Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[Frontier]

I was super happy about Hulk's overall arc, but really disappointed it all happened off-screen. Still, he ended up in a really cool place and I absolutely love the parallels of Hulk finding peace and balance in a broken, post-Snap world. He used to be a monster, and now he's happy and well adjusted in a world that is anything but, so in a way he's *still* a monster (just look at how Rogers and Nat give him side eye in the diner; ain't no one comfortable with happy Hulk!)

I didn't like how they had it happen off-screen or how they handled it. Felt like it was used for a bit too many jokes instead of character moments.

Eh, its not really optimism so much as just doing the math. Most of us have a problem with Aaron not for how he handled Jane, but for how he handled everyone else. And in the MCU Odin and Frigga are dead, New Asgard is far removed from what Asgardia was in the comics, the Warriors Three are dead, and Thor *just* went through the MCU version of unworthy. I don't think Waititi (spelling?) is enough of a hack to retell the unworthy story so quickly after Endgame just did it (though I do expect some shades of it to still be lingering, MCU Thor isn't fully recovered yet and might still not be when the film hits). And we already know some details of the film are going to be quite different from Aaron's run, like Val looking for a queen. I expect Love & Thunder to look like Aaron's run roughly as much as Ragnarok looked like Simonson's version of the story; which is to say, not at all.

I don't have a problem with how he handled Jane in isolation. It's next to Thor or when in his world that I had an issue with it.

I guess you could say Endgame was his Unworthy arc even if, despite how he was acting, he was still somehow worthy. But, again, I felt part of that was just so they could have Mjolnir back in the present so Cap could use it.

I suspect (and this is just me guessing) that Thor traces his own blame much further back than that. If I had to guess I'd say it goes back (in Thor's mind) to Dark World and his not taking the throne (again). That allowed Loki to rule, ignoring allies like the dwarves, which lead to Thanos getting the gauntlet without contest. The "destroyer" prophesy from Age of Ultron likely hangs over him, especially considering it was proven true in later films, and Thor's failure to find a single Infinity Stone (despite having already dealt with three of them) probably weighs on him too. And of course, once he does take the throne he immediately loses his planet and most of his people and fails to keep the space Stone from Thanos (on top of losing his brother, Heimdal, etc). Whether Thor is truly to blame for these things isn't really the point, I think Thor blames himself for all of this, all of the missteps and coincidences that, (in his mind) if he had been a little wiser he could have done something about.

You'd think that would drive him to take things more seriously and impact-fully instead of...well, how he handled it.

[Ascended]

Especially when the likelihood we'll see Hulk get a big action moment after this is slim at best. Especially when he barely did anything in the final fight and has basically lost an arm.

What's the status of Ruffalo's contract? Is he finished too?

I really liked that Hulk's big moment in Endgame was bringing back all the Snap victims. We've seen him smash his way to victory in every film he's been in, there's nothing new to tell in another big Hulk Smash moment. But in Endgame, Hulk got to bring something back, he got to build and save rather than destroy and crush. And I thought it was a great way to use the narrative to highlight the changes Banner has gone through.

But if Ruffalo is indeed finished.....then yeah, it's disappointing. I mean, bringing half the universe back to life is a pretty gods damn huge moment, but not quite on the level of a proper sendoff like what Tony and Steve got.

[Ascended]

I don't have a problem with how he handled Jane in isolation. It's next to Thor or when in his world that I had an issue with it.

Exactly. And all those things are either gone completely or are totally different in the MCU. So the things people worry about.....most of them are non-factors. What, is Jane going to talk to Odin's ghost about misogyny?

I guess you could say Endgame was his Unworthy arc even if, despite how he was acting, he was still somehow worthy. But, again, I felt part of that was just so they could have Mjolnir back in the present so Cap could use it.

I think it was for both. Thor realizing that he's still worthy was a huge turnaround moment for his character arc; that's when he truly begins to heal. And yeah, Steve got to use the hammer too, but I doubt the Russo's did all that *just* for Steve. I think it was a "two birds one stone" sorta thing. In the end though....I dont really care what the Russo's intention or motivation was; the return of Mjolnir benefited Thor's story in a meaningful way. All Steve got to do was look cool for a few minutes.

