View Poll Results: Should the LoSH be it's own seperate property or more entwined with Superman?

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  • Yes!

    23 74.19%
  • No!

    8 25.81%
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  1. #31
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I guess what I'm envisioning is more aggressive than that. They're a union with representives and a mission, more than a superhero team. Strength in numbers, and all that jazz.

    When you're in the Legion, it's likely a lifestyle.
    I'm gonna keep it 100 with you: I think the Legion is probably one of if not the best idea for a superhero collective out there specifically because of this. They're allowed to effect real change because of how far in the future they live, and they largely adhere to the simple blueprint of Superman's "get involved with your community" concept. It's a got damn crime that they sit basically in obscurity.

    But, it's also why they're so freakin hard to feed to the general public, and it's why I think they need a shepherd right now. Even when the Legion's actual books are very well written, they interest hardly anyone new, and that's a damn shame given the subject.

    As the great J. Cole once said "the single's only the look to sell these dudes the book. I can only pray that one day you'll read into it" if you catch my drift.
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  2. #32
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I wonder if this question isn't directly connected to another question, "Should Superman have ever been Super-boy?"
    He doesn't need to be, but I think having Kent's Adventure Comics tales as a teenaged Superboy in continuity enriches his history.

  3. #33
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'm gonna keep it 100 with you: I think the Legion is probably one of if not the best idea for a superhero collective out there specifically because of this. They're allowed to effect real change because of how far in the future they live, and they largely adhere to the simple blueprint of Superman's "get involved with your community" concept. It's a got damn crime that they sit basically in obscurity.

    But, it's also why they're so freakin hard to feed to the general public, and it's why I think they need a shepherd right now. Even when the Legion's actual books are very well written, they interest hardly anyone new, and that's a damn shame given the subject.

    As the great J. Cole once said "the single's only the look to sell these dudes the book. I can only pray that one day you'll read into it" if you catch my drift.
    Totally! The Legion can effect real change because their world doesn't have to resemble our world at all. They can take the fight to the tyrants, and actually topple them- for good. Collective is a really great word for it. A labor union for superheroic types. They can live out real world problems through the guise of science fiction and actually find solutions to the problems of inequality, racism, sexism, you name it. Superman is trapped in a constant moment of "lead by example" because we have to relate to the world around him, but the Legion is free from those chains. They can take Superman's ideals and go forth into that dark night, if you will. Punch some landlords right in the mouth, ya know.

    It's really a crime that this isn't done.

    "Long Live the Legion" is this mantra of solidarity. Brotherhood and sisterhood across all borders and boundaries of the flesh. Which of course is why they need to not be such a homogenized line up, like you said. Break the Legion out of the nostalgia for the past that it seems to be spiraling in.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-05-2019 at 06:27 PM.
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  4. #34
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Honestly, that would bug me more than a little bit. I don't see the point in letting another franchise swipe something away that basically the Superman franchise created. Maybe that's childish, but it'd T me off. I'd love for The Flash to expand. Would just rather it happen within the framework of its mythos and things its created, rather than sniping on Superman history.
    I think another franchise would be a tremendous disservice and unless it's Batman, not even helpful. Superman is at least the number 2 at DC.

    It's kind of sad how obvious a tie to Batman seems, with it even teased in Doomsday Clock.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Okay, so this is tough. My intimidate reaction is "yes. Obviously. They have 'directly inspired by Superman' in their back story." As a team made of either alien immigrants or Earthlings of alien heritage that all use their natural talents and abilities to help their neighbors because it's the right thing to do, they perpetuate the basic concept of Superman in stereo. That's kind of hard to overlook especially when one of Superman's nicknames is "man of tomorrow."

    Their history and setting leave them in such a position where they're more than able to function without a callback to Superman. The Legion on a conceptually level takes all of the family, boarding school, teen, and young adult ideas of X-Men at its best and most popular, and it gives us the simple idea of "this is the future as it could be" as opposed to the perpetual depression that X-Men can find itself in (a sentiment I feel would go down quite well today). That on its own is a winner of a concept. No Superman needed.

