Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

I don’t think anyone would disagree though. It’s not actually an argument in that it’s generally true and non controversial. The only difference is that I am talking structural technique and you are seeing it as a plot contrivance. That’s just not establishing a joint language, not a disagreement as such.

I feel like we're disagreeing in terms of comparing Knigthfall to how Aaron handled the Jane storyline.

Is there just a little bit of that statement that is placating those who don’t see Jane as truly being Thor? I mean the whole story was about Jane actually being Thor. It was on the cover. That’s why people got upset and rejected the premise. That’s why people are still passionate enough to argue about it. That’s why we have not moved on in the debate.

Making a mortal actually replace a god is controversial. It is glorious, comic book craziness, but some are very traditional with their comic fandom.

I think the execution didn't help it.

She was mostly a cypher. A paper thin character. I mean as a mother she was in less than ten books and didn’t really have an important role. As an actual wife even less. She was often just someone to put in peril.

Surely you see how rescuing that character from the awful trap she was in was liberating?

I think she should be more if she is going to be a major character, but she didn't have to absolutely have to be considering how little Jane was relevant to Thor books for a long time.

Her role as "female lead" was basically taken up by Sif for a good period of time.

I don't think it is specifically "mortal replacing a god" that causes controversy, it's someone with little experience being as good as someone with a great deal of experience. It's the same thing that has dogged Star Wars arguments since The Empire Strikes Back - how feasible is it that a newbie can challenge an expert with little to no training. Like with most fiction it requires a certain amount suspension of disbelief, and that depends on how keen you are on the outcome. An audience will overlook implausibilities in a story if they really like where it is going, if they're not enjoying it they won't.
.

Especially comparing it to The Force Awakens.

She becomes Thor. Thor is competent. Nuff said.

Except when he's Unworthy...and maybe even when he's calling himself Thor, as shown in Avengers.

[kilderkin]

Well JK has been arguing that Jane was Thor, you're saying she was just empowered with Thor's powers, so you two are at odds. I've always said that Jane having Thor's powers does not make her Odinson, but in the context of what I was talking about before, Jane was dressed in Thor-influenced clothing, doing the things that Thor normally does, basically being better at being Thor than Thor. And that was to do with the Knightfall comparison.

I still maintain this position, Jane weilding the hammer does not make her this, anymore than bill or cap and so forth

Possessing the power is not the same as being and too much canon is in contradiction to the idea for one writers version to change this for me

[The Cool Thatguy]

She was mostly a cypher. A paper thin character. I mean as a mother she was in less than ten books and didn’t really have an important role. As an actual wife even less. She was often just someone to put in peril.

Surely you see how rescuing that character from the awful trap she was in was liberating?

I do not, no and I think you and others that make this argument miss a very basic point.

If Jane was functionally nothing before she was made Thor, then she brought nothing to being Thor.

That's the logical endpoint of your argument, champ. That Jane as Thor is a square peg in a round hole, but that round hole looks good on her.

I disagree. I think that there are/were plenty of aspects regarding her that could have been explored while she was Thor. Instead, she was simply 'Thor's Ex with his hammer and personality'.

I don't see that as a meaningful step up

[The Cool Thatguy]

But I covered that in my post. That’s just rejection of premise. It’s technically a reason that is secondary to the shock of loosing the old guy.

She becomes Thor. Thor is competent. Nuff said.

I fail to see how Jane becoming Thor elevates her character, if the hammer turns her into a different person entirely.

[THORPERION]

I fail to see how Jane becoming Thor elevates her character, if the hammer turns her into a different person entirely.

Not only that!

She turns into a facsimile of the ACTUAL god! She speaks in his accent and really only speaks as herself internally. One might really say that the reason she acts like Thor is that Thor’s spirit went into her and he was left “empty”. That would explain his morale drop and becoming a full time alcoholic. If that is the case, that makes her completely irrelevant as she is just a placeholder (which she is) and not the “Thor” everyone claims she is.

The problem comes in upon extending that point. IF the point was to “show” Thor what his importance is, why kill a human doing it? I think the real story was that the MofS was going to be a villain and was responsible for “JaneThor”. That was dropped when Disney/Marvel felt it invalidated Jane. Regardless of that, she is still invalidated. As JK himself just stated, she acquired the know-how from the hammer (like his beloved Don Blake) and thus the spirit of Thor. None of it was her at all. Not much of an actual professional hero more like a sacrificial hero as “THOR” did the work for her and better than he! So, the ridiculous nonsensical “whisper” caused Thor (smh) to release his dominion over Mjolnir like never before thus allowing the MofS the freedom to create JaneThor and humiliate both Odín and his adored Son for her imprisonment. Where mjolnir would grant the “worthy” the power of Thor, the MofS sought to humiliate Thor granting the holder greater power. That’s the story.