You'd think that would drive him to take things more seriously and impact-fully instead of...well, how he handled it.

Well I've never been responsible for allowing a cosmic tyrant to eradicate half of all life in the universe so I can't really say how it should be handled. But I think with Thor, he believes he failed as a protector of the Realms, and then he failed as a king.......and I don't think Thor really knows how to imagine himself as anything but those two things. So when he fails at both.....he just sorta shuts down.

[Frontier]

What's the status of Ruffalo's contract? Is he finished too?

Maybe not. I think the likelihood Hulk probably won't have to do much more then cameos or small guest appearances might help Ruffalo appearing more if he doesn't mind the motion-capture.

I really liked that Hulk's big moment in Endgame was bringing back all the Snap victims. We've seen him smash his way to victory in every film he's been in, there's nothing new to tell in another big Hulk Smash moment. But in Endgame, Hulk got to bring something back, he got to build and save rather than destroy and crush. And I thought it was a great way to use the narrative to highlight the changes Banner has gone through.

I get that. It's just in the grand scheme of things it didn't feel as major a moment or as something strictly only Hulk could pull off to me.

I think it was for both. Thor realizing that he's still worthy was a huge turnaround moment for his character arc; that's when he truly begins to heal. And yeah, Steve got to use the hammer too, but I doubt the Russo's did all that *just* for Steve. I think it was a "two birds one stone" sorta thing. In the end though....I dont really care what the Russo's intention or motivation was; the return of Mjolnir benefited Thor's story in a meaningful way. All Steve got to do was look cool for a few minutes.

I didn't really see it that way. There didn't feel like much of a character shift that I felt that moment needed. He still came off kind of buffoonish and out of it until the Thanos fight.

Well I've never been responsible for allowing a cosmic tyrant to eradicate half of all life in the universe so I can't really say how it should be handled. But I think with Thor, he believes he failed as a protector of the Realms, and then he failed as a king.......and I don't think Thor really knows how to imagine himself as anything but those two things. So when he fails at both.....he just sorta shuts down.

Poor dude barely got to do anything as king .

[Ascended]

Maybe not. I think the likelihood Hulk probably won't have to do much more then cameos or small guest appearances might help Ruffalo appearing more if he doesn't mind the motion-capture.

I suspect he'll show up again, if for nothing else than to provide a blood transfusion for his cousin. I mean, just about everyone else is getting a replacement; Jane is picking up the hammer, Kate is showing up in Hawkeye, Sam is the new Cap, I'll be amazed if the Widow film doesn't set Yelena up as the next Widow. At this point the only Avengers who don't have a replacement on the horizon are Tony and Banner. I'm surprised that War Machine isn't getting something (all the other next-gen Avengers are, is Cheadle finished too?) but with the Studio's push for diversity I'm fully expecting She-Hulk to arrive before too long.

If that's all Banner gets then...yeah, Endgame will have failed to give Hulk a real solid goodbye. The act of undoing the Snap is huge, arguably bigger than anything anyone else did in the movie, but the film didn't really give that moment the weight it deserved.....especially if Ruffalo is done.

I get that. It's just in the grand scheme of things it didn't feel as major a moment or as something strictly only Hulk could pull off to me.

Well, he *did* survive using the gauntlet. That's something not a lot of people could do.....but I get what you mean.

I didn't really see it that way. There didn't feel like much of a character shift that I felt that moment needed. He still came off kind of buffoonish and out of it until the Thanos fight.

I guess? Like I said I haven't seen it since opening weekend but I feel like I started to see a turnaround once Thor returned to his own time. But I'll take your word on it since you've seen it more recently.

Poor dude barely got to do anything as king.

And Im still pissed about it. Also annoyed by the lack of an eyepatch.....but we don't need to go over that conversation again.

