Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2019

[JKtheMac]

Do we........actually agree on something ? LOL

This was indeed a very good issue and I liked Cul's redemption and inner dialogue very much,

There is bound to be some stuff we agree on.

but come on man, aren't you just a little frustrated that the Asgardian gods and everything related to Asgard has been portrayed so weak and puny ? I mean, Cul and Odin were defeated by a few Dark Elves, the same Dark Elves that freaking Daredevil, Punisher and Wolverine are making short work of.

Not really. Odin is shown to be weakened over time and there are some subtextual reasons hinted at too. He is just not as strong at the moment. How strong is Cul when he is seeking redemption?

He is playing against his supposed strengths. He was at his strongest when he was spreading fear and intrigue. Here he is undertaking a mission that has very little to do with fear. Indeed he is seeking to provide hope for the realms. In his flashback interaction with Malekith he kind of justifies his actions as not helping Malekith but he was. He used fear to promote isolation and non-intervention.

Odin called him on this. He understands that the fall of Asgardia was as a direct consequence of Cul’s choices. Odin was certainly not the most interventionist god, but he does understand War. He sends Cul on this mission assuming it will be suicide. They both know it. However, perhaps we are supposed to reassess Odin with this story. Did Odin see this potential in Cul? Is this why Odin was insisting upon Cul way back when they first came back? Odin perhaps glimpsed that deep beneath the scars and the front, that he was something else. He saw a version of himself that he could fix.

On the flip side, was Cul ultimately denying himself and his true nature, the more he emphasised fear. Perhaps he was he ultimately played out. His unrealised strength was being denied. He would have no idea why his strength was failing, that he is not drawing upon his true nature.

It is this kind of pondering and theorising about the deep motivations of damaged characters, that I love about Aaron’s Thor. We have never had this level of depth before. Not to the point we can get lost in the possible subtext. And yet, it is all under the shiny surface of comic book adventure.

[JKtheMac]

We all know Aaron likes to inject his atheist beliefs in the book, it's pretty evident he does not like God/Gods/Deities and may even be angry or resented at the idea of such a thing, and I understand this because I am an atheist myself, I share those beliefs, if there is such a thing as a God, I absolutely abhore him and think nothing of him, I tell you this so you can understand where I'm coming from, from a belief very similar to his own, so I can understand where Aaron comes from and his anger or constant diminishing of God, I really do because I feel the same way, his work speaks for itself and is sometimes not so subtle, even more so for someone who understands where he is coming from.

I would just tentatively suggest that you may be projecting your anger onto Aaron. As an agnostic skeptic I don’t have a single negative feeling about religion aside from knowing them to be misguided deep in my soul (joke intended). I live in a country that doesn’t really have a battleground over this. I have Christian friends and radical Atheist friends, but we all live in a generally secular society where the kind of questions I see in the US at the moment are broadly dismissed and ignored. Go and read up on the controversy over Cardinal Walter Kasper for daring to speak out against Atheism in the UK. Anyway, I have no desire to get into these debates because I am British

But there hangs my thesis. It is entirely possible to be an atheist who is not angry about religion. This could be because of Christian upbringing for example. I myself was brought up with a very strong Christian role model. A paragon of practical and pragmatic Christianity. When I realised I didn’t believe I didn’t strongly react against it. I just shrugged and acknowledged that religion can and should be a force for good in the world, but it needs a counterbalance both within and without.

We don’t actually know how Aaron feels about Christian or other religious views. We know he is not a believer, but when I read him I don’t see a radical Athiest treatise. I see someone like myself, exploring religion from a perspective of skepticism. I acknowledge that this may be me also projecting my views. We all do that.

[Wall-Crawler]

There is bound to be some stuff we agree on.

Not really. Odin is shown to be weakened over time and there are some subtextual reasons hinted at too. He is just not as strong at the moment. How strong is Cul when he is seeking redemption?

He is playing against his supposed strengths. He was at his strongest when he was spreading fear and intrigue. Here he is undertaking a mission that has very little to do with fear. Indeed he is seeking to provide hope for the realms. In his flashback interaction with Malekith he kind of justifies his actions as not helping Malekith but he was. He used fear to promote isolation and non-intervention.

Odin called him on this. He understands that the fall of Asgardia was as a direct consequence of Cul’s choices. Odin was certainly not the most interventionist god, but he does understand War. He sends Cul on this mission assuming it will be suicide. They both know it. However, perhaps we are supposed to reassess Odin with this story. Did Odin see this potential in Cul? Is this why Odin was insisting upon Cul way back when they first came back? Odin perhaps glimpsed that deep beneath the scars and the front, that he was something else. He saw a version of himself that he could fix.

On the flip side, was Cul ultimately denying himself and his true nature, the more he emphasised fear. Perhaps he was he ultimately played out. His unrealised strength was being denied. He would have no idea why his strength was failing, that he is not drawing upon his true nature.

It is this kind of pondering and theorising about the deep motivations of damaged characters, that I love about Aaron’s Thor. We have never had this level of depth before. Not to the point we can get lost in the possible subtext. And yet, it is all under the shiny surface of comic book adventure.

I get it, I get that Odin is supposed to be weakened, but no real explanation has been given as to why, only small hints which all involve him performing poorly in battle, but as I've said many times, his power is not the biggest problems, it's his characterisation, I mean, I don't see how you can be comfortable with Odin trembling in fear at the thought of Mnagog, hiding while his people are getting killed, a behavior he has never shown even once in his entire publication history, and I could go on and on with how Aaron has simply taken these character to the extremes, saying he has "laid waste to entire worlds" just for disrespecting him, which is something a tyrant would do, and Odin was never such a thing.

As for Cul, he is supposed to draw strength from people's fear and panic, as we saw during Fear Itself, where a whole planet in fear made him as powerful as Odin himself, but even without that source of power, he is still an asgardian god, a freaking Borson no less, his normal physical stats without any outside power up should be more than enough to absolutely wreck dozens and dozens of Dark Elves without any problem, you know, the same way Daredevil has been slaying them throughout this event......weakened or not, both Odin and Cul should be comfortably above street levelers from Midgard.

About Odin seeing Cul's redemption coming by sending him on a suicide mission, but one he knows will leave Cul fulfilled and redeemed, now that is very Odin-ish, the character I've known and loved for years, sadly he is still being shrouded by Aaron's mischaracterisation. I mean, man, I seriously have to tried seeing it from your point of view but I just can't understand how you are comfortable with what's been done to Odin.

The story Aaron is telling is not bad, it's the fact that he is changing the very core of the characters to tell it, I remember you saying that "Thor #10" was one of your all-time favorite single issues, and I do agree that it was an EXCELLENT issue, had it not been for the fact that the old god we witnessed there wasn't Odin and there was never this huge rivalry and lack of disrespect from Thor towards Odin, nor was Odin constantly drunk most of Thor's life, that's just bs from Aaron to further shove down the readers' throat how much of an ******* Odin is supposed to be.

[Thor-El]

Who's your favorite Thor voice?

Makes you realize how good is Hemsworth for the role, he takes this hands down. Travis Willingham, Dave Boat and Rick Wasserman get a honorable mention.

[GodThor]

wait Cul was wrekted by the Dark Elves???

WoW... just WoW.

good thing I don't read this anymore.

[Wall-Crawler]

I would just tentatively suggest that you may be projecting your anger onto Aaron. As an agnostic skeptic I don’t have a single negative feeling about religion aside from knowing them to be misguided deep in my soul (joke intended). I live in a country that doesn’t really have a battleground over this. I have Christian friends and radical Atheist friends, but we all live in a generally secular society where the kind of questions I see in the US at the moment are broadly dismissed and ignored. Go and read up on the controversy over Cardinal Walter Kasper for daring to speak out against Atheism in the UK. Anyway, I have no desire to get into these debates because I am British

But there hangs my thesis. It is entirely possible to be an atheist who is not angry about religion. This could be because of Christian upbringing for example. I myself was brought up with a very strong Christian role model. A paragon of practical and pragmatic Christianity. When I realised I didn’t believe I didn’t strongly react against it. I just shrugged and acknowledged that religion can and should be a force for good in the world, but it needs a counterbalance both within and without.

We don’t actually know how Aaron feels about Christian or other religious views. We know he is not a believer, but when I read him I don’t see a radical Athiest treatise. I see someone like myself, exploring religion from a perspective of skepticism. I acknowledge that this may be me also projecting my views. We all do that.

Yes I am projecting, but I am doing so because what Aaron does is very apparent to one who does or thinks the same, his work speaks for itself, he injects every book he writes with this constant questioning and diminishing of god, and what more clear examples do you want than the two I already gave you, especially the Wolverine instance. You speak of projecting, well, you can be damn sure that Aaron is projecting his beliefs onto his writing and does so even more now that he has his hands on a character based on Gods and surrounded by Gods, he's grabbed the perfect opportunity to explore just how useless gods are while showing humans being more capable. Which is, quite clearly, the way he feels. But like I said, he should have grabbed this opportunity and make Thor and Asgard into the Gods/Pantheon he'd like to have, and I can assure you, had he done that, his run would not be as divisive and IMO would have been more accepted by Thor fans, maybe not as appealing to the wider audience like his current run is, but certainly more liked and dare I say praised by Thor fans.

By the way, I was raised by catholic parents, and my grandparents are very catholic, so it's not like I live surrounded by hatred of gods or anything, I'm from Mexico, you know, the country that was conquered by Spain and imposed the catholic religion, the same religion that about 90% of Mexicans have, and I don't hate God, it's just that I don't believe he exists, and if he does, well then he is certainly NOT the all-loving god they sell us.

[kilderkin]

Yes I am projecting, but I am doing so because what Aaron does is very apparent to one who does or thinks the same, his work speaks for itself, he injects every book he writes with this constant questioning and diminishing of god, and what more clear examples do you want than the two I already gave you, especially the Wolverine instance. You speak of projecting, well, you can be damn sure that Aaron is projecting his beliefs onto his writing and does so even more now that he has his hands on a character based on Gods and surrounded by Gods, he's grabbed the perfect opportunity to explore just how useless gods are while showing humans being more capable. Which is, quite clearly, the way he feels. But like I said, he should have grabbed this opportunity and make Thor and Asgard into the Gods/Pantheon he'd like to have, and I can assure you, had he done that, his run would not be as divisive and IMO would have been more accepted by Thor fans, maybe not as appealing to the wider audience like his current run is, but certainly more liked and dare I say praised by Thor fans.

By the way, I was raised by catholic parents, and my grandparents are very catholic, so it's not like I live surrounded by hatred of gods or anything, I'm from Mexico, you know, the country that was conquered by Spain and imposed the catholic religion, the same religion that about 90% of Mexicans have, and I don't hate God, it's just that I don't believe he exists, and if he does, well then he is certainly NOT the all-loving god they sell us.

I have long felt he was projecting his own views into the mythos

Whilst I appreciate that might be a norm for writers

It is imo the main reason I dislike this work, imo he has done little but damage the mystery of the journey

Sorry, couldn't resist the pun

[Frontier]

Odin's character has been way off since he returned back from the dead under Fraction but at least Fraction showed how powerful Odin is near his prime.

Aaron cannot even do that.

it seems to me Aaron wants to make Odin like the MCU version - weakly old man that only sits on his throne, walks around and is dying but at least he was portrayed well personality wise.

I said this before, Odin's death during Dan J. run was really well done and he should have stayed dead.

Aaron's Odin is nowhere near as imposing and regal as MCU Odin.

