Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[JKtheMac]

Agreed there likely wouldn't be much love for Odin... He was almost as challenged as Odinson, but whereas Odinson was sympathetic in a lot of ways, and arguably didn't purposely do anything wrong with malicious intent, there's not a lot to like about Odin imo.

Some of us still love the old bas$%^d.

[GodThor]

They probably hate Odin as much as Jane does .

Aaron really destroyed Odin beyond repair.

[charliehustle415]

I never said it would work. But that has been Disneys target group for some time.

What about Jane Thor did you like?

Generally speaking, I'm a big fan of Aaron's run overall because he brought the mythos behind Thor to the forefront. The Nine.. ahem Ten realms, the fantastical heroes and menaces, and most importantly the family dynamic between the gods i.e. he familial issues with Thor and his cohorts. Moreover, people tend to forget that in ancient myth the heroes always have to do a trial to prove their worth (see Herakles and his 12 labors) and being a history buff I love it. Thor must be brought down before he can rise again.

Specifically for Jane, she was the exemplar of what Thor needs to be. Thor was a born deity, so he took it for granted; Jane became worthy because of her character. She wanted to be the goddess that was mortal and became immortal; yet she gave it up when it was needed against the Mangog. Thor in turn took her lead and sacrificed himself to win the War of The Realms.

This is why Aaron has the Three versions of Thor the Viking one who is totally ignorant of worthiness, the present one who is re-learning what it means to be worthy, and King Thor who is not only worthy but also recognizes the true weight of said worthiness (this is why he recreates the Earth and repopulates it and tries to protect it from enemies).

I completely understand your frustration with the current status quo with Thor and now the MCU; but this has been the biggest character growth in the Thor mythos since probably Straczynski's run and his run was 10 years ago. This is going to be the new status quo for a very long time, especially because now it has been cemented in the MCU.

[JKtheMac]

I completely understand your frustration with the current status quo with Thor and now the MCU; but this has been the biggest character growth in the Thor mythos since probably Straczynski's run and his run was 10 years ago. This is going to be the new status quo for a very long time, especially because now it has been cemented in the MCU.

Very much so. I was just reviewing some of JMS’s work today and it is very clear that he set up modern Thor, and it seems pretty clear to me that Aaron has set things up for a long while to come. I felt like it was needed after a few years of less clear storytelling that for me often undid some of the good work JMS gave us.

In the intervening period we had the classic that was JitM by Gillen, but apart from this there was less emphasis on building the mythic and setting potential of Thor.

Aaron told a great world building story, all the while, clarifying some things about Thor that provide a more solid base, like not taking worthiness for granted, a clear emphasis on gods needing to be legitimate and involved with the realms, a shift back to Asgard instead of Asgardia, an implication that gods can embody concepts by their actions not just by their assigned role.

Then the Jane story itself evokes the old JitM and early Thor stories. The sheer aspirational joy of an ordinary mortal getting to be a god.

[charliehustle415]

Very much so. I was just reviewing some of JMS’s work today and it is very clear that he set up modern Thor, and it seems pretty clear to me that Aaron has set things up for a long while to come. I felt like it was needed after a few years of less clear storytelling that for me often undid some of the good work JMS gave us.

In the intervening period we had the classic that was JitM by Gillen, but apart from this there was less emphasis on building the mythic and setting potential of Thor.

Aaron told a great world building story, all the while, clarifying some things about Thor that provide a more solid base, like not taking worthiness for granted, a clear emphasis on gods needing to be legitimate and involved with the realms, a shift back to Asgard instead of Asgardia, an implication that gods can embody concepts by their actions not just by their assigned role.

Then the Jane story itself evokes the old JitM and early Thor stories. The sheer aspirational joy of an ordinary mortal getting to be a god.

Totally agree, the thing that really chaps my hide is this false dichotomy being thrown around that if you are a Jane fan then you cannot be a Thor Odinson fan. We can be both, and being a fan of one doesn't mean we like the other lose their shining star.

[Electricmastro]

Interesting choice for a Phase 4 movie.

[Frontier]

I'm a Jane fan too and I'm a massive Thor fan.

The thing is, one can have a problem with a story but that doesn't diminish the overall appreciation one has of a character.

See, my issue is having problems with it on a story level and feeling like, even if unintentionally, it's trying to hurt my appreciation of one of my favorite characters by writing them badly.

I find it hard to believe that thousands of new fans came on board to read about Jane, for example, and yet it was very popular and a very long run by modern standards.

So wouldn't that mean the former is true?

Some of us still love the old bas$%^d.

I don't think Aaron gives you much reason to...other then he's relateable as a misogynistic, curmudgeon, foolish father figure and symbol of the patriarchy, I guess?