[Frontier]

I suspect he'll show up again, if for nothing else than to provide a blood transfusion for his cousin. I mean, just about everyone else is getting a replacement; Jane is picking up the hammer, Kate is showing up in Hawkeye, Sam is the new Cap, I'll be amazed if the Widow film doesn't set Yelena up as the next Widow. At this point the only Avengers who don't have a replacement on the horizon are Tony and Banner. I'm surprised that War Machine isn't getting something (all the other next-gen Avengers are, is Cheadle finished too?) but with the Studio's push for diversity I'm fully expecting She-Hulk to arrive before too long.

I kind of don't see them finally doing a solo movie with Widow only to set up her replacement unless they really don't intend to undo her death in Endgame.

[Ascended]

I kind of don't see them finally doing a solo movie with Widow only to set up her replacement unless they really don't intend to undo her death in Endgame.

Who knows? Time travel, clones, twins.....tons of ways they could undo Widow's death. But I'm willing to bet we're going to see the OG heroes appear in movies like Widow and Thor 4 so their replacements can be introduced with an easy transition, and those replacements will then pick up as the main stars in the sequels (if there are any sequels at all) as well as taking over for the OG in guest spots and team films.

I could be wrong of course.

[Daniel22]

I don't know if I think it's a thing just for message boards, because I think the power fantasy element is an inherent part of the appeal of Superheroes. Maybe people don't compare her to Thor but I think her capability as Thor was part of her appeal for readers.

I agree that the power fantasy aspect can't be overlooked... it's baked in. Just going on personal experiences, my feeling is that it wasn't a huge draw for this story. If anything the sort of DE-powering Jane underwent was more of a draw. There are endless superhero books about ultra power people dealing with universal level concerns but without the humanizing and relatable aspects this book would have probably wouldn't have drawn the wide range of readers it did. I could argue that maybe having Jane be less powerful would have fed more into that vulnerability and humanizing aspect... I'm not sure about that but I think there's at least enough there to have a discussion.
I also agree that seeing Jane being capable was an appeal, regardless of the level of capability. I think her abilities were looked at largely independent of Odinson, though. I think it was much more about the two sides of the coin Jane was dealing with. She was losing in her human form but got to escape by being Thor and kicking butt, but at the ultimate cost. That aspect can exist entirely independent of Odinson and I think it does for a number of readers. It's not important whether she's stronger than him, it's important that she's stronger than her human form. That's the way I think most readers I've spoken to in the real world interpreted things. In my experience the message boards focused so much on the Jane vs Odinson aspect(s) that it overpowered (no pun intended) all the other story lines and ideas.

[JKtheMac]

I agree that the power fantasy aspect can't be overlooked... it's baked in. Just going on personal experiences, my feeling is that it wasn't a huge draw for this story. If anything the sort of DE-powering Jane underwent was more of a draw. There are endless superhero books about ultra power people dealing with universal level concerns but without the humanizing and relatable aspects this book would have probably wouldn't have drawn the wide range of readers it did. I could argue that maybe having Jane be less powerful would have fed more into that vulnerability and humanizing aspect... I'm not sure about that but I think there's at least enough there to have a discussion.
I also agree that seeing Jane being capable was an appeal, regardless of the level of capability. I think her abilities were looked at largely independent of Odinson, though. I think it was much more about the two sides of the coin Jane was dealing with. She was losing in her human form but got to escape by being Thor and kicking butt, but at the ultimate cost. That aspect can exist entirely independent of Odinson and I think it does for a number of readers. It's not important whether she's stronger than him, it's important that she's stronger than her human form. That's the way I think most readers I've spoken to in the real world interpreted things. In my experience the message boards focused so much on the Jane vs Odinson aspect(s) that it overpowered (no pun intended) all the other story lines and ideas.

Indeed. That pretty much sums up something I said over and over. That nobody was comparing them, and that it was essentially a wish fulfilment story with lots of interesting layers for those of us that enjoyed the subtext about canon and Thor history. Aspirational wish fulfilment was a foundational aspect of Thor in the beginning, and is a superhero staple. No wonder it was popular with a broad audience of old and new fans alike.