Jane is a pawn AND a villain as she accepts the evil (unknowingly but still happily) and attacks Thor’s already out of character morale to further humiliate him.

This is why the story has to be changed midway. Jane is a puppet of evil. I would say she is still evil as Thor imbued the MofS into her to save her. Jane is a villain in waiting. Wolf in sheep’s clothing. I mean, she turned into “Thor” when she wielded the “War Thor” hammer. Shouldn’t she have become War Thor by Aaron’s own canon? If mjolnir was responsible for her change then only it could change her. It’s obvious now that that is not the case.

Quite frankly I think my story is much superior to Aaron’s.....

As Aragorn would say: “What say you?!”

[kilderkin]

Not only that!

She turns into a facsimile of the ACTUAL god! She speaks in his accent and really only speaks as herself internally. One might really say that the reason she acts like Thor is that Thor’s spirit went into her and he was left “empty”. That would explain his morale drop and becoming a full time alcoholic. If that is the case, that makes her completely irrelevant as she is just a placeholder (which she is) and not the “Thor” everyone claims she is.

The problem comes in upon extending that point. IF the point was to “show” Thor what his importance is, why kill a human doing it? I think the real story was that the MofS was going to be a villain and was responsible for “JaneThor”. That was dropped when Disney/Marvel felt it invalidated Jane. Regardless of that, she is still invalidated. As JK himself just stated, she acquired the know-how from the hammer (like his beloved Don Blake) and thus the spirit of Thor. None of it was her at all. Not much of an actual professional hero more like a sacrificial hero as “THOR” did the work for her and better than he! So, the ridiculous nonsensical “whisper” caused Thor (smh) to release his dominion over Mjolnir like never before thus allowing the MofS the freedom to create JaneThor and humiliate both Odín and his adored Son for her imprisonment. Where mjolnir would grant the “worthy” the power of Thor, the MofS sought to humiliate Thor granting the holder greater power. That’s the story.

Jane is a pawn AND a villain as she accepts the evil (unknowingly but still happily) and attacks Thor’s already out of character morale to further humiliate him.

This is why the story has to be changed midway. Jane is a puppet of evil. I would say she is still evil as Thor imbued the MofS into her to save her. Jane is a villain in waiting. Wolf in sheep’s clothing. I mean, she turned into “Thor” when she wielded the “War Thor” hammer. Shouldn’t she have become War Thor by Aaron’s own canon? If mjolnir was responsible for her change then only it could change her. It’s obvious now that that is not the case.

Quite frankly I think my story is much superior to Aaron’s.....

As Aragorn would say: “What say you?!”

Now that's a take on it I hadn't considered

Very interesting

I still think the storm was a terrible idea that doesn't hold up to the stories own internal logic

But there's lots about Aarons run I would say that about

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Thor #405 Jul 1989
"Odin Must Die!"
Annihilus tears his way through the Crimson Hawks, towards Odin.

Thor and others stand in his way.

On Earth, Mongooses mysterious master wants more of Thors tissue samples, so Mongoose kidnaps Eric Masterson to draw Thor out.
Thor senses the trouble through the bond he shares with Kevin's toy hammer.

Odin sends Thor to Earth through the Fantastic Four’s negative zone portal.
When he arrives at Eric’s apartment, he is given one word to go on – Wundagore.

Script by Ron Frenz (plot) and Tom DeFalco (plot; script), pencils by Ron Frenz (layouts), inks by Joe Sinnott (finished art)

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

"This Lethal Land"
Thor and the Warriors Three


capture Ulagg by Volstagg sitting on him.

Script by Tom DeFalco, art by Tony DeZuniga

[THORPERION]

Thanks 616! Those posts you make every THORSday are the only light we get on Thor boards these days! Great work! Keep the LEGACY of the ONE TRUE THOR alive!!!

[JKtheMac]

I feel like we're disagreeing in terms of comparing Knigthfall to how Aaron handled the Jane storyline.

I think Knightfall is terrible. I thought, let’s give it one last try and read it all in order in one long read and frankly it was worse. So I wouldn’t compare them. But hey. I have given up on Batman so maybe it’s just me.

[Frontier]

I think Knightfall is terrible. I thought, let’s give it one last try and read it all in order in one long read and frankly it was worse. So I wouldn’t compare them. But hey. I have given up on Batman so maybe it’s just me.

I really enjoyed Knightfall, personally, but to each their own .

[kilderkin]

Thanks 616! Those posts you make every THORSday are the only light we get on Thor boards these days! Great work! Keep the LEGACY of the ONE TRUE THOR alive!!!

I do enjoy those flashbacks

Great fun to remember those tales

[The Cool Thatguy]

I honestly think this run will end up like Joe Casey's Wildcats 2.0. Heralded as a break through when published, but years later falls apart under closer examination.

I mean, where to start? Lets boil it down.