Generally speaking, I'm a big fan of Aaron's run overall because he brought the mythos behind Thor to the forefront. The Nine.. ahem Ten realms, the fantastical heroes and menaces, and most importantly the family dynamic between the gods i.e. he familial issues with Thor and his cohorts. Moreover, people tend to forget that in ancient myth the heroes always have to do a trial to prove their worth (see Herakles and his 12 labors) and being a history buff I love it. Thor must be brought down before he can rise again.

I think Aaron's prominence and popularity definitely put a bigger spotlight on Thor and his mythos. I just wish I enjoyed how he handled those elements enough to be glad for it.

"cohorts" mean the Odinson family? Of his supporting cast, the only one I would say had any significant character focus past the occasional panel was Volstagg, and at times it seemed like he too was being replaced by a female version of himself .

I'm not against a hero going through a trial to prove their worth, I just argue against it being believable with Thor at this period in his life and with the way Aaron went about it. Especially when his focus on building Thor back up again was as spotty and roundabout as it was.

Specifically for Jane, she was the exemplar of what Thor needs to be. Thor was a born deity, so he took it for granted; Jane became worthy because of her character. She wanted to be the goddess that was mortal and became immortal; yet she gave it up when it was needed against the Mangog. Thor in turn took her lead and sacrificed himself to win the War of The Realms.

Which was basically...himself.

I don't think Thor took his godliness for granted.

This is why Aaron has the Three versions of Thor the Viking one who is totally ignorant of worthiness, the present one who is re-learning what it means to be worthy, and King Thor who is not only worthy but also recognizes the true weight of said worthiness (this is why he recreates the Earth and repopulates it and tries to protect it from enemies).

I really don't like young Thor.

I completely understand your frustration with the current status quo with Thor and now the MCU; but this has been the biggest character growth in the Thor mythos since probably Straczynski's run and his run was 10 years ago. This is going to be the new status quo for a very long time, especially because now it has been cemented in the MCU.

What character growth? The whole point of the story was Thor basically acting like himself again. He really didn't change at all, and his new understanding of worthiness...doesn't really change anything unless it justifies him acting like Aaron's Thor because he doesn't have to be "perfect."

If anything we've seen less character growth and more character shift to fit a story.

Aaron told a great world building story, all the while, clarifying some things about Thor that provide a more solid base, like not taking worthiness for granted, a clear emphasis on gods needing to be legitimate and involved with the realms, a shift back to Asgard instead of Asgardia, an implication that gods can embody concepts by their actions not just by their assigned role.

I'm really not a fan of Aaron's archetypal storytelling.

[JKtheMac]

So wouldn't that mean the former is true?

The floppy market has not suddenly seen a huge influx of new readers so no, clearly not. I imagine the people that have bought the comics have mostly been middle aged men just like any comic. Yes there is a possibility that plenty of other demographics that also already buy comics bought them too, but are they new fans, casual fans, lapsed fans, general Marvel fans that like to read what’s popular, how can we ever know? Also the general demographic is anecdotally coming down, so maybe it was reaching that general market.

As for trades in the book channel and digital then all bets are off, but I wasn’t really referring to them because we don’t know how popular anything is in those aside from some very general stats. Clearly Thor was hitting the heights of the digital charts, whatever that means.

[charliehustle415]

Which was basically...himself.

Yup, I totally agree; remember he wasn't himself because what Gorr said wrecked him. Thor needed to be re-inspired again and Jane was the one to do it.

[Frontier]

Yup, I totally agree; remember he wasn't himself because what Gorr said wrecked him. Thor needed to be re-inspired again and Jane was the one to do it.

I get that's how it's supposed to be on-paper, I just don't think Thor came off very well because of it.

[Overhazard]

Maybe a question Jason Aaron asked himself when writing this was "Can an immortal have a midlife crisis?" or "Can a god have a crisis of faith?" Even though Thor looks young-ish, he's millennia old, and he had a really strong sense of who he was, until the whisper, when he became unworthy he lost himself, he lost faith in himself and Jane had to become Thor, to remind Thor of who he was.

[JKtheMac]

Maybe a question Jason Aaron asked himself when writing this was "Can an immortal have a midlife crisis?" or "Can a god have a crisis of faith?" Even though Thor looks young-ish, he's millennia old, and he had a really strong sense of who he was, until the whisper, when he became unworthy he lost himself, he lost faith in himself and Jane had to become Thor, to remind Thor of who he was.

Kind of. I am not a big fan of the theory that Jane showed Thor how to be Thor, I don’t believe that was the main thrust of Jane’s story but the rest is a valid interpretation.