[Daniel22]

I think it is enough. For some it clearly wasn’t.

How much time can be taken up with a plotline that by its very nature has to be paused for the story to work? Yes this necessitated a much loved character take a backseat, and indeed be entirely absent for long periods.

The flip side to that is that it takes a buy-in from the reader, which is a given anyway for any story. In this case one needs to buy into the idea that Jane’s story is still a Thor story. If one doesn’t do that then it’s going to feel very different. Identical to the problem of not buying into the ideas behind Secret Empire or Superior Spider-Man. They are all self referential stories. Thor had the advantage that it was still a heroic story but for some that’s not enough.


I think that’s very true. To take it further, why would it? Someone who has bought into the idea doesn’t need it. The whole argument is born from resistance to the story.



Yes, Jane is making a huge sacrifice, and that ‘duty first’ outlook seems to be the very thing that makes her worthy. I am not sure that this in and of itself tells us much about Odinson, or who he is supposed to be. I guess on one level it does remind us that once things were much simpler for Odinson. That the books were much simpler too.

I think a LOT of issues readers have go all the way back to an unwillingness to buy in and accept the premise. And that is totally fine, of course. Every reader is going to have stories that just never get off the ground for them. It's a certainty that will happen and it's natural and not a negative. But if I don't buy into and accept the basic premise I'm probably not going to accept anything that comes after. It's kind of like if I keep sending a pizza back because the crust is too dry for me or I don't like the toppings or it has too much sauce for my taste when really I just don't want pizza. If I don't accept the foundation none of the details are going to matter.

I think that if you buy in at the beginning the story is more likely to read as Jane vs Jane and Odinson vs Odinson, not Jane vs Odinson. I think it's likely that someone who accepts the initial premises will see two stories that parallel and sometimes intersect while rarely if ever competing with each other while someone who rejected the premises from the start will see two competing stories.

[Daniel22]

Indeed. That pretty much sums up something I said over and over. That nobody was comparing them, and that it was essentially a wish fulfilment story with lots of interesting layers for those of us that enjoyed the subtext about canon and Thor history. Aspirational wish fulfilment was a foundational aspect of Thor in the beginning, and is a superhero staple. No wonder it was popular with a broad audience of old and new fans alike.

The comparison is a sticking point for a portion of readers and it's unfortunate imo. I didn't read the story as Jane is raised by lowering Odinson and I don't think Odinson was lowered because of Jane. I love the story but there are parts of it I find fault with and complaints I can understand but I just don't get that particular point. Jane is raised AND Odinson is brought low. It's not an either/or and they're not looking to define worthiness as compared to each other. Maybe some other characters and readers do but my takeaway is that they each needed to reach their worthiness, which didn't involve a comparison. There is much less intersection between Jane and Odinson on the topic of worthiness in the overall story than some readers think, in my opinion.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I kind of don't see them finally doing a solo movie with Widow only to set up her replacement unless they really don't intend to undo her death in Endgame.

I don't know why people expect the same craziness in movies that we see in comics.

I think Widow will remain dead to keep the impact of her death in Endgame, and because Scarjo would want to do other projects. If Chris didn't enjoy being Thor so much, Thor's ending might have been different too.

The comics don't have to deal with real people, who want to take their careers in a different direction or want more time to themselves. So the outcomes will be different

[Frontier]

The comparison is a sticking point for a portion of readers and it's unfortunate imo. I didn't read the story as Jane is raised by lowering Odinson and I don't think Odinson was lowered because of Jane. I love the story but there are parts of it I find fault with and complaints I can understand but I just don't get that particular point. Jane is raised AND Odinson is brought low. It's not an either/or and they're not looking to define worthiness as compared to each other. Maybe some other characters and readers do but my takeaway is that they each needed to reach their worthiness, which didn't involve a comparison. There is much less intersection between Jane and Odinson on the topic of worthiness in the overall story than some readers think, in my opinion.

