Top Ten Times Marvel Destroyed It's Own History: Spider-Man Rankings

[Miles To Go]

9 - The Grey Goblin
Almost everyone knows the story of Spider-Man and Gwen Stacy. Gwen, the girlfriend of Spider-Man’s alter ego Peter Park, was kidnapped by the Green Goblin to threaten Spidey. Norman Osborn took Gwen to the George Washington Bridge, holding her hostage in a confrontation that resulted in her death.

And until the early 00s, that was Gwen’s story – another casualty of Spider-Man’s superhero career. That is, until writer J. Michael Strazcynski went back in time and revealed that Gwen had carried on a sexual relationship with Osborn before her death, even resulting the birth of twin babies who were secretly raised in Europe, where they rapidly aged to adulthood thanks to Osborn’s enhanced genetics.

Eventually the pair, Sarah and Gabriel, returned to the U.S. to seek Peter Parker, who Osborn told them was their father, with Gabriel eventually becoming the villainous Grey Goblin.

Unlike many of the entries on this list, while definitely a retcon, this story has almost never been referenced since, with most fans and writers preferring to leave this secret history a secret.

4 - Clone Saga
Peter Parker’s life has been fraught with lies, secrets, and hidden truths – and one of the biggest is the true story of his clone.

Back in the 70s, Professor Miles Warren, one of Peter’s college teachers, became obsessed with cloning Spider-Man, even succeeding in pitting his clone against Peter Parker in a seeming fight to the death, leaving Peter victorious and the clone having died in the fight.

But the infamous 90s “Clone Saga” twisted the story – it supposed that the Peter Parker whose adventures fans followed since the original clone fight was in fact the clone, the genuine article seemingly having died with the clone taking his place. The original Peter, now calling himself Ben Reilly, returned with the plan to take his rightful place as Spider-Man.

From here, things just get more and more complicated, with multiple clones, threads, twists, turns, and revelations coming to the surface over the ever-expanding (and seemingly unending) Clone Saga.

In the end, the one true Peter Parker won out, with the guy we all knew being vindicated as the genuine article when Ben Reilly’s body disintegrated.

As for Miles Warren, he’s returned time and again as the cloning-obsessed Jackal, even cloning almost everyone from Peter’s life in 2016’s Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy- which permanently returned both Doctor Octopus and Ben Reilly to life.

1 - One More Day
2007’s One More Day is likely one of the first examples many fans will call to mind when thinking of Marvel “destroying” its universe – the controversial story still draws ire from longtime Spider-Man fans for its handling of the end of Peter Parker’s relationship to Mary Jane.

Owing partially to the perception that Spider-Man’s stories had become limited by his marriage with Mary Jane, Marvel Comics tapped writer J. Michael Straczynski to pen a story in which Peter and Mary Jane trade their marriage to Mephisto to save the life of Aunt May. As a result, Marvel’s timeline was altered so that Peter and MJ were not only no longer married, their marriage never happened.

The ripple effects of the erasure of their marriage were widespread – Peter Parker’s true identity was made secret again, Harry Osborn was brought back to life, and numerous other changes cropped up for years following the tale.

Hardcore Pete/MJ fans who have held out hope for a retcon of the retcon are currently getting their wish (partially) as the most recent volume of Amazing Spider-Man has brought the pair back together.

https://www.newsarama.com/43308-10-t...n-history.html

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Until the Clone Saga, Spider-Man was the realistic corner of the Marvel Universe. Dead characters stayed dead, status-quo changes stuck, characters grew and progressed, and no retcons that said that the last so-and-so issues or the character you were reading wasn't the character you were reading.

Those were the norms of Spider-Man.

The Clone Saga destroyed that forever with its piece-of-trash story that should never have been thought up, never have been approved, and so on. The entire attempt to salvage that mess which JMS did, was undone forever by OMD.

One More Day somehow managed to violate even more norms than the Clone Saga. Let me explain:

1) Spider-Man has this strong serialized continuity. What that means is there are never any long gaps between stories. Every writer until BND was working on a character and status-quo handed down by the one that came before. Lee-Ditko gave Lee-Romita the college Peter Parker, the Goblin Mystery, Ms. Watson's niece. Lee-Romita gave Conway Harry the Drug Addict, the Gwen/Peter romance, and Norman Osborn as the Goblin...even the Clone Saga built on Michelinie's run, and Mackie/Byrne built off the Clone Saga, and JMS built of Mackie.

