Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

Aaron was asking that very question though. It is a valid question even if you think you have a simple answer. He clearly disagrees with that simple answer. He clearly wanted to explore where that fine line is. He decided it was a lot further away from previous assumptions. That picking up the hammer with the intent of taking up the mantle does actually confer more than a few superpowers. He eventually comes down against your perspective and decides categorically that she became Thor. The gifting of the name by Thor Odinson was just part of that journey. She was already on that path regardless.

I don't think he really explored it all that much though. Maybe if you really tried looking into it, but I think he took a very simplified view of the concept.

For his story to work he needed to craft it in a way that allowed Odinson to hand over his name. He does it pretty quickly but not immediately and not without a whole issue examining the issues. The argument was had in that issue. No point still arguing about it now. It was a name, turns out it was more than just a name. It was an idea and a not only that, it was an idea manifest in a mortal form.

I still just found it all around nonsensical and silly. It was fine if we are taking on Jane as an individual but together with Thor himself and as part of his overall mythos I just could not buy into it and how characters responded.

Even making the claim now is pointless. Aaron decided, Marvel rubber stamped it. It is canon now.

It's comics. "Canon" is always dubious .

So you clearly don’t believe Malekith’s magical barrier worked then? The premise of a story is the question that drives it for the duration. The premise of Jane’s story was ‘if a mortal picks up the hammer in order to carry the mantle does that make them transform into Thor’ Aaron plugged away at that for the rest of his run, examining every side of the equation in great detail. His eventual conclusion as demonstrated by Malekith’s spell was ‘Yes’. She is Thor for as long as she carries the hammer. She was actually a goddess that conformed to the archetype of Thor. Which begs a further question, are gods just manifest Jungian archetypes? In some respects that is how the MU defined them. That is a much larger question that Aaron may not seek to answer but it is hanging there to explore. Although in Avengers he is asking a much wider question, ‘are superheroes in general manifest archetypes and where does that archetype come from?’

I mean, she's got his blonde hair, way of speaking, and the personality and attitude to match. So in that form she is definitely Thor.

Jeez, I wonder when Thor got named if they were expecting people could just pick up his name and archetype with just a grab of a hammer .

The name thing doesn't bother me so much, The impression that I got was that Thor centered a good portion of his identity around his hammer, and he spent so long trying to trying to be worthy, and when he became unworthy he lost himself. He went from being this regal, noble powerful figure to being a one-armed, shirtless, drunken shell of himself. He lost so much that he didn't feel worthy of his own name, so he gave it to someone who he felt more deserving, as he spiraled into an arc of self-loathing.

I think that's true of Aaron's interpretation of the character, but for me, looking at the wider character of Thor, I don't he placed as much value in his worthiness and identity in Mjolnir or was as obsessed with hammers.

The MU is not a real world. It was designed to reflect our world in interesting ways. That necessitates change. Everything will change. It is required to conform to an ideal Marvel decided on decades ago. Everything is written in the present. Not just the technology, and the way that retold stories will suddenly have mobile phones or social media. The characters will also reflect the present day. Again, not just which war they fought in. They will be modern. Always. That necessitates change. They can’t remain in character. That’s impossible.

It's kind of interesting to think that in relation to the Asgardians considering they're immortality and long-lived lives.

[kilderkin]

So you clearly don’t believe Malekith’s magical barrier worked then? The premise of a story is the question that drives it for the duration. The premise of Jane’s story was ‘if a mortal picks up the hammer in order to carry the mantle does that make them transform into Thor’ Aaron plugged away at that for the rest of his run, examining every side of the equation in great detail. His eventual conclusion as demonstrated by Malekith’s spell was ‘Yes’. She is Thor for as long as she carries the hammer. She was actually a goddess that conformed to the archetype of Thor. Which begs a further question, are gods just manifest Jungian archetypes? In some respects that is how the MU defined them. That is a much larger question that Aaron may not seek to answer but it is hanging there to explore. Although in Avengers he is asking a much wider question, ‘are superheroes in general manifest archetypes and where does that archetype come from?’

You misread me I think, I never said she wasnt deserving the name, just I feel she never craved it

As for the barrier I couldn't care less, Aaron wants to make her a real Thor (so to speak)

But like all others we go have held it, she isn't, Odin wasn't, not wasn't, etc,

His wish fulfilment does not change that

Thor is Thor irrelevant to holding the hammer, all other holders are just temporary substitutes

Even Odin tried this trick setting up red to take the fall for the real thor

It's just the side effect of odins enchanting, they might count for such things, but that doesn't make them the real deal

And I've already said, many writers when leaving a work try to reinforce the big idea they brought to it, Jane weilding the hammer was his, it's just a last hurrah to remind us how good his idea was, nothing wrong in that

Red wasn't Thor, neither was cap, the destroyer armour, Dargo, bill, eric, Odin, bor, neither is Jane

A worthy weilder, but it's not the same as being the actual Thor

Odins enchantment might make them count as a Thor for those points, but it's not the same as being Thor, Odin himself tried such a magic with red, didn't count then either really

[GodThor]

Thor looks even more ridiculous with that golden eye patch.

[Frontier]

Thor looks even more ridiculous with that golden eye patch.

He looks too much like Odin.

I don't think it works if Odin is going to still be around or if this isn't "final endgame Thor," which we all know it isn't because someone is obviously going to give him his eye and arm back at some point, because comics.

