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  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post

    As for her teleportation, it never made sense to me that 'the farther she traveled, the greater the time-skip. If she already has to go to Limbo first, then total distance should not matter. Limbo is a different dimension whose relative point to anywhere in our universe should be the same, so it shouldn't make any difference if she's teleporting to the next room or to the next galaxy.

    I've been saying for years that I'd like to see more logical limits placed on her ability to summon stepping disks, for instance that summoning a large number of stepping disks at once, one really big stepping disk, or keeping a portal open for an extended period of time would put a big strain on her. So if she transported a large group of X-Men to a battle she might have to sit the opening of the battle out to recover from the large teleportation. She's already OP without her mutant powers. She doesn't need to be able to decapitate entire armies from another continent.
    I originally disliked the time slippage gimmick, thinking it might be an act for underestimation & so she didn't dwarf the rest of the group, but now I feel it made sense.

    In terms of 'effort', she only ever seemed stressed by the *size* of the Inferno Times Square disk, plus was defeated by barriers of the Adversary, Enchantress, and the Hydra takeover.

    For me her limit wasn't strength, but precision & aim.

    The fact is, that there is a LOT of space-time, billions of years and light-years to choose from, like finding a particular grain of sand in all the beaches of the world.

    Many mutant powers come with extra senses, like Ororo's elemental awareness, Richtor & Magma's perception of the Earth etc.

    Somehow Magik can sense going-on within Limbo while on Earth (can give demons orders with no visible interactions) and on Earth from Limbo, but what direction do you point to go to when John Fitzgerald Kennedy assassinated president Oswald?

    A one-eyed horseshoe player might have perfect angle throws, but getting the depth right would be hard, and would get worse the greater the overall range

    I suspect when she departs Earth, Asgaard, Hala etc, that she leaves an 'anchor' trail, a bookmark 'search history’ that lets her easily go back close to where she started, rather than having to search through all the galaxies, millennia, and alternate histories of the multiverse every time. It isn't a matter of having to go through all the books of the library of Congress every teleport, but I suspect the time element was like loosing track of which page of a particular book she was reading.

    Later she developed scrying pools that allowed her to view the target area, summon a disk there, and only step through if a portal opens where the screen is aimed. I refer specifically to TNM v1 #46, the issue where she kidnaps Moira to provide medical care in the Mutant Massacre, and they have to wait a few minutes to synchronize until after the time they left before re-entering Earth (demonstrating she could spy on anywhen and anywhere, tracking histories, recovering lost artifacts etc.)

    (Does anyone remember a panel when Illyana held a dozen candle-flame sized portals floating around her head? We hardly ever saw Illyana practicing her powers, and unlike Cannonball endlessly trying to learn to maneuver, we basically never saw her try out or experiment with her time-travel abilities, given that finding her way back from an error might be insurmountable.

    (If you accidentally end up in Guam you could take a flight back, but if you end up in a timesteam where the letter 'C' was never invented, how do you get back if you haven't left a trail behind? There are a transinfinite possible histories, with a lot more than 3 dimensions of directions to search through, if you've ever watched the series 'Sliders’ for example.

    (I also always wondered about using the disks as 'botched' teleports, say pushing a disk through an object to leave a hole, having two sides in the ocean or core of the Earth or sun to create a firehose of water, lava, or plasma, or closing one that's halfway through a person for chopping/decapitation purposes etc...
    Last edited by G0RM; 11-17-2019 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by G0RM View Post
    Do you think the characters (and possibly the authors) are currently forgetting Canon, in that Illyana had previously and repeatedly demonstrated she was (like Lila Cheney) an intergalactic teleporter?

    I'm seeing on the page suggestions from the characters that they believe the Krakoan flower is their only way back, rather than Magik just trivially teleporting them to Limbo, then back to Earth.

    Does anyone care about Canon anymore?

    Is this like how in AvX they forgot that Rachel held the Phoenix Force for years?
    By trapped in space I mean that 1.) they have no way to contact her while she’s captured to let her know they need her help (same with Doug who is also captured l), 2.) she was shown to be injured last we saw, 3.) Russians have been shown to be using power dampeners and Shi’ar tech being more advanced means she and the other new mutants could just as well have their mutations suppressed which would disable her stepping discs.

    That said, I also happen to think that with the death of Charles and the fact that the island is on “lockdown” according to magneto that they might disallow any teleportation that they can’t selectively approve of. Krakoa is a sentient island and capable of all sorts of stuff (and has been for decades), and scrambling teleporter powers seems like it wouldn’t be a tough thing to do.

