Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2019

[Thievery]

I guess that I should clarify that when I said casual fans, I meant that I talk to readers that will buy comics monthly, they just aren't as hardcore enough to come on a message board and talk about every little thing in a comic. I will meat them in comic shops, but also places like libraries, book stores, and collectible shops.

I hadn't meant for the topic about less hardcore fans to only include shipping. They also will tend to have some differing opinions on different comic runs, or story lines. The group think and complaining on this forum isn't shared by the overall fandom on many things.

I liked Warren and X-23 and felt they were unfairly hated. I think many here were just bitter he wasnt Scott

I think that this plays a large role as to why Angel/X-23 was disliked. I read the teen Cyclops/X-23 story as set up for Laura to have an unrequited love story with Cyclops. Seeing as Bendis was really into Cyclops/Jean, I always doubted that he wanted Scott/Laura. The Cyclops/X-23 story just really took off on this forum. I have to admit that I liked Cyclops/X-23. I think that I didn't care for Angel/X-23 because I just felt that there wasn't enough set up. Just my opinion.

I hang out in a lot of different circles so my opinions vary widely. It is why I am not opposed to two characters being together as long as they are happy. So I like multiple ships of the same character. Since I hang out more in places that do fanfiction type things I get more of the people who jumped on Angel due to the actor who plays him due to him being in a popular british soap opera before getting the role. Considering he also landed the role as Roger in Bohemian Rhapsody that is even more fire to the fanfic role. In that circle they prefer Angel single and "bad boy" for obvious reasons. There was also a boost of popularity among some anime fans with shipping AngelxNightcrawler in the movie due to the angel/demon dynamic that was presented in the movie. It is interesting how different circles see the same character in multiple ways.

I try to talk to as many different groups of fans as I can also. It's interesting to me to see opinions that are different than mine, and find out why people have different opinions from mine. I like the CBR forum, and enjoy posting here, but it's not always the best place to come for a dissenting discussion. I've seen some people who don't go along with orthodox group think really get shut down. CBR is still a lot better than some other sites that I have seen. So yay for us.

I haven't seen X-Men Apocalypse, or Bohemian Rhapsody. So I don't know exactly drives those ships. But, good for those shippers if they are having fun with it.

I usually stick to my ships and rarely if ever change them so I don't have multiple ships with the characters, but different writers do portray different pairings differently...

We've all noticed your dogmatic, and obsessive hammering of your favorite ships. You dogmatic hater of every thing that doesn't come from the 90's .

I'm not a "die for my ship" kind of gal. Frabkly, I find extreme shippers sort of freaky. Those people will cut you! I mean, I know even this site can have its own toxic moments, but on a whole this is one of the healthier fan communities when it comes to shipping.

I think the main issue with Angel and Psylocke is that they're just not in a ton of movies or cartoons or video games. And when they are, they aren't the main focus.

This is especially true for Psylocke, a character who can be rather problematic because...well...

And slash/yaoi ships almost always get more play by hardcore fans.

I find extreme shipping to be a little creepy also. It just seems a little strange to me to get that caught up in the love life of fictional characters.

I ship a few things like Archangel/Moonstar, but mostly I just read the stories. Right now, I'd like to read more about Chamber/Jubilee, just because I think it could lead to some fun, new stories. I'm really opposed to Archangel/Psylocke, Scott/Jean, and Havok/Polaris. I just find their stories to be played out and toxic for the characters. I'd just rather read new stories involving new pairings than nostalgia pairings.Good for anyone else who enjoys old pairings, though. That's as far as I go with having feelings about particular ships.

[Rosebunse]

When I think of casual fans, I guess I consider those to be people who read trades once in a while. What you're referring to I just consider fans. And then there are the more hardcore folks like us.

While I don't believe in shipping, I can't get into a franchise-be it anime, comics, TV, games-without really getting into. Because of that, I have to be a bit picky. I sort envy people who don't get addicted to fandoms. Of course, I try to be a healthy member of a community.

I think the most toxic fandom I have seen was the Steven Universe fandom. Those people are nuts. The fandom has many fine members, but there's a not insignificant number of them who are actually crazy and who will hunt you down. They make Harry Potter fans seem tame.

I don't think just basic shipping is bad. It can be fun! But the hardcore shipping weird me out. I was there for the Great Naruto Shipping Wars and it was something else. People lost friends in that one.

Part of the issues with a lot if those couples is that it feels like they could be interesting if someone would just admit how unhealthy they are, especially the middle one.

Look at what Cates is doing in Venom: he's able to acknowledge that Eddie and Venom are very unstable people who shouldn't be together, while we're also able to see why they do work. The question becomes if the good outweighs the bad.