    However, I've come to the conclusion that times are in fact tough, and the Legion has had a lot of starts and stops, so maybe anchoring them ( more directly) to Superman as a base line isn't the worst idea. Great as they are, they are an overwhelming concept that almost never makes it to the spotlight of the public eye. And even then, the only Legion associated characters really being pushed into the public eye are the ones directly linked to Superman: Brainiac 5 and Mon-El.

    So, yeah, from where I'm standing, and how I feel presently, the touchstone of Superman and his world need to a pretty strong part of the equation. The Legion is a sea of imaginative characters set in a far removed future. That's one of its great strengths and weaknesses. Having Superman as a direct inspiration, leaning into characters heavily associated with Superman gives you and hand railing to hold onto, I feel.
    As usual I agree with Superlad here.

    Clark doesn't have to be a focus. But his influence needs to be felt. And the Legion benefits from strong ties to Clark. He can be the bridge that pulls them into big Events (which increases the Legion's profile and the sense that they actually matter). Kara, Jon, Conner, or even young Clark can be involved in Legion stories to give the team a high profile IP on the cover (though I'd also bring in future versions of a couple other big names too; not many, just enough so people know its still the DCU and its semi-recognizable).

    And the Legion help build up Clark's profile too. If the Legion lives in a bright, shiny, Star Trek style future where humanity really did achieve its potential (yknow, mostly), and they can trace that success directly back to Clark, then that means that Clark really is a big gods damn deal and readers will feel the same way.
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  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But, it's also why they're so freakin hard to feed to the general public, and it's why I think they need a shepherd right now. Even when the Legion's actual books are very well written, they interest hardly anyone new, and that's a damn shame given the subject.
    I think the concept needs completely new optics.

    One of the problems I had back in the day was that this was basically the Teen Titans in space. The technology didn't seem all that more advanced than what Batman or the League had, often seemed a little less impressive than what Clark had in the Fortress, and the nature of the narratives was usually just "kid superheroes....but in space!" which didn't do much for me since we already had Titans and other teen heroes in space a fair amount. And the names just.....its a thousand years in the future and the best names they've got are "Lightning Lad?" The costumes weren't usually any more impressive either. Damn little about the Legion felt futuristic. If the technology was more widespread than it is in the current day, well.....we don't usually see Joe Average in the comics so the fact that his life is better in the 31st century doesn't mean much and is seen even less on the page. The fact that this was a universe built on the actions of today's heroes rarely played into things and the Legion could have existed in some distant corner of the Star Wars universe, or Trek, with barely anything from the current DCU to be seen and nothing different to say that other teen teams weren't saying already. And those other teen teams got to interact with Clark and Diana and the League, and they got involved in the big Event stories.....so why bother with the Legion?

    Granted, I missed the glory days of the Legion. But that's the point; those glory days were so long ago now most of us weren't there for it and have no nostalgic fondness for the property.

    A Star Trek future built by today's heroes should be a stupid easy thing to sell. Between current events, Millennials, the swift rise of technology, the Legion should be one of the easiest concepts to publish. But its gotta look and feel like the DCU's future, not just a random Space Sector in the present day.

    I'd push the property hard into a sci-fi mentality, and take more influence from Trek and post modern cyberpunk than the JLA. Throw in a Superman, a Flash, maybe have Diana still alive and ruling Themsyrica......a few odds and ends so the Legion clearly is part of the DCU, and explore it through the lens of a genre you don't usually see on the spinner racks. Time travel can get them involved in the big Events and you just might manage to make the Legion matter again.
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  7. #37
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Superman's legacy is felt far into the farthest flung future. The Green Lantern Corps still is around, but refocusing a bit. There's an Atlantis in some capacity (Aquaman represent!) I dont want much more overlap though.

    I always loved the vagueness of what happened to Superman. There never should be a definitive answer. Hell, he just might be still at large!