2) BND starts with a huge gap and new status-quo that needed flashbacks in later issues to plug in what happened. None of the plots and stuff from JMS' run were followed or alluded to.

What that means is that in terms of the serialized character who originated from Amazing Fantasy #15...BND has no serialized claims to that character. It's basically a Crisis Reboot. It's not writing the character from Lee-Ditko's origins. That character was killed in OMD. The entire character and status-quo was created out of whole cloth by a writer's room, and Dan Slott's extended run is basically all about creating the illusion of cohesiveness and continuity when there is none...that's one of the reasons why he was allowed to stay as long as he did.

[Celgress]

I never consider how the precedent set by the Clone Saga could have opened the door for OMD *shudders*. You make an interesting argument there Revolutionary_Jack.

[WebLurker]

Wasn't the Clone Saga made to cash in on the hype of the big "Death of Superman" story while OMD more of "get back to basics" retcon? Either way, I kinda think we would've gotten OMD or something like it irregardless of if the '90s Clone Saga had been a thing; they seem like different kinds of stories with different objectives.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Wasn't the Clone Saga made to cash in on the hype of the big "Death of Superman" story while OMD more of "get back to basics" retcon? Either way, I kinda think we would've gotten OMD or something like it irregardless of if the '90s Clone Saga had been a thing; they seem like different kinds of stories with different objectives.

One More Day...was inspired by a rejected concept by Mark Millar, Grant Morrison, Mark Waid for a Superman Reboot proposal called Superman 2000. When that was rejected all of them jumped ship to Marvel and Mark Waid ended up consulting Quesada for the OMD project and then wrote in the BND era. So it was inspired by Superman's leavings anyway.

The Clone Saga set a precedent for OMD. Many of the behind-the-scenes types such as Tom Breevoort carried over. And the narrative about the Clone Saga around the 2000 became, good idea badly executed rather than something that shouldn't be done.

The big difference is that the Clone Saga happened in a period of instability and multiple teams and so on...whereas Quesada only got OMD done when he had support backing and security in place.

[Huntsman Spider]

Wasn't the Clone Saga made to cash in on the hype of the big "Death of Superman" story while OMD more of "get back to basics" retcon? Either way, I kinda think we would've gotten OMD or something like it irregardless of if the '90s Clone Saga had been a thing; they seem like different kinds of stories with different objectives.

The Clone Saga was also intended to get Spider-Man "back to basics," i.e. not married. The difference is that they mixed in elements of Death of Superman (and Knightfall) from DC to essentially invalidate and delegitimize the married Spider-Man by saying "that's not the real Peter Parker, the real Peter Parker is still swinging single." Another distinction was that Death of Superman and Knightfall were ultimately done to show why Superman and Batman were so iconic as they were and didn't need to be changed to cash in on the 90s comics' "darker and edgier" trend. On the other hand, the Clone Saga was saying that Spider-Man had to change, and had to change back to what he used to be, not just before ill-advised storylines pushed him in a darker direction, but also before he got married. That was ultimately the crux of the whole thing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The Clone Saga was also intended to get Spider-Man "back to basics," i.e. not married. The difference is that they mixed in elements of Death of Superman (and Knightfall) from DC to essentially invalidate and delegitimize the married Spider-Man by saying "that's not the real Peter Parker, the real Peter Parker is still swinging single." Another distinction was that Death of Superman and Knightfall were ultimately done to show why Superman and Batman were so iconic as they were and didn't need to be changed to cash in on the 90s comics' "darker and edgier" trend. On the other hand, the Clone Saga was saying that Spider-Man had to change, and had to change back to what he used to be, not just before ill-advised storylines pushed him in a darker direction, but also before he got married. That was ultimately the crux of the whole thing.

In the case of DC there was also the fact this was basically just less than ten years after the Crisis Reboot. There were issues and complaints about "Not muh Superman, Muh Superman's Silver Age" and so on. And also not my Batman and so on. Removing Superman and Batman for an extended period from their own stories was basically a way to put two birds in one stone. On one hand new fans who came in with this Batman and Superman hadn't yet had the comfort and familiarity and long association to grow used to these characters...while fence-sitters and so on can say, "not my Superman, death doesn't count". Doing it the way they did manage to make everyone care and accept the new status-quo.