At least in Anfel/Psylocke and Havok/Polaris, we've seen writers sort of want to explore the less healthy parts of their relationships. This is less evident with Jean and Scott, two people who just need to stay away from each other.

[Izanami]

I think that it's more that Marvel doesn't want to push many characters past a few for movies and cartoons and such, they go with the best selling characters in their eyes and Warren's wings would probably cause problems for the movies and games and such, and his powers don't always look "cool" enough, though Betsy has been in some games and such...

It's 2019 Characters with wings are no problem just look at the winged Valkyries in God of War and Aion. It's just a lame excuse on Marvels part. They need to step up their game when you have an enemy that can do this. They also badly nerfed Archangel in Contest of Champions because players figured out how to abuse his paralyzing feather toxin mechanic. *sigh*

[Izanami]

When I think of casual fans, I guess I consider those to be people who read trades once in a while. What you're referring to I just consider fans. And then there are the more hardcore folks like us.

While I don't believe in shipping, I can't get into a franchise-be it anime, comics, TV, games-without really getting into. Because of that, I have to be a bit picky. I sort envy people who don't get addicted to fandoms. Of course, I try to be a healthy member of a community.

I think the most toxic fandom I have seen was the Steven Universe fandom. Those people are nuts. The fandom has many fine members, but there's a not insignificant number of them who are actually crazy and who will hunt you down. They make Harry Potter fans seem tame.

I don't think just basic shipping is bad. It can be fun! But the hardcore shipping weird me out. I was there for the Great Naruto Shipping Wars and it was something else. People lost friends in that one.

Part of the issues with a lot if those couples is that it feels like they could be interesting if someone would just admit how unhealthy they are, especially the middle one.

Look at what Cates is doing in Venom: he's able to acknowledge that Eddie and Venom are very unstable people who shouldn't be together, while we're also able to see why they do work. The question becomes if the good outweighs the bad.

At least in Angel/Psylocke and Havok/Polaris, we've seen writers sort of want to explore the less healthy parts of their relationships. This is less evident with Jean and Scott, two people who just need to stay away from each other.

I am glad you survived the Steven Universe Fandom and Naruto shipping wars. I was almost gutted in the Avatar fandom due to me liking Katang and seeing it as the ship that won, Zutara fans were not happy. Funny how I shipped Asami and Korra as early as Season 2 because of that godawful love triangle. Then they won. That joke I made early on about me wishing they were a couple every opportunity I got really went places years later. Who knew. I stay away from certain fandoms because of this. CBR can get crazy at times but it nothing compared to the intense flamewars i've seen. They are a few bans and purgers here and there but they are tame considering the hell some places are. I left Naruto after a while and came back for the finale but I was a casual manga reader so I didn't really deal with the anime. Right now I am rewatching Bojack Horseman and Boardwalk Empire. I usually enjoy works of art where there are no villains or the main characters are shades of both and flawed. Makes things more interesting than purely good and evil.
I feel like the unhealthy parts of those relationships can easily fall towards the Fantomex/Psylocke ship after a while.

[Thievery]

Holly hell, Rosebunse. Those other sites with the shipping wars you describe sound brutal. Especially this Narutu thing where people lost friends.

I don't mind reading about a romance gone bad like Psylocke/Archangel, or Polaris/Havok. Reading about a dysfunctional couple can be more interesting than a stable one. I just have a hard time with Psylocke/Archangel, because I've spent a lot of time and money collecting many of their back issues when they are togather. I've collected as many as I can because I started out as an Archangel fan. Too many of their stories read as too similar to me to want to see more of them. I know that you have said that they were togather when you started reading so I get how you can still find them entertaining.

I'd disagree that they have had their less healthy side explored more than Jean and Scott, though. I don't know if you have managed to read any of their 60's stories togather, but their pretty unhealthy. Scott and Jean constantly pine for each other without even trying to talk to each other. Scott in particular looks like a brooding chump. There 60's romance stories were slow, boring and moved at the speed of a glacier. Later on you would have Scott's marriage to Maddie, Scott abandoning Maddie for Jean, Scott and Jean getting married, and finally Scott cheating on Jean. Oh, and multiple deaths.

Even Betsy injuring Angel with a Life Seed looks normal compared to Scott/Jean. Just my opinion

EDIT: Damn, Izanami. It sounds like you were hounded pretty badly in some shipping wars also. How do you put up with crap like that. I would give up and never return.

