to learn Humilty… I can easily accept terrible behavior from a young Thor.
Modern Thor however has learned his lessons and is a hero-born son of Asgard. he should not be falling into behavior I can tolerate with a 'young' Thor.
He wasn't actually shown as very arrogant, and certainly didn't behave terribly. The two instances of "arrogance" that Odin punished him for were not bad at all: Thor breaks the treaty with the giants by crossing into their lands chasing a murderous bird-demon, arguing that it will kill giants much as it has been killing Asgardians, and therefore crossing the border is justified; when he succeeds he is discovered by the giants, who ignore his explanation and try to kill him. Thor fights them off (without killing them) and leaves when Baldur shows up to tell him he must go. I'll put up a truncated version here:
The second incident is a brawl at an Asgardian tavern where Thor is accused of cheating at arm-wrestling; when he refuses to admit he was cheating (he wasn't), his opponent draws his sword and comes at Thor and the Warriors Three with his gang; they are easily defeated, and Thor leaves when he hears his father summon him:
Really the arrogance thing was to explain why Odin would exile Thor as Blake, something needed after Stan decided he could get more mileage out of Thor actually being Thor rather than a mortal with the powers of Thor. Young Thor was never shown as arrogant in Stan's stories, and contemporary Thor was likewise very noble.
Is it actually true that Thor was banished though? That’s not what Odin said. He said he was sent to Earth to protect him from being killed based on a soothsayer telling him he would die before his assigned role in Ragnarok and thereby doom creation. Now there was clearly a lesson of humility tied up in that, but it certainly wasn’t the canonical reason he was sent to Earth unless we decide to throw out much of modern Thor and wind back to the 90s.
Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-27-2019 at 03:06 AM.
Indeed the nuances and the way he deals carefully and with a light touch all of the issues that his detractors rail against is one the reasons I keep saying ‘why choose to interpret it negatively’. The nuance is there, the depth is there, the complexity of meaning is all in there, to take that and condense it into an argument of ‘alcoholic, hobo Thor’ or ‘Jane is the best Thor’ or ‘Aaron clearly hates Thor, Odin, Loki, canon’ is to throw away everything other than a surface impression that doesn’t even hold up on examination.
You pretty much summed up the whole argument with ‘They were living unexamined lives.’
The whole of Aaron has been an examination of the issues underlying Thor. Some will naturally not want such examination, but those of us that do, and indeed people like me that demand it, can find much to enjoy in his run.
Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-27-2019 at 03:02 AM.
Ah, the old 'they just don't get it' excuse.
See, the problem is that Aaron's Thor is even worse with nuance and a critical eye.
As I've said before, Thor's inability to lift the hammer legitimizes his poor self image during depression. It says that Thor's feelings of worthlessness are 'real', that he is in fact as worthless as he feels. A poor message, without a doubt.
And again, Aaron's unworthy arc (that never seemed to God damn end) didn't start with Thor doubting his own self worth. It started with him doubting the worth of his entire race (IE Gods) and it being legitimized by the hammer. As I have said before, that's basic racism. Racism, to be clear, against a fictional concept that is NOT a stand-in or metaphor for a real life group (and thus, not worthy (heh) of meaningful anger or outrage).
Lest we forget, that Thor has only proven his own worthiness and value, not that of Gods. As it now stands, Gorr's words now only exempt Thor
No overreaching arc can account for over 30 years of story telling. It would be too much to ask of writers, even in our modern era. But Aaron's themes falls short in both general overview, and myth itself.
That Asgard has saved the earth and universe has happened under nearly every long term writer of Thor. And in the myths, Odin was a benevolent God of wisdom. He isn't sex offender Zeus and Thor isn't Hercules, stumbling from one party to the next.
Thor's series has examined their lives in great detail before, Aaron is not the first. He's simply the first to ignore general canon to pigeon hole Thor as Herc, Odin as Zeus and Gods as utterly useless. Railroad plots are not the same as meaningful examination
Playing catch up a bit. Sometimes this thread is too fast for me.