Thor becomes unworthy because Nick Fury confirms Gorr's racism. Thor is forced to redeem himself not because of his actions, but someone else's opinion.

Thor's inability to lift his hammer legitimizes his opinion of himself during his depression. That because he feels worthless, he is treated as worthless.

I know many hail Jane's time as Thor as welcome because we finally had a powerful heroine, but in reality its a bait and switch. Thor's hammer (and power) have been Thor's since before this country was founded! Thor is a myth that became a comic. The bait is the idea that Jane would ever keep the hammer.

The switch is that, here we are some 40 plus years later and still! Still we do not have a superstrong, powerful women in the top weight class who doesn't owe her origin to male character. Captain Marvel's origin may have been tweaked, but it's still there.

I like She-Hulk(s) and Carol. But Marvel needs heroines just as tough as Thor, Thing and the rest, who don't owe their entirety to a male character, who have their own origins and are not spin offs of male characters. Why does DC have us beat on this?

In that regard, Jane was nothing more than a placeholder, a band-aid on a legit complaint that has gone largely unaddressed for decades now. Replacing a male character with a female for a bit does not a problem solve

[THORPERION]

I honestly think this run will end up like Joe Casey's Wildcats 2.0. Heralded as a break through when published, but years later falls apart under closer examination.

I mean, where to start? Lets boil it down.

Thor becomes unworthy because Nick Fury confirms Gorr's racism. Thor is forced to redeem himself not because of his actions, but someone else's opinion.

Thor's inability to lift his hammer legitimizes his opinion of himself during his depression. That because he feels worthless, he is treated as worthless.

I know many hail Jane's time as Thor as welcome because we finally had a powerful heroine, but in reality its a bait and switch. Thor's hammer (and power) have been Thor's since before this country was founded! Thor is a myth that became a comic. The bait is the idea that Jane would ever keep the hammer.

The switch is that, here we are some 40 plus years later and still! Still we do not have a superstrong, powerful women in the top weight class who doesn't owe her origin to male character. Captain Marvel's origin may have been tweaked, but it's still there.

I like She-Hulk(s) and Carol. But Marvel needs heroines just as tough as Thor, Thing and the rest, who don't owe their entirety to a male character, who have their own origins and are not spin offs of male characters. Why does DC have us beat on this?

In that regard, Jane was nothing more than a placeholder, a band-aid on a legit complaint that has gone largely unaddressed for decades now. Replacing a male character with a female for a bit does not a problem solve

Very true! But the worst part of it is that Marvel had the MOST powerful woman in ALL of comics but as usual decided to destroy her and fragment her legacy just like they’re doing to Thor. “Who” you might ask?

Phoenix.

Written and left in her original form, ALL that power was her peak mutation. She was the owner. There was no guy she inherited anything from. Iconic name and badass iconography! What happened? They f—-ed it up! She had everything yet they continued to dilute her because powerful women were “bad” and now we are paying for their bad decisions with them wrecking Thor as payback in the here and now. Thor had this coming as well. When Marvel allowed Thor to lose to Superman, I knew that was the end. You stalemate at worst. NEVER allow DEFEAT. It’s quite clear that Marvel and Aaron HATE Thor but they love his iconography. Last nail in the coffin was all this “bad white men” bologna which was bound to end up at my beloved Thunderer’s doorstep.

And so it has.....

[The Cool Thatguy]

Very true! But the worst part of it is that Marvel had the MOST powerful woman in ALL of comics but as usual decided to destroy her and fragment her legacy just like they’re doing to Thor. “Who” you might ask?

Phoenix.

Written and left in her original form, ALL that power was her peak mutation. She was the owner. There was no guy she inherited anything from. Iconic name and badass iconography! What happened? They f—-ed it up! She had everything yet they continued to dilute her because powerful women were “bad” and now we are paying for their bad decisions with them wrecking Thor as payback in the here and now. Thor had this coming as well. When Marvel allowed Thor to lose to Superman, I knew that was the end. You stalemate at worst. NEVER allow DEFEAT. It’s quite clear that Marvel and Aaron HATE Thor but they love his iconography. Last nail in the coffin was all this “bad white men” bologna which was bound to end up at my beloved Thunderer’s doorstep.

And so it has.....

In the defense of writers in general, it's hard to write powerful characters who aren't physically powerful.

As Kurt Buseik once said, you can throw an army at Thor and keep him busy. But throw an army at Sersi, and she can turn them into pigs. Spectrum can steam roll them at the speed of light, etc.

To be clear, Marvel has many a powerful women. And power doesn't make an character, male or female, automatically worthwhile.

But what Marvel still does not have, and needs, is powerful women who are powerful in the way that Thor, Hulk, Wonder Man, etc, and who are not simply female spin offs of male characters. America Chavez is the only damn example I can think of!