[Izanami]

Archangel literally nerfs Thanos. You don't even have him be level 5 to take at minimum 80 percent damage and then finish him off with another character. You could use other Avengers but considering how far AA goes... :P You can beat Thanos with a 5-star Archangel in less than 5 minutes if you are very skillful...

[Rosebunse]

I am glad you survived the Steven Universe Fandom and Naruto shipping wars. I was almost gutted in the Avatar fandom due to me liking Katang and seeing it as the ship that won, Zutara fans were not happy. Funny how I shipped Asami and Korra as early as Season 2 because of that godawful love triangle. Then they won. That joke I made early on about me wishing they were a couple every opportunity I got really went places years later. Who knew. I stay away from certain fandoms because of this. CBR can get crazy at times but it nothing compared to the intense flamewars i've seen. They are a few bans and purgers here and there but they are tame considering the hell some places are. I left Naruto after a while and came back for the finale but I was a casual manga reader so I didn't really deal with the anime. Right now I am rewatching Bojack Horseman and Boardwalk Empire. I usually enjoy works of art where there are no villains or the main characters are shades of both and flawed. Makes things more interesting than purely good and evil.
I feel like the unhealthy parts of those relationships can easily fall towards the Fantomex/Psylocke ship after a while.

Damn, the Avatar fandom is brutal! I think a lot of them found their way to the Steven Universe fandom and that's part of why it's so nuts. They just never got over Katara not getting with Zuko.

I didn't ship Asami with Cora, but it's a pairing that works dammit! You should be proud that your ship won!

Holly hell, Rosebunse. Those other sites with the shipping wars you describe sound brutal. Especially this Narutu thing where people lost friends.

I don't mind reading about a romance gone bad like Psylocke/Archangel, or Polaris/Havok. Reading about a dysfunctional couple can be more interesting than a stable one. I just have a hard time with Psylocke/Archangel, because I've spent a lot of time and money collecting many of their back issues when they are togather. I've collected as many as I can because I started out as an Archangel fan. Too many of their stories read as too similar to me to want to see more of them. I know that you have said that they were togather when you started reading so I get how you can still find them entertaining.

I'd disagree that they have had their less healthy side explored more than Jean and Scott, though. I don't know if you have managed to read any of their 60's stories togather, but their pretty unhealthy. Scott and Jean constantly pine for each other without even trying to talk to each other. Scott in particular looks like a brooding chump. There 60's romance stories were slow, boring and moved at the speed of a glacier. Later on you would have Scott's marriage to Maddie, Scott abandoning Maddie for Jean, Scott and Jean getting married, and finally Scott cheating on Jean. Oh, and multiple deaths.

Even Betsy injuring Angel with a Life Seed looks normal compared to Scott/Jean. Just my opinion

EDIT: Damn, Izanami. It sounds like you were hounded pretty badly in some shipping wars also. How do you put up with crap like that. I would give up and never return.

I guess the real difference between Jean and Scott and Betsy and Warren is that Betsy and Warren just feel more like adults. Their relationship is sexual, it's based on love, they do communicate and wish for the best for each other even when they aren't together. They're friends.

I don't think I explained myself well: I meant that Jean and Scott are just so incredibly unhealthy for each other that I feel like writers gloss over it. Not all writers, but many do.

Scott is obsessed with her, yet is she is simply unable to completely give into him because that just isn't who she is. Also she's dead half the time.

However, because Jean is put on such a pedastal, unlike Betsy, she isn't allowed to come to terms with her faults and issues. And everyone fucking loves her despite the fact that she's a bitch.

And Scott...my God. He cheated on his dead wife right on her grave site! With his doctor, a woman who in some legal sense raped him. And make no mistake, Emma was totally going to rape Tyke eventually too...

You know, Emma, Scott and Jean are just all so toxic to each other.

[Rosebunse]

Archangel literally nerfs Thanos. You don't even have him be level 5 to take at minimum 80 percent damage and then finish him off with another character. You could use other Avengers but considering how far AA goes... :P You can beat Thanos with a 5-star Archangel in less than 5 minutes if you are very skillful...

In the headcanon of my mind, I feel like this is acceptable. Also, it'd be cool if someone just picked up some of Archangel's spent poison-tipped feathers and replicated the toxin.

[Izanami]

Damn, the Avatar fandom is brutal! I think a lot of them found their way to the Steven Universe fandom and that's part of why it's so nuts. They just never got over Katara not getting with Zuko. I didn't ship Asami with Korra, but it's a pairing that works dammit! You should be proud that your ship won!