We had an entire thread about this. It is kind of referenced in WotR #6 too. Did you get to “Unworthy Thor”? Thor didn’t do anything to become unworthy. He just discovered that the gods of the Marvel Universe are are by their nature and on balance unworthy. That necessarily included him. That sent him into a spiral of self doubt and depression before he got kidnapped and forced to confront some of that self loathing. He may never consider himself worthy again.
Again with the simplified characterisation of me and what I am saying. Just stop it please.
I have never made this claim about you or anyone else. All I am saying is IF and it’s a big if it seems, you or anyone actually tries reading the material with a generosity of spirit, and assume that Aaron is not somehow trying to ruin your day, the nuance is there for you to read. Clearly I am saying you are ‘choosing’ not to do this. That is your right. If you don’t enjoy it why should you? That is not the same as saying you are not able to, or even willing to. It is a genuine appeal.
Lovely work. There are a couple of tiny things I would take a different slant on, but that’s the nature of the beast. Well summarised and succinctly put.
I think there are some issues of legitimacy sprinkled in there which go some way to rounding out the concepts, and I think there may be more to examine in the moment he relinquished the last piece. He seems to own the plan later so he may have known why he was relinquishing it. Maybe it is about that last shred of self-doubt. What if the plan works and he can’t lift it.
Why are you comparing it to minorities when it's obviously closer to privileged people? The basic premise of Gorr's opinion on gods is that he thought they were perfect beings who would reward him if he kept the faith, only to discover that gods are powerful entities more like mortals who are flawed and who can do bad things. But they still get worshipped as something greater anyway. His title was butcher because he wanted to prove that they weren't above mortals by killing them and proving that they're all just meat like everyone else. Thor starting to believe it is Thor realizing that gods don't live up to expectations and don't deserve the privilege, because that's true, and that truth has him deny and devalue his own worth and heroism.
The end of the story, again, is him fully accepting that he cannot live up to Gorr's standard of perfection, but he can try his best regardless. He chooses to do that instead of letting that fact impair his ability to be a hero by obsessing over it and denying his value. He was partly there when Mjolnir got thrown into the sun and he still decided to be Thor, but he was still upset that he wasn't something he can't be. Which is why he could only carry the chip around his neck. Which is why he still goes into the sun for the hammer, because he still views it as a way to affirm who he is. Throwing the chip away is him abandoning the idea entirely to just do good. Young Thor lifts the hammer when he forgets about the hammer to just do good. It's not that he becomes worthy and the rest of the gods aren't, it's that he is still and will always be unworthy and that's ok. It's no excuse to not do his best and he accepts that fully. It is in the comic book. If your takeaway was "Gorr's words only exempt Thor." You didn't read yesterday's issues.
The gods are still flawed beings and many don't deserve their position, and the standard of "worthiness" established by the first villain is impossible to meet. Be yourself and be the best you can be. That's the story. The closest allegory would be to those at the top of society, not minorities at the bottom. And it still doesn't make much sense because we don't expect the richest and most powerful to be perfect, because it's not an allegory for a group of people. It's an examination of how religion works in a universe where deities are casually written as really powerful but normal characters.
I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate
You say privilege, I say legitimacy but the point still holds. The closest analogy for me is monarchy. The gods are bad monarchs. I know that argument sometimes misses its mark in countries that disposed of their monarchies.
We could say bad government I guess. Certainly there was a critique of isolationism in there for a while.
The gods of the Marvel Universe are looked up to, but rarely do those gods even bother to look down. Thor did. Perhaps he was able to wield Mjolnir precisely because of this? Aaron asks this question, or at least the more generalised version of it.
We now seem to have a clear answer that ‘the struggle is enough’. I doubt it will end with this. The messianic element may inevitably creep in, because Thor is an example to us, and now crucially also an example to the gods. This is something that has been addressed before in previous runs, but never so thoroughly and never without couching everything so as not to offend the religious, which is somewhat underestimating the religious I would say. Many religions have struggled and argued with ideas like this for centuries, so I imagine they can take a bit of handwringing from a comic.
Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-27-2019 at 05:22 AM.
aaron killed jesus
I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate