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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
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    I have a question about the Dark Phoenix Saga. In his blog, Jim Shooter claimed (http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/origin...nix-saga.html/) that the idea that eventually became the Dark Phoenix Saga was about a hero who went bad and stayed bad and Shooter says he was okay with Jean living so long as she was permanently a villain and not redeemed. Would that have been a direction you preferred they go in?

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I have a question about the Dark Phoenix Saga. In his blog, Jim Shooter claimed (http://jimshooter.com/2011/06/origin...nix-saga.html/) that the idea that eventually became the Dark Phoenix Saga was about a hero who went bad and stayed bad and Shooter says he was okay with Jean living so long as she was permanently a villain and not redeemed. Would that have been a direction you preferred they go in?
    I wouldn't be terribly fond of that, either. I like Jean.

    Jim seemed to want to make long-running characters into villains, somehow -- there were attempts to do it with Yellowjacket and Quicksilver, to name a couple of others -- and it's certainly something that's dramatic and would get a lot of buzz and attention, but there's an inherent problem with the idea, which is that both readers and creators will have a lot of affection for most long-running heroic characters of any real stature.

    So people will want the heel-turn "fixed." And creators will look for ways to do it.

    And the result was that Jean kinda got broken as a character, and Yellowjacket definitely got broken as a character. Quicksilver not so much, because he didn't do anything all that unforgivable, and he'd always been kind of a high-handed jerk, so it just came off like an extreme episode of jerkiness.

    It would probably be easier to take a long-running minor character and have them become a villain, because then they'd have this history and emotional relationship with the heroes, but the audience wouldn't necessarily reject the change, angry you're trying to shock them by messing with their goodwill for the character. I think they revealed that the Golden Age Angel became some kind of villainous nut, but nobody much alive had any real affection for the character, so nobody was terribly annoyed by it.

    It's one thing when heroic screen icon Henry Fonda plays a villain in a spaghetti Western, and it's shocking because it's Henry Fonda, but it's still a new character. It's not the same as having George Bailey from IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE or Dorothy Gale from THE WIZARD OF OZ turn out to be serial killers. The audience would reject that, because they like the characters and don't want them turned into villains, regardless of the fact that an editor might see cool story possibilities in it.

    It's much easier to have an established villain turn heroic -- then you're trying to make the audience sympathize with someone who's seeking redemption, rather than trying to take a character they have warm, positive feelings for and make them morally repugnant.

    I'm sure there's a way to pull off the kind of twist Jim wanted, but I think it would have to involve a workaround for the problem of the audience simply rejecting the story because they don't want to follow the creators and characters down that particular path.

    As an aside: If Chris and John had sent Jean off to Marvel's version of Takron-Galtos, I would figure that eventually she would be brought back to Earth and "cured," because her Dark Phoenix episodes would be treated as a form of possession or insanity, and very few characters would refuse to sit at the dinner table with her any more than they do that with the Scarlet Witch, who has done awful things over the years but it's always excused as insanity. If Jim prevented this from happening, there'd have been a few adventures involving breakouts and kidnappings and Phoenix flare-ups and such, and then Jean would be "cured" the minute Jim left the company. That would have been fairly simple and straightforward, but it wouldn't have been a great ending to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

    It could work -- they do the trial by combat and the X-Men actually _win_ it this time, and by Shi'Ar law Jean must be allowed to go free, except Jean realizes she's just too dangerous and can't trust herself to be in control, so she kisses Scott goodbye and tells Lilandra to execute her. Only Lil, moved by Jean's heroic sacrifice, sends her to Takron-Galtos instead, and promises the X-Men they'll bring in the finest psionic in the Empire to try to find a way to separate the Jean they knew from the Dark Phoenix she became, and bla bla bla.

    It's not as powerful an ending, but it could be done very affectingly.

    So if it had been me, I'd have gone for something like that, but it wasn't me and Chris and John didn't want to go that route. Of course, if it had been me I wouldn't have had Jean commit genocide in the first place, so go figure.

    But I wouldn't want Jean to be a permanent villain, and she wouldn't have, in the long run.

    And she was called Phoenix, as Jim notes. So maybe playing with rebirths in flames in some other way than "Just put her back again" would have been fun. She undergoes personality changes or power changes, or something. She gets reborn each time with no memory, and has to learn how to be Jean again, which would not necessarily involve X-Men membership or loving Scott.

    There's probably lots of different opportunities, but they were under the gun and had to come up with something fast. And they did what they did and it became a well-loved story, so go figure.