Thanks. The only reason I shipped was due to how awful the romance was in season 1 and 2. Asami only existed as a plot device to add drama to Korra and Mako in the worst way possible. Good thing they had two more seasons to repair the damage but it was too far gone. Some folks just did not come back to Korra and I can completely understand why. Sadly people hound you if you tell them why some folks did not like Korra. With the live action remake for the last airbender coming up, I feel the creators are going to go full George Lucas. You heard it here first folks.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I just meant that over the years leading up to now Warren's wings may have been hard to animate or create for games and such, I got into comics in the 90's really and since then haven't seen anything that really stands up to those pairings and such, and W/B and Alex/Lorna are two of my favorite ships...the only toxic parts are some of the writing...but not all...

I've watched Korra but I don't go to those fanboards, nothing against them or anything just that I'm not that into the series is all, or Naruto, to many episodes and all...

[spirit2011]

Damn, the Avatar fandom is brutal! I think a lot of them found their way to the Steven Universe fandom and that's part of why it's so nuts. They just never got over Katara not getting with Zuko.

I didn't ship Asami with Cora, but it's a pairing that works dammit! You should be proud that your ship won!

I guess the real difference between Jean and Scott and Betsy and Warren is that Betsy and Warren just feel more like adults. Their relationship is sexual, it's based on love, they do communicate and wish for the best for each other even when they aren't together. They're friends.

I don't think I explained myself well: I meant that Jean and Scott are just so incredibly unhealthy for each other that I feel like writers gloss over it. Not all writers, but many do.

Scott is obsessed with her, yet is she is simply unable to completely give into him because that just isn't who she is. Also she's dead half the time.

However, because Jean is put on such a pedastal, unlike Betsy, she isn't allowed to come to terms with her faults and issues. And everyone fucking loves her despite the fact that she's a bitch.

And Scott...my God. He cheated on his dead wife right on her grave site! With his doctor, a woman who in some legal sense raped him. And make no mistake, Emma was totally going to rape Tyke eventually too...

You know, Emma, Scott and Jean are just all so toxic to each other.

what you said, but I disagree that Jean is a bitch.

I liked teenwarren and laura relationship, but later writers just dropped it silently

[Rosebunse]

Well, looks like Betsy is getting wit Blob.

Commence the rioting!

[AJpyro]

When I think of casual fans, I guess I consider those to be people who read trades once in a while. What you're referring to I just consider fans. And then there are the more hardcore folks like us.

While I don't believe in shipping, I can't get into a franchise-be it anime, comics, TV, games-without really getting into. Because of that, I have to be a bit picky. I sort envy people who don't get addicted to fandoms. Of course, I try to be a healthy member of a community.

I think the most toxic fandom I have seen was the Steven Universe fandom. Those people are nuts. The fandom has many fine members, but there's a not insignificant number of them who are actually crazy and who will hunt you down. They make Harry Potter fans seem tame.

I don't think just basic shipping is bad. It can be fun! But the hardcore shipping weird me out. I was there for the Great Naruto Shipping Wars and it was something else. People lost friends in that one.

Part of the issues with a lot if those couples is that it feels like they could be interesting if someone would just admit how unhealthy they are, especially the middle one.

Look at what Cates is doing in Venom: he's able to acknowledge that Eddie and Venom are very unstable people who shouldn't be together, while we're also able to see why they do work. The question becomes if the good outweighs the bad.

At least in Anfel/Psylocke and Havok/Polaris, we've seen writers sort of want to explore the less healthy parts of their relationships. This is less evident with Jean and Scott, two people who just need to stay away from each other.

Ah so you are fellow survivor of the AHoD. Man 4chan got wild over that.

[Izanami]

Well, looks like Betsy is getting wit Blob.

Commence the rioting!

Only hardcore shippers get angry when a character dates another. Everyone else is meh. Comics are ongoing series, characters have multiple partners at this point.

[Thievery]

what you said, but I disagree that Jean is a bitch.

I liked teenwarren and laura relationship, but later writers just dropped it silently

Part of the reason that teen Angel and Laura were dropped was because Gabby ended up taking panel time away from Angel. I believe that I saw Taylor say that somewhere. He didn't mind writing Angel, but he was more interested in Gabby.

This is just a guess on my part, but I think that Jimmy Hudson's spot in Blue probably made Laura feel redundant, and that could be why X-23 wasn't in that comic.

Well, looks like Betsy is getting wit Blob.

Commence the rioting!

You will get no rioting from me . Blob/Psylocke is unexpected enough to make me interested. Something new for Psylocke that doesn't involve Archangel.

It seam's on the surface that this will be another unattractive guy get's the hot girl story. I'm not trying to fat shame, or say that Blob doesn't deserve to be loved, that's just how it looks to me. I hope that I am wrong and there is more to it than that.