Makes you realize how good is Hemsworth for the role, he takes this hands down. Travis Willingham, Dave Boat and Rick Wasserman get a honorable mention.

Wasserman has my vote.

Willingham is solid but I think he's brought down by the material he has to work with, but that's a problem for a lot of Marvel VA's in the cartoons.

[GodThor]

Aaron's Odin is nowhere near as imposing and regal as MCU Odin.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

MCU Odin was great personality wise.

Aaron's Odin is just... ugh.

[JKtheMac]

Yes I am projecting, but I am doing so because what Aaron does is very apparent to one who does or thinks the same, his work speaks for itself, he injects every book he writes with this constant questioning and diminishing of god, and what more clear examples do you want than the two I already gave you, especially the Wolverine instance. You speak of projecting, well, you can be damn sure that Aaron is projecting his beliefs onto his writing and does so even more now that he has his hands on a character based on Gods and surrounded by Gods, he's grabbed the perfect opportunity to explore just how useless gods are while showing humans being more capable. Which is, quite clearly, the way he feels. But like I said, he should have grabbed this opportunity and make Thor and Asgard into the Gods/Pantheon he'd like to have, and I can assure you, had he done that, his run would not be as divisive and IMO would have been more accepted by Thor fans, maybe not as appealing to the wider audience like his current run is, but certainly more liked and dare I say praised by Thor fans.

By the way, I was raised by catholic parents, and my grandparents are very catholic, so it's not like I live surrounded by hatred of gods or anything, I'm from Mexico, you know, the country that was conquered by Spain and imposed the catholic religion, the same religion that about 90% of Mexicans have, and I don't hate God, it's just that I don't believe he exists, and if he does, well then he is certainly NOT the all-loving god they sell us.

You seem totally convinced but believe me when I say I just don’t see it. What I see is an atheist writer genuinely exploring what it means to be a god, more specifically a god worthy of worship, even more specifically Thor. I can’t remember even thinking ‘he has it in for gods’ I am actually not convinced he is particularly anti religion. I remember a brief twitter exchange in which a clearly radical atheist cheered on what he considered a radical atheist point and the only real reply was a half hearted thanks for liking my book style response. I remember thinking the atheist had kind of missed the point of the story and that Aaron was politely not contradicting him.

I have never noticed an anti religious message but yes there are clear indications that he doesn’t believe in god. So what? Isn’t he allowed to express some of his beliefs in his comics? He is hardly making it a major issue. He isn’t preaching Atheist ideals. He is doing almost the opposite. Thoughtfully exploring the always slightly artificial notion of gods in the Marvel Universe and asking what their place is.

Philip Pullman expresses atheist ideas in his books and interviews. They are miles away from anything Aaron has ever expressed.

[Immortal Hulk]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

MCU Odin was great personality wise.

Aaron's Odin is just... ugh.

Aaron turned one of the coolest Marvel characters gods into "this"...

[JKtheMac]

I get it, I get that Odin is supposed to be weakened, but no real explanation has been given as to why, only small hints which all involve him performing poorly in battle, but as I've said many times, his power is not the biggest problems, it's his characterisation, I mean, I don't see how you can be comfortable with Odin trembling in fear at the thought of Mnagog, hiding while his people are getting killed, a behavior he has never shown even once in his entire publication history, and I could go on and on with how Aaron has simply taken these character to the extremes, saying he has "laid waste to entire worlds" just for disrespecting him, which is something a tyrant would do, and Odin was never such a thing.

You need to go read your Mangog stories again. He has indeed been frightened of him, and he has had a power upgrade since. One of the stories was entirely predicated on Odin being scared of him. And we did see why he was weak when he was nearly killed. He was worked to the last of his power and then battered half to death by Thor. Kind of takes it out of a god.

