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  1. #1831
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    I hope it's a subject they let die honestly, at least in connection with Thor. The whole messianic theme is something done to death with the Silver Surfer. I just dont get Aaron's motivation for revisiting the subject with Thor...particularly by a professed atheist. As well, when church attendance world wide (Catholic church) is on the wane... I just dont get why he thinks this is interesting.

    To anyone?
    We are talking about a medium totally dominated by a few people’s ideas. Kirby stands over us looking down on his creation. Kirby was all about the interaction between deity and humanity, look at his F4 work. His Celestials. The New Gods. So much of his Marvel and DC work and much before. Kirby wrote Thor as a messiah. It will always be part of Thor. Writers and artists who admire Kirby will always go there. Who doesn’t admire Kirby?
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-04-2019 at 12:37 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  2. #1832
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THORPERION View Post

    It’s clear that Aaron wished he was as talented as Mr. Simonson. Beat by beat, Aaron has repeated what Simonson achieved but badly. However, the one thing I want to argue here the most is the fallacy that Foster was in any way a “Goddess.” She was and is not. Easiest way to point this out is that Thor is still powerful without his hammer. What happened when Foster let the hammer go? Was she still strong? Was she still beautiful? Did she still kick ass? Did she talk like and have Thor’s attitude? NO.
    You seem to be rejecting the whole point of the transformation when someone lifts the hammer. That is what the run with Jane hinged on. The story tells us she was a normal human being that transformed into a goddess when she lifted the hammer. Nobody is saying she was a goddess when she put the hammer down. Aaron is saying that when she picked it up she transformed into one. Specifically Thor.

    Now you are free to insist that when someone lifts the hammer they don’t turn into a god, but that is effectively rejecting the premise. One could equally claim Wolverine would have died when they put adamantium into his body. From that point on every story of his would no longer make sense. It’s up to the reader. Reject the premise and therefore find fault with the story at every turn, or accept the premise and therefore the internal logic of the story. Your choice.

    Again those of us arguing over the long term are happily chewing the cud over a story and have been doing that for years now. Just because it seems to you that some of us are ‘defending’ Aaron beyond what you think is reasonable doesn’t mean we are doing anything wrong. Peace.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #1833
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Ah, you mean the type of love that involves being smashed in the face with a hammer until you start bleeding, right?
    This is comics. It is also a joke. There is actually more to the joke IMO but I made my point elsewhere and don’t really have a problem with the joke. I get why some are apparently offended by it or think Aaron shouldn’t make those kinds of jokes. But hey, in general jokes are not meant to be taken seriously.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #1834
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This is comics. It is also a joke. There is actually more to the joke IMO but I made my point elsewhere and don’t really have a problem with the joke. I get why some are apparently offended by it or think Aaron shouldn’t make those kinds of jokes. But hey, in general jokes are not meant to be taken seriously.
    Not all jokes are done with the best intentions though...

  5. #1835
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Not all jokes are done with the best intentions though...
    I compare it to The Damned. When people used to walk up to them and say "the songs are not as good as they were when Brian James was writing them" they would say "why are you still here then?" and sometimes more offensive versions. They had a point.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  6. #1836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Well said and agreed. Didn't Aaron do something similar with Ghost Rider, making him female or some such?

    I agree too, all this talk of Aaron and what a talented writer he is. Maybe so.

    But was he a good writer for Thor?

    Methinks not!

    Man I wish Jurgens would take another stab!
    I liked jurgens Thor a lot

  7. #1837
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THORPERION View Post
    I have yet to see what Aaron has accomplished that is so revolutionary that some people here defend it as if they were him? The entire run was terrible. The only saving grace was the artwork. Even then, I’ll buy bad art with a great story. Great art and terrible story? Heck no! After issue 4 of the She-thor fumble I was out. I’ve read all the complaints and all the attempts by some to make this story seem anything other than a complete waste of time and an insult to Thor’s mythos!

    It’s clear that Aaron wished he was as talented as Mr. Simonson. Beat by beat, Aaron has repeated what Simonson achieved but badly. However, the one thing I want to argue here the most is the fallacy that Foster was in any way a “Goddess.” She was and is not. Easiest way to point this out is that Thor is still powerful without his hammer. What happened when Foster let the hammer go? Was she still strong? Was she still beautiful? Did she still kick ass? Did she talk like and have Thor’s attitude? NO.

    Therefore she was never a “goddess”. It’s sad that some here argue over and over and make long and over analyzed posts about mediocre writing to try and prove a point that is as plain as the nose on their face! Beta Ray Bill is not a deity. Nor was Red Norvell. The closest a mortal got to being the actual God of Thunder was Eric Masterson, of whom Aaron even stole the face-masked helmet that he gave Foster. Masterson actually had Thor’s body while Thor was in exile and he actually controlled it. But even he let go of the hammer and became Eric again. So, how the heck can someone even argue that Foster is an actual “goddess” when she dies more every time she uses the hammer and looks like the embodiment of death when she’s not wielding the hammer?!