    That said ordinarily (ignoring the above circumstances) Illyana should probably be able to teleport from anywhere in space to earth relatively easy. The issue would only be with trying to be specific on teleporting, say, back to the starjammer ship (or any other moving, relatively small object in space). Without a way to focus on a ship traveling at high speeds I think she would have issues hitting the right spot, and the consequences for missing would be too high for her to risk it.

    But I see that as why they put the flower on the starjammer ship anyway—use Illyana to port back to earth easily and use the krakoan portal to get back to the ship just as easily.

    YMMV. I think her portals are kind of based on experience—like she couldn’t teleport to any given shi’ar ship she’s never been on most likely, but any given planet that she could find via scrying? Sure. But a planet with mystical protection she’s never been to? Nope. But then if she somehow gets there and gets a good feel of the place.. she could probably figure out a way around the magical warding, or just “find it” by the warding itself, since the stepping discs themselves are not magical in nature. Her power is very OP, but they’ve at least shown the risks and limitations of her powers before. Reliving the deaths of many people she cared for gave her a hard learned lesson to not mess with time travel too much.

  3. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by G0RM View Post
    IMHO, from the instant she defeated Belasco the first time through now, the hooved Darkchilde is Illyana's true form; the barefoot little girl a mask & power damper she wears to be loved and underestimated. (In "Good Loves, Man Kills” Styker has captured a Hell Lord, but she doesn't even read as a mutant on sensors, just 'anomolous.' But being able to fool Cyttorak and Dormammu in their own domains into believing she is a mortal is an amazing accomplishment.)

    I hold an unusual view of Illyana as an "anti-villain”, having Great Power, but refusing Great Responsibility. She won the throne of Limbo, then immediately abandoned it, a choice that led inevitably to Inferno due to the power vacuum.

    In Limbo there are no good choices, but regarding true outcomes, her obliteration of the Elder Gods was sort of her peak of heroism, finally taking responsibility for saving all Reality from an undefeatable existential threat, like God Doom defeating an infinite number of Beyonders. (Refusing to lead the Cult of the Beyonder, for which He killed the New Mutants, was probably another.)

    In the same way a lot of people think about Superman stories, for me a good Illyana story is about ethics, hard choices, and learning about how friendship is Magik; the power level to dismember a space god is irrelevant, but being blind to ruining a friend's wedding.... Priceless.
    The Darkchilde is not her true form. It's something that exists within her due to her connection to Limbo magic. Her human form is not a disguise or magical illusion. Otherwise the Darkchilde who Belasco could have brought back at any time could have made an illusion that she had a human form, but she specifically wanted her soulsword and amulet to reclaim her human/mutant soul.

  4. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Count me in as someone saying Ilyanna should NOT be considered capable of anything remotely close to intergalactic teleportation (at least not without a significant drawback, like brings out her demonic form etc etc)
    Dr. Strange and Thor can teleport or travel intergalatically with no problem. Why do some old school male fans constantly want female characters to be depowered? Sexism much?

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    It's the old concern about characters being too powerful for interesting stories, like what's the point of the rest of the Justice League with Superman around?

    Granted I'd like to see Thor and Strange somewhat depowered as well and greatly enjoyed when Magik beat Strange and stalemated Thor without trying.

    Darkchylde and Illyana are both her real form. Neither is more real or fake than the other. They are two sides of the same coin.

  6. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It's the old concern about characters being too powerful for interesting stories, like what's the point of the rest of the Justice League with Superman around?

    Granted I'd like to see Thor and Strange somewhat depowered as well and greatly enjoyed when Magik beat Strange and stalemated Thor without trying.

    Darkchylde and Illyana are both her real form. Neither is more real or fake than the other. They are two sides of the same coin.
    Yes, Darkchilde and Illyana are both her real form. Illyana has referred to the Darkchilde as her other self, her darker side.

    Oh, and most male fans don't want male characters depowered. The issue is Magik can defeat most MALE superheroes without even trying.

    That's the nature of her character though, and it really cannot be changed. It's the entire point of her character that she is very powerful, mysterious, and dangerous. But she is good as well.

  7. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Dr. Strange and Thor can teleport or travel intergalatically with no problem. Why do some old school male fans constantly want female characters to be depowered? Sexism much?
    What...

    Dr Strange and Thor are not in the X-Lore

    X-Lore tends to be more pseudo-scientific , "mutation" is a standardized "explanation" for the phenomena.