As for Cul, he is supposed to draw strength from people's fear and panic, as we saw during Fear Itself, where a whole planet in fear made him as powerful as Odin himself,

And it turns out he wasn’t the god of fear, he just thought he was. So that changes things in retrospect.

but even without that source of power, he is still an asgardian god, a freaking Borson no less, his normal physical stats without any outside power up should be more than enough to absolutely wreck dozens and dozens of Dark Elves without any problem, you know, the same way Daredevil has been slaying them throughout this event......weakened or not, both Odin and Cul should be comfortably above street levelers from Midgard.

Stats? Is this a tabletop game. If so he is depleted because his power has never been used correctly and he deliberately didn’t fight dozens of anything so what’s the problem. He didn’t destroy the mushrooms because he was bound to loose, he destroyed them because it was the right thing to do. He was either going to have to keep fighting for an extended period and risk the kids being captured, or sacrifice himself out of love. Because that’s what he really was. A god of love, abashed and denied by his upbringing. Besides, you seem to consider a few dozen Dark Elves to be somehow weak. That’s just not true.

About Odin seeing Cul's redemption coming by sending him on a suicide mission, but one he knows will leave Cul fulfilled and redeemed, now that is very Odin-ish, the character I've known and loved for years, sadly he is still being shrouded by Aaron's mischaracterisation. I mean, man, I seriously have to tried seeing it from your point of view but I just can't understand how you are comfortable with what's been done to Odin.

Comfortable isn’t the word. Aaron has written my favourite Odin ever. What can I say other than I adore him. He’s a dysfunctional bundle of contradictions that says so much about masculinity. It speaks to me as a man of a certain age who grew up around mildly dysfunctional men who couldn’t express their feelings for each other. He reminds me of my grandfather, he reminds me of my father and he reminds me of myself. How can I not love him?

The story Aaron is telling is not bad, it's the fact that he is changing the very core of the characters to tell it, I remember you saying that "Thor #10" was one of your all-time favorite single issues, and I do agree that it was an EXCELLENT issue, had it not been for the fact that the old god we witnessed there wasn't Odin and there was never this huge rivalry and lack of disrespect from Thor towards Odin, nor was Odin constantly drunk most of Thor's life, that's just bs from Aaron to further shove down the readers' throat how much of an ******* Odin is supposed to be.

I think you are reading a little more into what that issue actually is saying. He isn’t saying Odin has been a drunkard. He is simply saying that at the moment of his son’s birth he was anxious, possibly terrified, and instead of being at the birth he got drunk. He isn’t saying he doesn’t respect Thor, he is saying he can’t express that respect. He tries to and it ends up coming out as harsh and influenced by his relationship with his own father. He has indeed been portrayed more times than not, as this kind of distant father who didn’t confide in anyone. Not always expressed negatively, but expressed nonetheless.

[Wall-Crawler]

You need to go read your Mangog stories again. He has indeed been frightened of him, and he has had a power upgrade since. One of the stories was entirely predicated on Odin being scared of him. And we did see why he was weak when he was nearly killed. He was worked to the last of his power and then battered half to death by Thor. Kind of takes it out of a god.

Yes, Odin has been afraid of Mangog, I think you got me wrong or I didn't express myself right, he has indeed been afraid of Mangog, but he has never been a coward who hides and runs away from battle while his people are dying.

Stats? Is this a tabletop game. If so he is depleted because his power has never been used correctly and he deliberately didn’t fight dozens of anything so what’s the problem. He didn’t destroy the mushrooms because he was bound to loose, he destroyed them because it was the right thing to do. He was either going to have to keep fighting for an extended period and risk the kids being captured, or sacrifice himself out of love. Because that’s what he really was. A god of love, abashed and denied by his upbringing. Besides, you seem to consider a few dozen Dark Elves to be somehow weak. That’s just not true.

His physicals stats, you know, strength, durability, stamina etc....asgardians gods, especially Cul/Thor/Odin are superhuman in all regards and are laughably superior in all aspects to the likes of Daredevil, Punisher, Logan etc...so it makes no sense that the Midgard guys are going around wrecking dozens of Dark Elves whereas Odin and Cul get overwhelmed by about five, however you look at it, the power levels are being interpreted very wrong by Aaron. But this is part of what I've been telling you, he grabs any opportunity he has to showcase humans are superior to gods in all regards.