    Thor had stories where he was sick and his body was emaciated but he was still a force to be reckoned with! Foster, without the hammer, was nothing. In fact, the biggest mistake Aaron made was to make Foster so adept at using the hammer. By doing this he both made her a phony and destroyed her attempt at a heroes tale. Why? Simple. If she was so much of a “goddess” why did she continually talk to Mjolnir and have him do everything for her? It fought her battles! It told her when and where to go? Where a “Thor” was needed. She never guided the story. She was led every bit of the way and like it or not she is cast in HIS (Thor’s) image. Forever his inferior. No matter what. Same as all the other characters who bare Thor’s look. Funny how Cap never took his look huh?

    Further, why would she talk to and ask the “Mother of Storms” to grant her this, that, and the other? Why was there even a Mother Storm created? To justify Foster’s effectiveness that’s why. That issue added absolutely nothing to the story other than an excuse for Foster’s phony prowess. That and to make men (Odín) the villains.

    So, the real reason for this story was to apologize to the SJWs for having Thor be such a powerful and masculine character. That’s the truth. The point of the entire story is that men are bad. Women are better. That’s it. Women had no business being at the forefront of this “what makes you” THOR (only birth) story unless it was Sif or Gaea. The woman who bore him and gave him his power (power that the hammer does not wield by the way) and the woman who shared his thoughts and bed. It’s Sif who should’ve wielded the hammer. That would’ve been awesome! But no. The atheist had to make his point about humanity being better than the gods.

    Thor is the epitome of nobility. The bastion of all that is good! Self sacrifice is no stranger to this deity even when he has no reason to do so to save an ungrateful humanity. Jurgens’ run explored the worship aspects towards gods. When people prayed to Thor, he listened and failed in properly managing the needs of his believers ending up making wars and zombies out of the needs he was asked to fulfill. Imperfection of the gods: check!

    So now, what did this alleged “incredible author” teach us about Thor that we didn’t know before? NOTHING. Not a damned thing! And that’s the truth.
    nicely said.

  8. #1838
    Incredible Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THORPERION View Post
    I have yet to see what Aaron has accomplished that is so revolutionary that some people here defend it as if they were him? The entire run was terrible. The only saving grace was the artwork. Even then, I’ll buy bad art with a great story. Great art and terrible story? Heck no! After issue 4 of the She-thor fumble I was out. I’ve read all the complaints and all the attempts by some to make this story seem anything other than a complete waste of time and an insult to Thor’s mythos!

    It’s clear that Aaron wished he was as talented as Mr. Simonson. Beat by beat, Aaron has repeated what Simonson achieved but badly. However, the one thing I want to argue here the most is the fallacy that Foster was in any way a “Goddess.” She was and is not. Easiest way to point this out is that Thor is still powerful without his hammer. What happened when Foster let the hammer go? Was she still strong? Was she still beautiful? Did she still kick ass? Did she talk like and have Thor’s attitude? NO.

    Therefore she was never a “goddess”. It’s sad that some here argue over and over and make long and over analyzed posts about mediocre writing to try and prove a point that is as plain as the nose on their face! Beta Ray Bill is not a deity. Nor was Red Norvell. The closest a mortal got to being the actual God of Thunder was Eric Masterson, of whom Aaron even stole the face-masked helmet that he gave Foster. Masterson actually had Thor’s body while Thor was in exile and he actually controlled it. But even he let go of the hammer and became Eric again. So, how the heck can someone even argue that Foster is an actual “goddess” when she dies more every time she uses the hammer and looks like the embodiment of death when she’s not wielding the hammer?!

    Thor had stories where he was sick and his body was emaciated but he was still a force to be reckoned with! Foster, without the hammer, was nothing. In fact, the biggest mistake Aaron made was to make Foster so adept at using the hammer. By doing this he both made her a phony and destroyed her attempt at a heroes tale. Why? Simple. If she was so much of a “goddess” why did she continually talk to Mjolnir and have him do everything for her? It fought her battles! It told her when and where to go? Where a “Thor” was needed. She never guided the story. She was led every bit of the way and like it or not she is cast in HIS (Thor’s) image. Forever his inferior. No matter what. Same as all the other characters who bare Thor’s look. Funny how Cap never took his look huh?

    Further, why would she talk to and ask the “Mother of Storms” to grant her this, that, and the other? Why was there even a Mother Storm created? To justify Foster’s effectiveness that’s why. That issue added absolutely nothing to the story other than an excuse for Foster’s phony prowess. That and to make men (Odín) the villains.