[Ascended]

He looks too much like Odin.

I don't think it works if Odin is going to still be around or if this isn't "final endgame Thor," which we all know it isn't because someone is obviously going to give him his eye and arm back at some point, because comics.

I love it.

This will all be undone eventually (probably sooner rather than later), and maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it, we can read it as the "Endgame" of this era and the next month it'll sorta be a fresh start. But I love the idea and will enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm a fan of Ewing's spin from Agent of Asgard (or whoever, if Ewing didn't bring this in). The gods are what they are; they can't change, and what they are is defined by perception. So, if the perception is "the All-Father has an eyepatch" then All-Father Thor should end up with an eyepatch. Perception becomes destiny. They're individuals, but not quite as....autonomous.....as we are. Labels mean a lot more. It's an interesting concept.

And ultimately I just think eyepatch Thor looks badass.

[Frontier]

I love it.

This will all be undone eventually (probably sooner rather than later), and maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it, we can read it as the "Endgame" of this era and the next month it'll sorta be a fresh start. But I love the idea and will enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm a fan of Ewing's spin from Agent of Asgard (or whoever, if Ewing didn't bring this in). The gods are what they are; they can't change, and what they are is defined by perception. So, if the perception is "the All-Father has an eyepatch" then All-Father Thor should end up with an eyepatch. Perception becomes destiny. They're individuals, but not quite as....autonomous.....as we are. Labels mean a lot more. It's an interesting concept.

And ultimately I just think eyepatch Thor looks badass.

Maybe divorced from how Aaron had been depicting him so far, and before Aaron had apparently made it a habit of mutilating Thor of body parts, I would be more open to it.

I don't even think he's been developed well into an All-Father.

[JackDaw]

Maybe divorced from how Aaron had been depicting him so far, and before Aaron had apparently made it a habit of mutilating Thor of body parts, I would be more open to it.

I don't even think he's been developed well into an All-Father.

Of course..one salient point going back to original mythology..is that Odin’s eye loss wasn’t a battle loss or accident.

It was a sacrifice he voluntarily made so he could gain knowledge and wisdom so he could become a better leader.

[GodThor]

He looks too much like Odin.

I don't think it works if Odin is going to still be around or if this isn't "final endgame Thor," which we all know it isn't because someone is obviously going to give him his eye and arm back at some point, because comics.

Odin is gonna be Thor's right hand man...

in what did Marvel comics turn into???

[The Cool Thatguy]

Of course..one salient point going back to original mythology..is that Odin’s eye loss wasn’t a battle loss or accident.

It was a sacrifice he voluntarily made so he could gain knowledge and wisdom so he could become a better leader.

Seems like he lost that wisdom recently...

[GodThor]

Seems like he lost that wisdom recently...

He lost that over 10 years ago.

[Frontier]

Odin is gonna be Thor's right hand man...

in what did Marvel comics turn into???

What would even be the point of that? It's not like Odin's been really worth listening too the past few years .

[GodThor]

What would even be the point of that? It's not like Odin's been really worth listening too the past few years .

LoL so true.

[Ascended]

Of course..one salient point going back to original mythology..is that Odin’s eye loss wasn’t a battle loss or accident.

It was a sacrifice he voluntarily made so he could gain knowledge and wisdom so he could become a better leader.

I just started reading a new collection of Norse myths (not new myths, just a new translation) and it claims that the stories which happen after Odin's search for wisdom don't actually refer to him as "One-Eye" so it's possible that he didn't actually have to pay that price.

Still hung from the tree though. Which is arguably worse.

Anyway, in the comics Odin has one eye, and I like the synergy of Thor losing an eye when he becomes All-Father as well. Even if its a wound taken in battle rather than a sacrifice like what Odin made, I like the idea of the role of All-Father sort of "demanding" the loss.

And no, Frontier, Aaron hasn't really sold it, but he's almost gone. Next writer just might make it work. Y'never know!

[JKtheMac]

Of course..one salient point going back to original mythology..is that Odin’s eye loss wasn’t a battle loss or accident.

It was a sacrifice he voluntarily made so he could gain knowledge and wisdom so he could become a better leader.

It is always dangerous to make these kinds of assumptions based upon the little evidence we have. Odin’s sacrifice is actually only referenced fully in much later and less reliable sources. Not to say it isn’t representative of a cultural perspective but we have very little context, and even viewing the event as a sacrifice may be a Christian / Classical interpretation.

[JKtheMac]

I don't think he really explored it all that much though. Maybe if you really tried looking into it, but I think he took a very simplified view of the concept.

This is a mainstream comic aimed at a wide audience, so of course he didn’t do this in the foreground. But it is there if you care to look for it.

I still just found it all around nonsensical and silly. It was fine if we are taking on Jane as an individual but together with Thor himself and as part of his overall mythos I just could not buy into it and how characters responded.

Very early on in the letters column Aaron explained he didn’t particularly care about these preconceived notions of what he should or could do. Obviously the editors agreed.

It's kind of interesting to think that in relation to the Asgardians considering they're immortality and long-lived lives.

Well perhaps it would make an interesting analysis. Going back over the whole history of the Asgardians and seeing where modern cultural relevance began to creep into their representation. I would suggest pretty early on with Kirby.