    The best Legion stories are the ones that push forward. Lots of world building and character studies, less events and Batman crossovers.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-05-2019 at 08:01 PM.
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  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I always loved the vagueness of what happened to Superman. There never should be a definitive answer. Hell, he just might be still at large!
    Totally agreed.

    Personally, in my own head canon Superman eventually leaves earth for parts unknown and becomes an intergalactic folk story. People all across the universe will tell tall tales about being saved by a man in a red cape. He doesn't stick around, he just helps out and takes off. Is it Superman? Is it a descendant? Is it the same person, a group, or unconnected individuals who all heard the same stories about earth's past? No one knows, but the shared myth of the Super-Man is (again, in my own head) one of the things that helps bring the United Planets together. That shared story helps them see (and helps them remember) that there is more that connects us than separates us (to steal a line from Black Panther, )
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  9. #39
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    It's far enough in the future that Superman's Clark Kent ID is common knowledge, so you can have The character use their own name rather than Superxxxx. If we are dealing with Clark just have him wearing a Legion uniform using the "S-crest" as an identifier and add in that old "post-hypnotic forgetting of personal future details". If it's Jon, Kon or Kara let them use their regular uniforms with the codename being optional.

    And I've stated before that I'd love to see the Legion established as a massive organization. There would be an Earth-based team with maybe Invisible Kid, Colossal Boy, and Sun Boy as the familiar faces among a larger team. But there could also be Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl stationed near Winath as part of a different "unit" while Brainy, Mon-El and Cosmic Boy might be part of a team based near the edge of UP space on a mobile base.

    The writer could pick the heroes he wanted allowing for an espionage adventure starring Cham, Dawnstar, Sensor Girl, and Night Girl one arc, a hostage situation on Rimbor with Violet, Ultra Boy, Ferro Lad and some new faces the next arc, and a massive multifront conflict with Khunds over a dozen issues after that. Members could rotate through if you wanted to focus on Earth or if you wanted to follow say Star Boy for a year as he is assigned to different teams based on his usefulness for specific missions.

    You could even ditch the old "duplicate powers" rule by changing it so people with similar powers tend to be spread over multiple teams. So having both Jacques and Lyle both on the Earth team makes less sense than having someone with invisibility based on Earth and another based on Colu (or Winath or Webber's World …). And outside of a battle with Mordru or a Khund army is there really a need for Mon and Jo to be in the same place (let alone the same place as Clark, Kara, Ferro Lad, Jon, Laurel, Kent Shakespeare, …) This would let us see variety within some races and/or approaches to a power (a Triplicate Lad with the same base powers but radically different outlook than Luornu, a Coluan whose scientific specialties were more biological than technological, a Durlan who specialized in adapting different body types simultaneously like a scorpion stinger tail with eagle wings and tentacles all at once …).

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I always loved the vagueness of what happened to Superman. There never should be a definitive answer. Hell, he just might be still at large!

    .
    That's a actually quite profound and interesting, now that I think about it. This goes against the gist of your post, but this got me thinking. There should be more Legion stories dedicated to showcasing modern day so called "immortal" characters such as Superman or Phantom Stranger living in the 30/31st century.

  11. #41
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    One of the problems I had back in the day was that this was basically the Teen Titans in space. The technology didn't seem all that more advanced than what Batman or the League had, often seemed a little less impressive than what Clark had in the Fortress, and the nature of the narratives was usually just "kid superheroes....but in space!" which didn't do much for me since we already had Titans and other teen heroes in space a fair amount. And the names just.....its a thousand years in the future and the best names they've got are "Lightning Lad?" The costumes weren't usually any more impressive either. Damn little about the Legion felt futuristic. If the technology was more widespread than it is in the current day, well.....we don't usually see Joe Average in the comics so the fact that his life is better in the 31st century doesn't mean much and is seen even less on the page. The fact that this was a universe built on the actions of today's heroes rarely played into things and the Legion could have existed in some distant corner of the Star Wars universe, or Trek, with barely anything from the current DCU to be seen and nothing different to say that other teen teams weren't saying already. And those other teen teams got to interact with Clark and Diana and the League, and they got involved in the big Event stories.....so why bother with the Legion?