    So, the real reason for this story was to apologize to the SJWs for having Thor be such a powerful and masculine character. That’s the truth. The point of the entire story is that men are bad. Women are better. That’s it. Women had no business being at the forefront of this “what makes you” THOR (only birth) story unless it was Sif or Gaea. The woman who bore him and gave him his power (power that the hammer does not wield by the way) and the woman who shared his thoughts and bed. It’s Sif who should’ve wielded the hammer. That would’ve been awesome! But no. The atheist had to make his point about humanity being better than the gods.

    Thor is the epitome of nobility. The bastion of all that is good! Self sacrifice is no stranger to this deity even when he has no reason to do so to save an ungrateful humanity. Jurgens’ run explored the worship aspects towards gods. When people prayed to Thor, he listened and failed in properly managing the needs of his believers ending up making wars and zombies out of the needs he was asked to fulfill. Imperfection of the gods: check!

    So now, what did this alleged “incredible author” teach us about Thor that we didn’t know before? NOTHING. Not a damned thing! And that’s the truth.
    Not arguing against your over all stance, but I'm compelled to nitpick this point; Red Norvell fused with a clone of Thors divine essence... so he actually became a god.
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  9. #1839
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Not arguing against your over all stance, but I'm compelled to nitpick this point; Red Norvell fused with a clone of Thors divine essence... so he actually became a god.
    Isn't that a human god hybrid ish, more like an actual demigod, if we're picking

  10. #1840
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Talking Happy Thor's Day!

    Journey into Mystery #106 Jul 1964
    Thor's battle against the Cobra and Mr. Hyde continues in "The Thunder God Strikes Back"
    Last issue, Thor had chased Mr. Hyde and the Cobra into a "Heavy Machine Show"
    that exhibited various large devices, one of which Cobra had used to grab Thor's hammer.
    This issue picks up mere moments after last issue's story, where Thor's 60-second time limit is rapidly running out.
    Causing a quick distraction, Thor hides in the fleeing crowd of bystanders, just as he is forced to change into Dr. Blake.
    As police surround the show building, Blake is unable to retrieve his walking stick from the machine,
    and thus cannot change back into Thor. When Mr. Hyde threatens to attack the crowd if Thor doesn't reappear,
    Blake offers to find Thor for them, if they will retrieve his walking stick from the machine.

    When the Cobra fails to retrieve it, Mr. Hyde rips open the machine and gives Blake his cane. Blake charges into the crowd again,

    and uses their fleeing panic for cover as he changes back into Thor.

    During his battle against both the Cobra and Mr. Hyde, the police storm the building, just as Thor has his foes on the ropes.

    Mr. Hyde escapes by changing into his alter ego of Calvin Zabo. After the Cobra is apprehended by the police,
    Thor searches for Mr. Hyde, little knowing that Hyde as Zabo is following him.

    Zabo changes back into his guise of Mr. Hyde and attacks Thor when he least expects it, knocking Thor's hammer from his hand.
    Thor decides that he can defeat Mr. Hyde with his bare hands before the 60-second limit on his powers runs out.
    Thor takes advantage of Mr. Hyde's temper to defeat him, and then turns him over to the police.

    Changing back to Donald Blake, Thor returns to his office to spend time with Jane Foster. Jane storms out on Blake,
    after hearing on television the story of how Blake "betrayed" Thor, by "aiding" Mr. Hyde and the Cobra.

    Slamming the door behind her, Foster leaves Blake wondering about the price he paid in order to defeat his foes.

    Script by Stan Lee, pencils by Jack Kirby, inks by Chic Stone
    Imperius Rex!
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  11. #1841
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Tales of Asgard back-up
    "Balder the Brave!"

    This flashback tale of the early days of Asgard focuses on Balder the Brave. In this story, he is brought to the court of Odin
    to answer for the fact that during a recent battle against the Storm Giants, Balder deserted his comrades.
    Balder explains that during combat, he saw a bird fall from its nest, so he had left the battle to return the bird to its mother.
    Furious that Balder would abandon a battle for such a deed, Odin orders Balder to face the test of mortal death,

    which Balder agrees to take in spite of the other warriors of Asgard's protests.

    The test requires that Balder stand in front of a line of soldiers who would attempt to kill him without his resistance.
    First Odin orders Tyr, master archer of Asgard, to fire an arrow at Balder.

    The unflinching Balder is saved at the last minute when a hawk swoops out of the sky and stops the arrow from hitting Balder.