[charliehustle415]

Maybe a question Jason Aaron asked himself when writing this was "Can an immortal have a midlife crisis?" or "Can a god have a crisis of faith?" Even though Thor looks young-ish, he's millennia old, and he had a really strong sense of who he was, until the whisper, when he became unworthy he lost himself, he lost faith in himself and Jane had to become Thor, to remind Thor of who he was.

This was my interpretation of what Aaron was going for.

Kind of. I am not a big fan of the theory that Jane showed Thor how to be Thor, I don’t believe that was the main thrust of Jane’s story but the rest is a valid interpretation.

Jk, what do you think the main thrust of Jane's story is?

I haven't heard or read many as to what the purpose of Jane is, thematically speaking.

[THORPERION]

In the recent interview Hickman did with Marvel Online he pretty much describes his process and it sounds remarkably like the process Aaron uses to me. Maybe you are seeing a distinction between them that isn't there.

There is a BIG difference. Hickman builds on history. Aaron does not. Bringing in “old toys” does not a [Thor] historian make. Biggest difference: look at Thor’s portrayal in Hickman’s Avengers tale! No arm. No hammer. Thor is still Thor. And that’s where Aaron and his story fell flat on their faces. If there is ONE thing about Thor it’s that nothing, no matter how tough, or bad, PARTICULARLY when it comes to himself stops him from being the HERO. Hickman got it. Even when he didn’t put him in that position. And “Gorr was right” is nothing to be depressed about. The fact that Thor fights for humanity and against foes without selfish need is enough for Gorr’s opinion to be rendered laughable.

Further, this little nugget of Aaron’s destroys the whole “worthy” narrative. Thor was “unworthy” due to his own self-doubt? So then PRIDE in himself makes him worthy??? Why wasn’t young Thor worthy then? All the gods are unworthy but only Thor loses his power? Thus the prideful gods remained in power. Hmmm. And Foster? She is worthy due to self sacrifice? If that is so, Foster didn’t sacrifice squat compared to what Thor has sacrificed since the time I started reading his stories and being his devoted fan! Cancer? That’s not enough! Not in the superhuman fictional world. Sorry.

And this “study” about what makes Thor THOR? What did it “clear” up? Nothing! It made everything worse and more jumbled, (it was NEVER confusing to me at all), because now there’s multiple reasons to be worthy of the power of Thor! It’s a case by case basis now? Who has Mjolnir become? The Living Tribunal?! A loan approval consultant???! It gets to decide when and if now?! No buddy! Mjolnir: you are a tool. A badass tool but a tool nonetheless. That’s why I believe the MofS was brought in. When Thor fans began to push back on Aaron for making Thor look like a buffoon, he decided to make a little addition to Mjolnir by making him be inhabited by a female force. This would then excuse Foster’s proficiency and ability with the hammer and exonerate Aaron of making her superior to Thor. If this is not true, then why did we never hear about the MofS again until Thor sacrifices it to give Jane life anew?! Convenient murder and cover up there Mr. Aaron!

As to your description of Aaron's run itself, I don't recognise it at all. You make lots of claims about things that just didn't happen and rhetorically exaggerate anything that did for minimising effect. Ridicule and caricature are not really forms of criticism. Clearly you didn't like it but did you actually give it anything other than a cursory glance?

Oh I read it. Bought the first 4 issues and read the others on a now defunct free site and I stand by my descriptions because plenty of others read the same thing. I read Thor for Thor. I don’t give a darn about politics and the like in my comics. This is what this was. A way to diversify what cannot be matched through his literary ability. If he were so talented, you make a new Asgardian goddess imbue Jane with power. Instead he uses Thor. The coolest and most badass fictional god and destroys him to build her up. He is not rebuilt. Nor will he ever be. Thor was at his strongest up until Aaron took over. Uncanny Avengers and HickmanÂ’s Avengers made him the force he was made by Stan Lee to be: The answer to Superman.

Aaron took that. Passed it off to Foster and hoped that we’d follow like lambs to the slaughter and cheer for her to replace him as some form of social progress. He was wrong. Now his concept gets a shot in the MCU. We’ll see how it goes. This and other forums as well as social media are no reliable indicators of what people really feel. I have a feeling it won’t be the result Disney really wants. Again, we’ll see.

PS: I LOVE female characters. It’s a damn shame Ángela wasn’t given this opportunity.

[JKtheMac]

Of course Aaron builds on history. It’s just history you don’t like. Hickman is about to write his equivalent of God of Thunder and then slowly drift the messages until we are in a very new place. He will then aim at putting things into a new and improved status quo at the end that sets up the franchise. This is exactly what Aaron has done even if some don’t approve or appreciate why it was done.