I think a positive reading of the run is that it doesn't but with the way Aaron handled it the comparison just doesn't come off making OG!Thor look good in relation to how Jane is depicted.

I'm not saying Thor couldn't have hit a low point but there were classier and more in-character ways of depicting it that also didn't make him appear much weaker then Jane.

If there wasn't much intersection in their respective stories regarding worthiness, it may have been because of how inconsistent Aaron was on the concept. To where he would do a story on worthiness that...really didn't feel like it had anything to do with worthiness.

I don't know why people expect the same craziness in movies that we see in comics.

I think Widow will remain dead to keep the impact of her death in Endgame, and because Scarjo would want to do other projects. If Chris didn't enjoy being Thor so much, Thor's ending might have been different too.

The comics don't have to deal with real people, who want to take their careers in a different direction or want more time to themselves. So the outcomes will be different

I dunno. She finally gets her own solo film, she doesn't seem to have a lot major projects coming up, I think she's open to potentially more with the character.

I wasn't crazy about how they killed her off anyways.

[Daniel22]

I think a positive reading of the run is that it doesn't but with the way Aaron handled it the comparison just doesn't come off making OG!Thor look good in relation to how Jane is depicted.

I'm not saying Thor couldn't have hit a low point but there were classier and more in-character ways of depicting it that also didn't make him appear much weaker then Jane.

If there wasn't much intersection in their respective stories regarding worthiness, it may have been because of how inconsistent Aaron was on the concept. To where he would do a story on worthiness that...really didn't feel like it had anything to do with worthiness.

I dunno. She finally gets her own solo film, she doesn't seem to have a lot major projects coming up, I think she's open to potentially more with the character.

I wasn't crazy about how they killed her off anyways.

I just don't think the "weaker than Jane" take away is... I'm struggling to find the right word... needed, maybe? That's not quite right though... maybe a better word is relevant? That's not perfect either. In any case.. The way I read the story is: Odinson becomes unworthy (or begins to see himself as unworthy). Odinson is brought to a low point. Over here, related but not directly connected in every way, Jane takes up his role and is worthy and powerful. Odinson wouldn't be raised any higher or be more worthy if Jane struggled or wasn't as powerful as Odinson. Conversely Odinson wouldn't be any less powerful if Jane was even more capable and powerful. One isn't dependent on the other and they aren't trying to define themselves against each other and there isn't a limited pool of "Thor Juice" (patent pending) to where if Jane drinks a lot there is less for Odinson. The comparison of power levels frustrates some readers and it is unfortunate imo because I don't know why it gets added and/or focused on to a large extent.

The worthiness part.. I don't think we're going to end up at any different places in round 12 than we did in rounds 1-11 lol. But even though (or even because) we disagree on most things I enjoy our conversations.

Edit: Just realized I repeated a bit from my post to JK... I'm sorry, didn't realize at first.

[THORPERION]

You seem to miss the ONE CRUCIAL crux (at least power-wise because the whole story is based on a pile of none sense) of the issue: Foster should NEVER BE GREATER. Equivalent? Maybe. Better or more powerful? Not even a little bit! And that’s what Aaron went out of his way to do. She’s more powerful and skilled. She’s the best who ever used the hammer without taking into account that A) she never did anything Thor hasn’t and B) it was the Mother of Storms who acted and not her!

Someone on another thread is hell bent on making it seem like Jane was in full control when it’s clear to anyone that she isn’t. She was called. She is guided. She is told when and where to go. Nothing she does in the entire sordid tale is done of her own volition other than take Thor’s form. The hammer appears and she needs to go. Jane herself asks the hammer numerous times to do things! Hey Miss Thor, if you’re so hot, make it do what you want without asking! It’s clear that her whole stint as “Thor” is as a puppet. Aaron backs me up with the MoSs. It makes her more powerful. That’s why it was introduced. Without it she’d be useless. She’d probably knock herself out trying to twirl the hammer! Lmao!