Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[charliehustle415]

Absolutely. I would just prefer to use a different term for that process, because of the associated confusion it brings.

Totally agree, maybe there is one but I do not know of one that captures the same definition.

[JKtheMac]

Totally agree, maybe there is one but I do not know of one that captures the same definition.

Technically it’s a post-structural exploration but that’s perhaps a little pretentious and not at all catchy.

[charliehustle415]

Technically it’s a post-structural exploration but that’s perhaps a little pretentious and not at all catchy.

*saying it while holding monocle*

pip pip cheereo

[theoneandonly]

No , I don’t have to admit anything of the sort. You are probably making connections that are not really there because Thor isn’t remotely acting like a psychopath.

you misread. I didn't say that he was a raging psychopath but when he is shown paraphrasing rosharche a mentally broken character then obviously it's Aaron who conveys the impression that they are analogs and thor is in a situation similar to rosharche where he is mentally broken and is venting his rage on the world and his father. you have to accept that thor isn't exactly in a healthy frame of mind and when Aaron is going to insert references of watchmen as a homage/parody then readers will conclude that he is deconstructing the thor mythos and not in a favorable light. of course you may not agree and feel that this will ultimately be a lynchpin of the mythology providing new direction for the mythos but then again it might lead to a broken character who may prove impossible for succeeding writers to reconstruct.

[Daedra]

you misread. I didn't say that he was a raging psychopath but when he is shown paraphrasing rosharche a mentally broken character then obviously it's Aaron who conveys the impression that they are analogs and thor is in a situation similar to rosharche where he is mentally broken and is venting his rage on the world and his father. you have to accept that thor isn't exactly in a healthy frame of mind and when Aaron is going to insert references of watchmen as a homage/parody then readers will conclude that he is deconstructing the thor mythos and not in a favorable light. of course you may not agree and feel that this will ultimately be a lynchpin of the mythology providing new direction for the mythos but then again it might lead to a broken character who may prove impossible for succeeding writers to reconstruct.

thank you for having the patience and taking the time to explain that. I do think you are actually quite right.

[JKtheMac]

you misread. I didn't say that he was a raging psychopath but when he is shown paraphrasing rosharche a mentally broken character then obviously it's Aaron who conveys the impression that they are analogs and thor is in a situation similar to rosharche where he is mentally broken and is venting his rage on the world and his father. you have to accept that thor isn't exactly in a healthy frame of mind and when Aaron is going to insert references of watchmen as a homage/parody then readers will conclude that he is deconstructing the thor mythos and not in a favorable light. of course you may not agree and feel that this will ultimately be a lynchpin of the mythology providing new direction for the mythos but then again it might lead to a broken character who may prove impossible for succeeding writers to reconstruct.

Sorry you are being too arch for me. Unless you actually show what he said and why you think this is what it means I have no idea what you are talking about. But even if you can demonstrate this theory I suspect I would reject it.

Being highly familiar with both texts I have no idea what “paraphrase” you are referring to, or it’s context. Perhaps you think it is obvious but it certainly isn’t. And even if it is there it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

This is incidentally what I already said in a more explicit manner, so I didn’t misread you. I deliberately called out the word psychopathic to demonstrate why your theory sounds overblown and unlikely. I don’t believe for one second Aaron is comparing these characters on a psychological level.

P.S. I have just realised you are referring to the Prison of Angels story. That would totally undermine your theory because Thor was play acting as he said it anyway. Like I said, context is important. There is a huge difference from a psychopath using that kind of thing as a threat, and somebody saying it as they are dragged along by their hair and thrown into a cell, later discovering that their ineffectual bluster was just for show.

It is odd that this kind of intertextuality is latched upon and yet every time I demonstrate that Aaron is drawing on continuity or referencing Lee, Kirby, Simonson etc. people here just deny it. Anything to make the writer look bad is OK but anything to make the writer look good is rejected.

P.P.S. I wonder if the people that use that quote as a Bruce Lee meme on instagram are suggesting Bruce Lee was like Rorschach? I am guessing not.