    I just want things to make sense and not break stories totally which Magik being that way does. Again, there is already a mutant who can do this (but CANNOT teleport short distances and also CANNOT do the other things Magik can do) her name is Lila Cheney.

    In general you want to keep "power levels" within boundaries regardless of gender. "Tradeoffs" for occasional huge bursts is fine, but 99.9% of Magik's canon history refutes the "intergalactic teleporter" claim. At least refutes it as a routine or casual activity for her. Which makes her a more interesting and less broken character.

    Compare to David Haller (Legion) or Nate Grey. They are male mutants with absurd powersets but *both have been limited in various ways* to counter that. It's not sexism... the most famous male mutants are actually rather "weak" in terms of their mutations (Cyclops and Wolverine, throw in Gambit as well if you want). Does anyone doubt any number of female mutants would win versus them? Of course they would, and easily. So no, that's not it at all and it's weird you would go there.

    She can be very appealing largely due to the way she is part demon part mutant and the fact she had no childhood etc etc. Her powerset is already ridiculously OP no need to try to stretch it into even more ludicrous extremes.
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 11-17-2019 at 07:03 AM.
    "So many killers... so much screaming... so many dying. I didn't know where to turn, who to help - which sentinel to stop first. And with the accusations of human judgement screaming in my ears... all I could think was that he was right. MAGNETO HAD BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG!"

  8. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    What...

    Dr Strange and Thor are not in the X-Lore

    X-Lore tends to be more pseudo-scientific , "mutation" is a standardized "explanation" for the phenomena.

    I just want things to make sense and not break stories totally which Magik being that way does. Again, there is already a mutant who can do this (but CANNOT teleport short distances and also CANNOT do the other things Magik can do) her name is Lila Cheney.

    In general you want to keep "power levels" within boundaries regardless of gender. "Tradeoffs" for occasional huge bursts is fine, but 99.9% of Magik's canon history refutes the "intergalactic teleporter" claim. At least refutes it as a routine or casual activity for her. Which makes her a more interesting and less broken character.

    Compare to David Haller (Legion) or Nate Grey. They are male mutants with absurd powersets but *both have been limited in various ways* to counter that. It's not sexism... the most famous male mutants are actually rather "weak" in terms of their mutations (Cyclops and Wolverine, throw in Gambit as well if you want). Does anyone doubt any number of female mutants would win versus them? Of course they would, and easily. So no, that's not it at all and it's weird you would go there.

    She can be very appealing largely due to the way she is part demon part mutant and the fact she had no childhood etc etc. Her powerset is already ridiculously OP no need to try to stretch it into even more ludicrous extremes.
    X-Men is a part of the overall Marvel Universe, and they do from time to time interact with non X-Men characters.

    But even within the X-Universe, Magik can easily (and has killed Sabretooth) with her soulsword alone.

    As for Lila Cheney, it's stupid to have a character who can teleport long distances but cannot teleport short distances.

    And it's not weird that I would go there. It's a sore thumb for some male fans than a female character like Magik can take down a number of male heroes, and yes sexism plays a huge role in claiming that these female characters are overpowered.

    When male characters, even no matter how powerful, are not routinely called for by certain fans to be depowered.

  9. #999
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Illyana's whole story is about conflict against patriarchal, rape culture, male-centric, training camp BS.

    Occultism doesn't make anything new. Magik makes new stuff. Even herself. She made herself. Or at least that's what she did. She ended the elder gods, if they even exist, and she managed to show them to everybody (regardless of if they're real) and she and Legion (who is the liminal fuzzy haze of real/not-real and multiplicity in-at-oncemet...) did impossible...for no reason anybody would even know.

    But she does. Because she does.

    I'm not very good at evincing with facts what I feel to know to be nearly true and not absolute but does anyone know about how to make eye contact with a cat? You relax your eyes, kinda look into space and hum (not necessarily out loud) and use your periphery to mostly listen...you know?

    I see Magik most clearly by not looking at...(13 ways of looking at a blackbird) when for me, you shouldn't really stare at all.

    Illyana is constantly pushing through the dregs and cinders to deeper depths of darker dark and (the coffee pot is empty even though it isn't, but in fact, it is for her who really hasn't had many coffee shop sit-downs or even her own coffee maker) so not being 'in time' or 'in place' or 'in control' or 'cannon-bound' or explicitly as sexually demonstrative as the discussions about her or even...um, what about somebody who never crosses the threshold of adolescence but has absolutely ended her childhood....where is she...what does that mean?