    Odin orders Honir to throw a spear at Balder,

    which is stopped by a sudden sprouting of vines from the ground, and again Balder does not flinch.
    Then Odin orders Thor to strike down Balder with his hammer.
    As Thor approaches to strike Balder down, the warrior still does not move, prompting Odin to stop Thor.

    Odin reveals that he summoned the hawk and the plant to save Balder at the last minute of each attack to test his bravery.
    Having passed Odin's test, Odin rewards Balder with the gift of invincibility, and has him hailed as Balder the Brave.

    Script by Stan Lee, pencils by Jack Kirby, inks by Vince Colletta
    Imperius Rex!
    http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/.../74396-9Bk.jpg
    It's clobberin' time! Hulk is strongest one there is! Have at thee!
    http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/...74396-51Bk.jpg
    I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice.
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  12. #1842
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I am not equating isolationism to don’t care, but it was a step in that direction. By its very nature, isolationist means you either ignore problems outside your own system, or only respond with your own interests in mind. Cul was closing borders, and refusing to get involved in the war. He wanted to actively stifle the council too. The people of Asgard were slowly moving towards a police state out of ‘fear’. Cul wanted to protect everyone in his care and chose a very extreme way of doing it.
    I think some of that is a very negative view of isolationism or how I felt Odin was handling it. Surprised to see a positive reading of what Cul was doing to be honest.
    I am not convinced the Asgardian’s are worshipped directly very often in the MCU. That’s not actually necessary for the story is it? This is about how the gods shape themselves, what they consider their role is, and how it conforms to what mortals think of them and need from them. Humans, or at least proto-humans shaped them to be responsive. What happens when humans stop believing in the gods of Asgard but at the same time know they exist and are gods? What is their role then? Thor would probably say it doesn’t matter. That they should still try and be worthy of them. Help them and support them. Try and make their lives better. Thor has always done that.
    I don't disagree, not that I think the relationship between Asgardians and humans is going to change that much moving forward.
    I presume you are up to date with Thor comics. If not then sorry that’s perhaps a spoiler. Or maybe you were not invested enough in the issue to realise that was the message. But yes it turns out Cul was repressing his real nature and had allowed himself to be turned into one of the dark shadow aspects of love. Fear. This is a subtle call back to the gods that Thor finds murdered by Gorr in TGOT.
    I already got the gist of it but not really sure I'll buy it when I read it.

  13. #1843
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think some of that is a very negative view of isolationism or how I felt Odin was handling it. Surprised to see a positive reading of what Cul was doing to be honest.
    We live in polarised times. Point out that Odin and Cul took an isolationist stance and some will immediately say ‘so they are being cast as villains then’. I would reject that. The whole point of stories about gods or magical creatures, or superheroes, is that we can explore ideas removed from the real world. They are folk tales. They are about reflection. Asking who we are. Some want to claim it is about escapism but that only drifted into the debate with Disney cartoons. Compare for example Cinderella in Disney and in Pentamerone.

    Odin and Cul are being used as antagonists but they are not villains. We naturally think Cul is a villain because he tired to destroy the world. In this story he is not quite so clear cut. He seems to be the initiator of the isolationist policy. He seems to have persuaded Odin. However, he goes further. He even tries to keep his actual actions from Odin. When Odin returns he considers Cul to have betrayed him. Why? What exactly did he do that Odin didn’t already know? He manipulated the truth and kept things from Odin. He did things in Odin’s name that Odin wouldn’t have done. This is not really saying isolationist policy is evil, it is saying evil can emerge if you are not transparent with power. Even for understandable reasons.

    Isolationism is understandable and arguable. It is anathema to world wide capitalism, but that’s a debatable ideal. We have negative views on isolationist policy because we worry about world wars and the 40s, and because the press are biased towards capitalism. Good reasons to argue against it but not proof that it is evil. Casting it as evil only polarises debate. We should try and resist polarising stories because we will loose their meaning. Everything becomes too tainted with reality. Reflect reality yes. Ask questions and even offer views in stories. But don’t say ‘this is the same’. If it was the same it would be a political essay not a folk tale.

    Aaron clearly has a view on what happens if Asgard closes itself off completely and forever. We see it in God of Thunder #1. We end up with gods called Hoggscarr the Harsh, Krawskin the Cruel, Lady Vile the Goddess of Atrocities, Lord All-Blud the Inexorable and his thirteen sons by thirteen brides. I imagine those last two are Lady Freyja and Odin analogs. Who knows, Thor may be Hoggscarr and Cul may be Krawskin. This is a clear stance against the danger of isolationism, but the story at least acknowledges why it might seem logical and why the motive might be protection and indeed love.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-05-2019 at 03:24 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #1844
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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  15. #1845
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    I continue to really not dig how Thor is written in Avengers.

    (And look. Thor is all over his hammer again. What a lesson was learned).

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