[Panic]

Nobody is going to sever Mjölnir from Thor. That isn’t pessimism that’s abandoning reason. Like saying Captain America will permanently loose his super serum, or Hulk will never turn back to Banner ever again. If you believe Mjölnir is gone for good then you are ignoring the fact that it is still in the story in the future and you are wilfully forgetting how comics work.

I didn't say Mjolnir was gone for good, I said that I think Aaron's sentient hammer was, at least in part, a move to legitimise Jane's claim on Mjolnir and an attempt to separate it permanently from Odinson as part of this. Aaron, imo, would like Jane as Thor to stick, and I expect if Aaron gets his way Jane will be paired with the hammer.

Yes, Aaron wrote ancient future All-Father Thor having the hammer in the God Butcher storyline, and no, it doesn't matter a whole lot as stories set in the future are rarely considered binding (unless you are wilfully forgetting how comics work ) and it is so far away as to be irrelevant to readers. I'm sure Thor will regain Mjolnir one day, but I'm not at all sure Aaron will be the writer to do that. Jane will almost certainly be back, and though she could be given her own hammer a la Bill or Thunderstrike, I think she needs the original Mjolnir for status.

[JKtheMac]

I didn't say Mjolnir was gone for good, I said that I think Aaron's sentient hammer was, at least in part, a move to legitimise Jane's claim on Mjolnir and an attempt to separate it permanently from Odinson as part of this. Aaron, imo, would like Jane as Thor to stick, and I expect if Aaron gets his way Jane will be paired with the hammer.

I don't believe Jane as Thor was ever meant to be permanent, indeed he has talked about Marvel asking him to bring the story to a head early because at the start Legacy was all about making the books more clearly about something. So Aaron's change of plan was to have Jane give up the hammer earlier than he originally envisioned.

I actually suspect Jane was originally going to die, and still could, just not from cancer, but that is of course also speculation.

"How exactly is "separate it permanently from Odinson" not the same as "sever Mjölnir from Thor"?

Yes, Aaron wrote ancient future All-Father Thor having the hammer in the God Butcher storyline, and no, it doesn't matter a whole lot as stories set in the future are rarely considered binding (unless you are wilfully forgetting how comics work ) and it is so far away as to be irrelevant to readers. I'm sure Thor will regain Mjolnir one day, but I'm not at all sure Aaron will be the writer to do that. Jane will almost certainly be back, and though she could be given her own hammer a la Bill or Thunderstrike, I think she needs the original Mjolnir for status.

You are doing what many readers of Marvel comics do and conflating a truism of books like X-Men comics, with a general rule of stories. Making 2+2=5.

During a run, the future we see has to make sense. That future is going to happen unless something changes it. It is not automatically an alternative universe, no matter how much some fans want to make grand time travel theories for every eventuality. I don't expect this future to be wiped out for a very long time because it is so far into the future that the petty squabbles that we see in normal time travel stories are but a ripple in the river of deep time.

I don't believe Aaron will leave a time paradox hanging, and I do believe that Mjolnir was irreparably destroyed in the sun. As I have suggested before, because Thor held two Mjolnirs simultaneously he might have left his one in the future, only to be returned back to him later in the story. That neatly resolves the paradox and allows us to have genuinely seen the final death of Mjolnir. As to the sentience he can just put it back to sleep and let future writers do whatever they want with it.

I think Jane will be back for the final battle, as any important character should be. Whether she is wielding a hammer and acting as a goddess is up for grabs. As I said, it would make sense for her to die. She comes back because she isn't ready to die, and of course she was called back. A writer needs to make that pay off in some way. Yes it could be as an ongoing hero, but it could equally be for a climactic death.

[Panic]

I don't believe Jane as Thor was ever meant to be permanent,

I don't think when he started the story he intended it to be permanent, but I think he gelled with Jane in a way he never did with Odinson, and with the success of Jane in the role I think he started to have ambitions for her.

I actually suspect Jane was originally going to die, and still could, just not from cancer, but that is of course also speculation.

Yes, I also think originally she was intended to die from cancer.

"How exactly is "separate it permanently from Odinson" not the same as "sever Mjölnir from Thor"?

???

They mean the same thing.