    Often I feel like Magik's vulnerability is difficult for some fans to accept and appreciate and that's fine with me.

    By vulnerability I do not mean weakness and I do not mean naive and I do not mean innocent and I do not mean wanting...nope...and certainly not susceptible to victimization by a direct or didactic roundabout attack...I mean all that NOT being vulnerable takes and means and requires...all that NOTness defines a state of being...a defiant limbo...a place, a person, a place holder...a gap...NO is such a beautiful word when it refuses to chose a given choice...and also refuses to back away from the answering.

    I often feel like 99% of discussion in forums (polls, lists and rankings) is inherently male.

    Kinda by design.

    I often feel like discussion of power set is really just politics and that debate in the trenches with evincible teeth and claws, s'all BS and all decidedly male, sword touching...

    War is male. Duels. What about to the death...and then even after that...the way Magik fights?

    There are other ways to fight, no wins, no loses...the end and the bit after too.

    I often feel like Magik is female but not in a binary gender way, in a state of being way. Female as in NO. As in generative. As in, not phallic. As in, not for me to decide, or say. As in not in the index.

    This comic book and sci fi fantasy script has a long history of forgetting or head shrinking the word asylum, which really means the act of sanctuary...not the 'treatment' and 'diagnosis' and 'fixing' of a person into a mold (one of the archetypes for instance, one of the hero faces, one in the DSMR)...how about, NO!

    Limbo isn't hell.

    Hell, HELL isn't hell.

    So, yea, No.

    She is the one once labeled and treated as 'hysterical', as 'object', as 'fetish', as 'snowflake', as 'not a snowflake no snowflake in hell', 'the one who keeps getting abducted' as because she's an enigma and doesn't say must be 'so sexy'...and I sometimes really want to say NO. No to all of it and shut up and get out or stay put...I love when Magik ends things. But is still 'there'...right there.

    I love that.
    Last edited by sungila; 11-17-2019 at 03:39 PM.
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
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  10. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    What...

    Dr Strange and Thor are not in the X-Lore

    X-Lore tends to be more pseudo-scientific , "mutation" is a standardized "explanation" for the phenomena.

    I just want things to make sense and not break stories totally which Magik being that way does. Again, there is already a mutant who can do this (but CANNOT teleport short distances and also CANNOT do the other things Magik can do) her name is Lila Cheney.

    In general you want to keep "power levels" within boundaries regardless of gender. "Tradeoffs" for occasional huge bursts is fine, but 99.9% of Magik's canon history refutes the "intergalactic teleporter" claim. At least refutes it as a routine or casual activity for her. Which makes her a more interesting and less broken character.

    Compare to David Haller (Legion) or Nate Grey. They are male mutants with absurd powersets but *both have been limited in various ways* to counter that. It's not sexism... the most famous male mutants are actually rather "weak" in terms of their mutations (Cyclops and Wolverine, throw in Gambit as well if you want). Does anyone doubt any number of female mutants would win versus them? Of course they would, and easily. So no, that's not it at all and it's weird you would go there.

    She can be very appealing largely due to the way she is part demon part mutant and the fact she had no childhood etc etc. Her powerset is already ridiculously OP no need to try to stretch it into even more ludicrous extremes.
    I found a convincing, well-researched essay with lots of visual quotes

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/magik...-lord-1994499/

    that suggests that Magik is absurdly OP because her mutancy manifested not on Earth, but in Limbo, and that makes her not superhuman, but a super-HellLord, capable of battling Magus, the Beyonder, Dormammu, the World Eater, Scythian Algurus, and gnats like Thor and Dr. Strange when they stumble into her Domain.

    However, rather like Warlock & Broo whose mutancy is to be 'the Nice One’, only seconds after becoming the Hell Lord of Limbo, Magik created the 'Little Girl' persona that she wore for more than a year in comics before TNM #14, all to appear powerless, fooling mutant sensors and maybe even herself, but nonetheless creeping out everyone but Kitty and Piotr despite how hard she tried to suppress her presence (I think her Intimidating-Glance was just peeling off the mask to show hints of the Hell Lord beneath.)

    Unlike Magneto who has dedicated himself to rule the world to save mutantkind, Magik has literally made it her life's purpose NOT to conquer the universe, a task that Belasco and the Elder Gods designed her to do, and later the Beyonder attempted to recruit her into. (The thing I love most in Secret Warriors is the final issue in which they play Battleworld Risk, and Illyana keeps passing on her turn because she refuses to take over the world. I kept thinking it would have been funny if every throw of the dice had been 666, no matter what she tried.)