That's repeated with Superior Spider-Man. Post BND Status-Quo was controversial and contentious and Slott earned acclaim for, seemingly reversing the status quo with Spider-Island which many saw as teasing Peter and MJ's reunion and so on. Slott was in a bind that the only way to get people to accept was going back which he couldn't do...so the option was get Post-BND Peter to lose in the most humiliating and degrading way...have him off for a year and a half (longer than Clark and Bruce's absence from their books) and then bring Peter back and suddenly everyone will accept Post-BND Peter as the real one.

It's a pretty elegant con and stunt, and something that works when you are setting in and need a way to consolidate a new continuity and status-quo for longer than a single fad.

[Huntsman Spider]

In the case of DC there was also the fact this was basically just less than ten years after the Crisis Reboot. There were issues and complaints about "Not muh Superman, Muh Superman's Silver Age" and so on. And also not my Batman and so on. Removing Superman and Batman for an extended period from their own stories was basically a way to put two birds in one stone. On one hand new fans who came in with this Batman and Superman hadn't yet had the comfort and familiarity and long association to grow used to these characters...while fence-sitters and so on can say, "not my Superman, death doesn't count". Doing it the way they did manage to make everyone care and accept the new status-quo.

That's repeated with Superior Spider-Man. Post BND Status-Quo was controversial and contentious and Slott earned acclaim for, seemingly reversing the status quo with Spider-Island which many saw as teasing Peter and MJ's reunion and so on. Slott was in a bind that the only way to get people to accept was going back which he couldn't do...so the option was get Post-BND Peter to lose in the most humiliating and degrading way...have him off for a year and a half (longer than Clark and Bruce's absence from their books) and then bring Peter back and suddenly everyone will accept Post-BND Peter as the real one.

It's a pretty elegant con and stunt, and something that works when you are setting in and need a way to consolidate a new continuity and status-quo for longer than a single fad.

Hmm, yeah, Superior Spider-Man was Spider-Man's Knightfall or Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen/Return of Superman, come to think of it, and Dan Slott was writing Batman comics (based on The Animated Series) back in the 90s, if I recall right.

[Mister Mets]

I never consider how the precedent set by the Clone Saga could have opened the door for OMD *shudders*. You make an interesting argument there Revolutionary_Jack.

I wonder about this. It might have been inevitable, since until the marriage there hadn't been any changes to continuity that would require a retcon to reverse.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wonder about this. It might have been inevitable, since until the marriage there hadn't been any changes to continuity that would require a retcon to reverse.

Marv Wolfman believed Peter should never have left high school during his run...and that was well before the wedding. Stan Lee commissioned the story that became the first clone saga as a possible backdoor for Gwen's return...(had the Peter/MJ romance not been popular, that would have been it, Gwen would have come back right away). Fact is there had always been changes in Spider-Man before then and people didn't like those changes or saw it was best. The marriage, and the way it happened and so on polarized writers and editors, and radicalized those convictions.

There's also the fact that retcons and ideas like that in Marvel and DC became more common in other comics and continuities. X-Men undid the Dark Phoenix Saga and brought Jean Grey alive. Jean Grey's death was a "Gwen Stacy moment" in X-Men continuity. But not even ten years away, they retconned and undid it. They said that the Phoenix in that story wasn't Jean Grey. It was Kurt Buseik who came up with that. He was a fan who didn't like the Dark Phoenix and felt it ruined the story (as this fan letter he wrote confirmed: https://imgur.com/xrWq7Of). Buseik is another of those fanatics who believe Peter should never have left high school. So you had bad practices coming in as Silver Age nostalgics and so on became set and hardened against changes, vampirically sucking at the new in favor of the old.

After seeing COIE and the Post-Crisis Superman, the Death of Superman and so on, and Jean Grey's resurrection, that may well have led Spider-Man writers to go, if them, why not us. But Spider-Man did hold out for a fair bit longer than others.