Just to clarify:
You said "Nobody is going to sever Mjölnir from Thor." I said that I thought Aaron was trying to do just that (" separate it permanently from Odinson")

So when you take each quote out of context they mean the same thing, but in context the are opposed: "Separate it permanently from Odinson" and "sever Mjölnir from Thor" do mean the same thing once you isolate them from "I think Aaron's sentient hammer was, at least in part, a move to legitimise Jane's claim on Mjolnir and an attempt to […] " and "nobody is going to […]" respectively.

I think Aaron making Mjolnir a sentient being forced to serve the gods as a weapon, one that now awakened to free will chooses Jane over Odinson… that's a very good attempt to make putting Thor Odinson and Mjolnir together again awkward. I don't know how successful it will be, but it's a really good way of weakening Thor's claim on Mjolnir.

You are doing what many readers of Marvel comics do and conflating a truism of books like X-Men comics, with a general rule of stories. Making 2+2=5.

During a run, the future we see has to make sense. That future is going to happen unless something changes it. It is not automatically an alternative universe, no matter how much some fans want to make grand time travel theories for every eventuality. I don't expect this future to be wiped out for a very long time because it is so far into the future that the petty squabbles that we see in normal time travel stories are but a ripple in the river of deep time.

I don't believe Aaron will leave a time paradox hanging, and I do believe that Mjolnir was irreparably destroyed in the sun. As I have suggested before, because Thor held two Mjolnirs simultaneously he might have left his one in the future, only to be returned back to him later in the story. That neatly resolves the paradox and allows us to have genuinely seen the final death of Mjolnir. As to the sentience he can just put it back to sleep and let future writers do whatever they want with it.

I think Jane will be back for the final battle, as any important character should be. Whether she is wielding a hammer and acting as a goddess is up for grabs. As I said, it would make sense for her to die. She comes back because she isn't ready to die, and of course she was called back. A writer needs to make that pay off in some way. Yes it could be as an ongoing hero, but it could equally be for a climactic death.

I'm not really sure we're in conflict about the future Thor, in that he's so far ahead nothing is really going to contradict him, even death, because you can always say he will be resurrected sometime in the future. I don't think other writers will feel constrained by Aaron's future Thor any more than Avengers writers have kept to Avengers Forever, but again, I don't think that will mean that you can ever say that whatever they come up with is contradictory with something so far ahead, especially in the Marvel Universe where dead doesn't mean dead.

And yes, death by anything other than cancer is easily overturned, and Jane may well get a big death scene and still get to come back. I suppose the double hammer thing you mentioned might mean that both Thor and Jane will end up with a Mjolnir, if it's revealed that the sun didn't destroy that Mjolnir.

[GodThor]

Mjolnir will either be:

1. Repaired (we already saw some broken pieces)
2. Time travel

[GOLGO 13]

If Thor last name is Odinson because he is the son of Odin, then what is Angela's last name?

[GodThor]

If Thor last name is Odinson because he is the son of Odin, then what is Angela's last name?

Odinsdottir???

[charliehustle415]

Odinsdottir???

You got it, my old philosophy (whose Icelandic) professor's name was Sveinsdottir.

Guess who was her dad?

[kilderkin]

Odinsdottir???

She used this name in bendis last guardians book iirc

[The Cool Thatguy]

So when you take each quote out of context they mean the same thing, but in context the are opposed: "Separate it permanently from Odinson" and "sever Mjölnir from Thor" do mean the same thing once you isolate them from "I think Aaron's sentient hammer was, at least in part, a move to legitimise Jane's claim on Mjolnir and an attempt to […] " and "nobody is going to […]" respectively.

I think Aaron making Mjolnir a sentient being forced to serve the gods as a weapon, one that now awakened to free will chooses Jane over Odinson… that's a very good attempt to make putting Thor Odinson and Mjolnir together again awkward. I don't know how successful it will be, but it's a really good way of weakening Thor's claim on Mjolnir..

I could not agree more. Nothing undermines the whole 'If they be worthy, wield the power of Thor' clause in the hammer, then making that power someone/something else's entirely.

Awfully polite though, for that power to still put Jane in a Thor costume