    To me, and as Sungila eloquently reminds us, Illyana's story isn't primarily about curbstomping beings who can to rip apart stars, but about struggling with understanding herself, and trying desperately to bridge the gap between her and others, pursuing the magic of friendship and love (NOT sex, which can be messy & lead to alienation & objectification if inner work hasn't been done first.)

    In the frozen hell of Limbo, Illyana reached deep inside herself, honestly admitting she had been forged as a weapon, not a life-seed, and so effortlessly took Limbo away from a being who was never honest with himself. (More accurately, she had been crafted to be a key to a Gate never to be opened, the Lament Configuration, a living puzzle box that we find so mysterious we've filled hundreds of web pages discussing.)

    But Illyana continued her journey to explore the question of Mark 8:36 "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

    Nerfing her powers to make her like everyone else obscures the question, and hides Illyana from herself, leaving Marvel without a perfect test-case for the dilemma of absolute power corrupting absolutely, and how gentleness might be a pathway to the riddle of exploring the hidden Shadows within. (Illyana & Lockeed / Squirrel Girl & Nancy / Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur would be an interesting meditation on the responsible use of Power & Friendship.)

    Magik usually avoids the question by refusing to use the full extent of her powers, denying the temptation cold-turkey, rather than learning proportionate use (and probably muddling other people's memories of her powers so they don't keep making endless annoying requests for her to go shopping for croissants & dresses in Paris, kill inconvenient spacegods, watch the Lost Episodes of Dr. Who, save Mutantkind from Inhumans etc.)
    Last edited by G0RM; 11-17-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  11. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Dr. Strange and Thor can teleport or travel intergalatically with no problem. Why do some old school male fans constantly want female characters to be depowered? Sexism much?
    Maybe the reason Magik was being placed with restrictions was for plot conveniences. If Magik was able to leave with the New Mutants immediately, the series is over.

  12. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by 244 View Post
    Maybe the reason Magik was being placed with restrictions was for plot conveniences. If Magik was able to leave with the New Mutants immediately, the series is over.
    If a series requires that Logan trips while walking across the lawn, leaving him paraplegic & wheelchair bound, it wasn't worth publishing, even if it has symbolic parallels to classic Xavier that make the author feel 'clever' (Yes, I'm talking about you, Lemire)

    IMHO, the beauty of Stan Lee's great creation was Continuity: a self-consistent universe with predictable, reliable pseudo-physics, history, geography, politics, and believable psychology of the characters & relationships, all closely mirroring the world around us.

    These progressively chronic reboots & author swaps murder what I've loved all these decades.

    I probably sound like a Star Wars or Star Trek purist rejecting current retcons, but Continuity really is what I've loved most about Marvel, and I miss it.

    Fortunately, my headcanon of "Magik Throws Fights" lets me survive even drek like X-Men Gold #24 as a deep plot by Illyana to get herself 'knocked unconscious' on a regular basis, so other people get to feel useful, rather than useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G0RM View Post
    If a series requires that Logan trips while walking across the lawn, leaving him paraplegic & wheelchair bound, it wasn't worth publishing, even if it has symbolic parallels to classic Xavier that make the author feel 'clever' (Yes, I'm talking about you, Lemire)

    IMHO, the beauty of Stan Lee's great creation was Continuity: a self-consistent universe with predictable, reliable pseudo-physics, history, geography, politics, and believable psychology of the characters & relationships, all closely mirroring the world around us.

    These progressively chronic reboots & author swaps murder what I've loved all these decades.

    I probably sound like a Star Wars or Star Trek purist rejecting current retcons, but Continuity really is what I've loved most about Marvel, and I miss it.

    Fortunately, my headcanon of "Magik Throws Fights" lets me survive even drek like X-Men Gold #24 as a deep plot by Illyana to get herself 'knocked unconscious' on a regular basis, so other people get to feel useful, rather than useless.
    It wouldn't be a bad idea. It gives the rest of the characters their moments to shine.

  14. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Dr. Strange and Thor can teleport or travel intergalatically with no problem. Why do some old school male fans constantly want female characters to be depowered? Sexism much?
    What? Does Marvel know that?

    LMAO
    "Cable was right!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    What? Does Marvel know that?

    LMAO
    Yep. Continuity doesn’t matter anymore, although I’m beginning to be more lax about it these days.

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