[gregpersons]

Marv Wolfman believed Peter should never have left high school during his run...and that was well before the wedding. Stan Lee commissioned the story that became the first clone saga as a possible backdoor for Gwen's return...(had the Peter/MJ romance not been popular, that would have been it, Gwen would have come back right away). Fact is there had always been changes in Spider-Man before then and people didn't like those changes or saw it was best. The marriage, and the way it happened and so on polarized writers and editors, and radicalized those convictions.

There's also the fact that retcons and ideas like that in Marvel and DC became more common in other comics and continuities. X-Men undid the Dark Phoenix Saga and brought Jean Grey alive. Jean Grey's death was a "Gwen Stacy moment" in X-Men continuity. But not even ten years away, they retconned and undid it. They said that the Phoenix in that story wasn't Jean Grey. It was Kurt Buseik who came up with that. He was a fan who didn't like the Dark Phoenix and felt it ruined the story (as this fan letter he wrote confirmed: https://imgur.com/xrWq7Of). Buseik is another of those fanatics who believe Peter should never have left high school. So you had bad practices coming in as Silver Age nostalgics and so on became set and hardened against changes, vampirically sucking at the new in favor of the old.

After seeing COIE and the Post-Crisis Superman, the Death of Superman and so on, and Jean Grey's resurrection, that may well have led Spider-Man writers to go, if them, why not us. But Spider-Man did hold out for a fair bit longer than others.

That Busiek letter... wow.

Do you know of any resources I could check out — to read or listen— to learn more about Marvel's inner decision making processes? This is fascinating.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That Busiek letter... wow.

Do you know of any resources I could check out — to read or listen— to learn more about Marvel's inner decision making processes? This is fascinating.

Well there's no one-stop place to do it unfortunately. The problem is that there are two eras: Pre and Post-Internet. Pre-Internet everything was hearsay, oral history, rumors and so on. Nobody had access to multiple comics at the same time like we do today online. Unfortunately a lot of our ideas and recieved wisdom is shaped by the Pre-Internet era. Also the subjective emotional and human element. People who were in a period have a hard time letting go of the mentalities of that time and place and look at things critically. So some larger patterns become apparent to us that maybe weren't then.

For Spider-Man, I recommend stuff like
1) Superior Spider-Talk -- by Mark Ginocchio and Dan Gvozden where their interview podcasts talk to a number of artists, writers and others from multiple periods. Real insightful stuff and nuggets and so on. The theme song sucks however...so skip that.

2) http://podbay.fm/show/384366241 -- Spider-Man Crawlspace is really daunting and immense. Stuff I haven't gone through yet. But really good stuff.

Generally as long as you know a few home truths you will be able to navigate some information:
1) Steve Ditko is a guy who was quiet and reclusive. So that allows a lot of people to put words in his mouth that he is not sourced to have said. Stuff like Ditko having issues with Norman being the Goblin are utterly false, demonstrably not the case, and in this case refuted by him. The other one is that Ditko had issues with Peter leaving high school and going to college. No one has ever sourced that...and that comes from industry rumor and gossip.

2) Stan Lee likes to be a consensual figure. That is to say he's a guy who wants every part of Spider-Man's fandom to claim him so everyone does. That means that a lot of people can find Stan Lee quotes in support of their viewpoint and hobby-horse.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

how is sins past not #1

[Revolutionary_Jack]

how is sins past not #1

Water under the bridge...OMD overshadowed that. And Sins' Past while a character assassination of Gwen Stacy and so on, did not actually ruin the other parts of Spider-Man's publication history and so on. All it ruined was those posthumous Gwenstalgia bridge-marking and mourning scenes...which is no big loss in my opinion. Also basically a 4 issues series with one follow-up in the second series before people got over it.

The Clone Saga on the other hand was a black hole that hijacked two real-time years and span a huge volume of material, the vast majority of which proved worthless and unusable. OMD erased 20 real-time years, drastically rewrote the characters, made Spider-Man completely demoralizing going forward, and basically ended up as Erik Larsen pointed out, killing the illusion of change, by saying there's never going to be change. So that's a story so bad that it ruined all Spider-Man stories after that.

[Scott Taylor]

All three of those stories were done, arguably, as a result of Jim Shooter pissing all of Marvel off with his ways. Marvel as we know it today is just a giant middle finger to Jim Shooter. You might be able to say that about the whole comics industry actually.

But I as a fan loved the Shooter era and miss it.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...rvel-business/