    Granted, I missed the glory days of the Legion.
    Without assuming which days you mean, it's still an outline of some of the real difficulty with the Legion. They're so far removed from us that earth doesn't even seem like the center of each and everything that matters. That sort of thing can overwhelm readers to some degree, but many of the most well known LoSH stories came at a time when DC assumed we'd have flying cars in 2001. Maybe somehow, fictional universe considered, it doesn't seem like enough?

    I think bringing back the Legion should absolutely include a Legion Lost title as a second book, and that one should tie to Superman since it would need a present day anchor. It makes selling the future more effective when you have some of them here to play out the contrast.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I love the idea that Superman roams the Cosmos to places where no one knows his name. Sometime he acts like a hero, sometimes he does experiments, sometimes he paints a picture. I imagine him like Destruction from Neil Gaiman's Sandman. The best Legion story of the last few years starred Franklin Richards and the Future Foundation. Jonathan Hickman's Franklin Richards reminds me of silver age Superboy and the Legion. Jeff Lemire also has a great one going with his Quantum Age series. To my mind Superman is to the Legion what Reed Richards is to the Fantastic Four. You could have a fantastic four without him but you could replace any of them I guess.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    many of the most well known LoSH stories came at a time when DC assumed we'd have flying cars in 2001. Maybe somehow, fictional universe considered, it doesn't seem like enough?
    I think so. Like I said, Im no Legion expert. I love the Legion conceptually and there's been a few stories I've really enjoyed but for the most part I've never really enjoyed their book/s. But their future doesn't seem very futuristic. And yeah, part of that is the fact that today's technology is so different from what it was decades ago; infinitely more advanced than expected in some ways, far less so in others.

    I think many aspects of the Legion are simply too close to the present day to really sell the idea that they're in the far future. And I know the time between now and then is full of Great Disasters and Crisis Events that have held technology's advancement back but when the end result is "Teen Titans meets GLC" and lacks a serious, viable element of "this is the future of DC" it makes the whole IP feel a little weaker, I think.

    I think bringing back the Legion should absolutely include a Legion Lost title as a second book, and that one should tie to Superman since it would need a present day anchor. It makes selling the future more effective when you have some of them here to play out the contrast.
    I dunno. I think the Legion needs clear ties to the present day but a team stuck in the present sort of defeats the idea of "heroes in the future" doesn't it? I'd be fine with a Legionnaire or three in the present showing up in various books (Saturn Girl with the Titans? Sure), I'd be fine with storylines that send them to the present (or sends "our" heroes to the future) and that sort of crossover should be relatively common. But a whole title with a whole squad stuck here full time? Maybe it's what the franchise needs but I can't say I'd be terribly interested in it myself.
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  14. #44
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    The thing that distinguishes the Legion from the Titans or the Justice League is the size of the Legion. I guess they finally imposed a limit of 25 members on the LSH and eventually the JLA and Titans expanded their ranks and you could argue they had almost as many members. But the Legion was about a whole universe of characters--some of them members but many more others simply part of that great big universe.

    I'm on the fence with how much Superman should interact with the LSH, because too much limits the Legion as they have to fit with his present continuity. The far future angle allows writers to build a whole universe that only has tenuous connections to the presentday one. My personal desire is that the Legion keeps its entire history sofar and we get new generations of members. The established characters are the old guard now--and may have had adventures with Superboy.

    As far as technology goes, I think it's pointless to try and make the future look futuristic. Those efforts always look silly later on. I prefer a retro steampunk approach to the future. So if the LSH want to dress like they're from the 1950s, I'm fine with that because I can envision the Legion as having an obsession with ancient 20th century fashion and culture. But I like that each planet has its own aesthetic. So Orando has a medieval Game of Thrones type look. Durla is a hellscape. Naltor is the gleaming, future planet--with tall spires, it looks like Dubai.

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