Comfortable isn’t the word. Aaron has written my favourite Odin ever. What can I say other than I adore him. He’s a dysfunctional bundle of contradictions that says so much about masculinity. It speaks to me as a man of a certain age who grew up around mildly dysfunctional men who couldn’t express their feelings for each other. He reminds me of my grandfather, he reminds me of my father and he reminds me of myself. How can I not love him?

Wow, I just....I can't see it, this is a completely different character than the wise and benevolent king we came to know, I guess you didn't like or cared for that version, which is the only explanation I can find for someone to like this completely different version of the character, and that's not wrong or anything, but this is simply not the Odin pre-Ragnarok, and what irks me is that you constantly try to pretend it is.

I think you are reading a little more into what that issue actually is saying. He isn’t saying Odin has been a drunkard. He is simply saying that at the moment of his son’s birth he was anxious, possibly terrified, and instead of being at the birth he got drunk. He isn’t saying he doesn’t respect Thor, he is saying he can’t express that respect. He tries to and it ends up coming out as harsh and influenced by his relationship with his own father. He has indeed been portrayed more times than not, as this kind of distant father who didn’t confide in anyone. Not always expressed negatively, but expressed nonetheless.

Yes, he kind of is, and that's a retcon, Odin was not drunk during Thor's birth, and yes, Odin has always had trouble confiding in people and expressing his love for Thor, but it never came to the point of them insulting each other, dimisnishing each other and almost killing each other, that's taking it to the extremes, and like I said, if you like it, that's fine, but don't act like this has precedent or is rooted in canon, because it is not, Aaron grabs some aspects and multiplies them by a million, this was never the relationship Thor and Odin had.

[Doombot]

Man, reading this threat is like watching people repeatedly bash their own heads off a wall.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I have never noticed an anti religious message but yes there are clear indications that he doesn’t believe in god. So what? Isn’t he allowed to express some of his beliefs in his comics? He is hardly making it a major issue. He isn’t preaching Atheist ideals. He is doing almost the opposite. Thoughtfully exploring the always slightly artificial notion of gods in the Marvel Universe and asking what their place is.

Philip Pullman expresses atheist ideas in his books and interviews. They are miles away from anything Aaron has ever expressed.

All writers bring their beliefs to their writing, but it becomes wrong when you turn characters into strawmen to express those beliefs, and that's exactly what Aaron's done.

Take Thor becoming unworthy, that Gorr was right (Gods all suck). Imagine if Gorr said the same about say, African Americans or Hispanics? We'd see it rightfully as racism, as disparaging an entire class of people, and 'confirming it' with Thor's unworthiness. But because it's regarding Gods (entirely fictional), it slides under the radar.

(and to be clear, I don't think it deserves the same outrage as if Gorr said the same of African Americans/Hispanics. No Asgardian/God has suffered real discrimination, 'cause they ain't real. But it still inhabits the same level of ignorance as actual racism).

Take Jane Thor. Traditionally, replacement characters are designed/used to show how heavy a burden it is to carry the legacy of the original (Just ask Walker). But we see Jane leap ahead of Thor, despite no real background in combat (vs. Thor's thousands of years) and everyone fawning over her. Even at the end of her arc, Thor is not restored, and still left in her shadow.

And then take Aaron constantly showing Thor 'virtue signalling' with his hammer. For those who've not heard the term, 'virtue signalling' is an accusation atheists toss out against the religious, arguing that they themselves are not good to be good, but to get into heaven/not go to hell/to look down on others who are not pious (and to be clear, I think it a fair term to use on some).

Under Aaron, we constantly see Thor doing good deeds not because it is the right thing to do, but because he really wants to lift that hammer.

And even all that aside? You can only disparage Gods/religion in your stories so many times before your agenda starts a showin'.