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  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    It's one thing when heroic screen icon Henry Fonda plays a villain in a spaghetti Western, and it's shocking because it's Henry Fonda, but it's still a new character. It's not the same as having George Bailey from IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE or Dorothy Gale from THE WIZARD OF OZ turn out to be serial killers. The audience would reject that, because they like the characters and don't want them turned into villains, regardless of the fact that an editor might see cool story possibilities in it.
    That reminds me of this comic. Alan Moore and Kevin O'Neill have this ongoing series called Cinema Purgatorio. It's an anthology comic but the title series and first one is this black-and-white series where Moore riffs on parts of movie history and his usual stuff. His most recent comic dealt with George Reeves and his TV Show and it's got a call back to his Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorow show and it might be the last time he ever touches on Superman. Anyway, he did a short comic on It's A Wonderful Life in Issue #12 that portrayed George Bailey in a very sardonic and critical way but this is Moore so it's done in a certain Kurtzman. Though of course Moore didn't show George Bailey as a serial killer at all...but it's certainly a darker take.

    Thank you for your kind response to that. How do you feel about Dark Phoenix Saga being considered a classic story and greatest X-Men story? I've had issues because in so far that the X-Men are this metaphor for the struggling and the oppressed, the Dark Phoenix and the entire Phoenix going into a cosmic direction feels at odds with the core of the stories. And what according to you are the great X-Men stories...and since this is a Spider-Man message board (albeit the topic is Marvel wide), great Spider-Man stories too?

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How do you feel about Dark Phoenix Saga being considered a classic story and greatest X-Men story?
    Seems like a decent choice -- I didn't enjoy it much when I was a teenager, but even then I admired most of the craft, and it certainly had an impact.

    And what according to you are the great X-Men stories...and since this is a Spider-Man message board (albeit the topic is Marvel wide), great Spider-Man stories too?
    Well, for Spider-Man, the Master Planner Saga in #31-33 is hands down the best the series got or probably ever will get, I think.

    For the X-Men, I don't know. I liked it enormously for a while, but it wasn't because of standout stories, but because I found the characters amiable and engaging, and I liked spending time with them. So the story with Bobby's 18th birthday is a favorite for the opening third or so, but the Juggernaut story it turns into isn't "greatest story" material. Same for a bunch of others.

    For me, X-Men, both original and new, is more about the feel of the book than about specific stories. I like the character interactions and the tone of the storytelling. And after a certain point, I don't really know what's going on, since I stopped reading X-MEN regularly with #138, and while I caught up on the series at times, I think once you get to #200, I'm missing big chunks of it that I've never read, so I just kinda dipped into and out of it here and there, and don't have a sense of its overall growth.
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  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    Well, for Spider-Man, the Master Planner Saga in #31-33 is hands down the best the series got or probably ever will get, I think.
    I have another general Marvel wide question related to that, how would Spider-Man compared to other Marvel titles and runs in terms of evolution and story advancement? Right now with the movies, Black Panther made more money at the bank than the teenage Spider-Man did and it certainly seems that in terms of comics and great creative runs, non-Spider-Man titles seem to have had better development and advancement than Spider-Man has.

    When Spider-Man started, in Avengers #3, Iron Man was the junior superhero who got brushed off by him, FF, and X-Men, but later on he looks at Iron Man as a father figure and so on. And part of a frustration some fans have with Peter's infantilization is that he becomes this Benjamin Button figure where other Marvel characters grow and develop while he gets younger and younger all the time. And the more integrated Shared Universe seems to diminish him.

    Do you feel that Spider-Man is ultimately not a transcendent character like Superman and Batman are? Superman and Batman can exist and flourish as teenagers, adult men, and even older men, they can be pre-teens, single and dating, and married and fathers. All those versions are still Superman and Batman But Spider-Man, at least in the opinion of others, doesn't have that potential...and even in the Marvel Universe, has little compared to Black Panther, Reed Richards, Thing, and Iron Man.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I have another general Marvel wide question related to that, how would Spider-Man compared to other Marvel titles and runs in terms of evolution and story advancement?
    I don't really know what that means. But I believe in treating different characters differently, to make the individual books interesting rather than to have everything treated the same way, as if they're interchangeable.

    When Spider-Man started, in Avengers #3, Iron Man was the junior superhero who got brushed off by him, FF, and X-Men
    That's not how I'd read that scene. They're all busy, but they don't say anything that suggests he's a "junior" superhero. He's got six months publishing time on the X-Men, and Spidey's got a whole one story lead on him.

    Do you feel that Spider-Man is ultimately not a transcendent character like Superman and Batman are? Superman and Batman can exist and flourish as teenagers, adult men, and even older men, they can be pre-teens, single and dating, and married and fathers. All those versions are still Superman and Batman But Spider-Man, at least in the opinion of others, doesn't have that potential...and even in the Marvel Universe, has little compared to Black Panther, Reed Richards, Thing, and Iron Man.
    I don't particularly want to see a teenaged Batman, myself, and don't think that stories of Bruce in his teen years have "flourished."

    And we have seen stories with an older Peter, even as a father to a next-generation hero.

    But I do think Spider-Man is a stronger character when he's presented as young. I think he's far less of a Benjamin Button than Iron Man, too, since Spider-Man was 15 at the start and late twenties now, but Iron Man was mid-to-late thirties when he debuted and is in his early thirties now; he's actually aged backward. So has Reed, to a degree -- he was solidly over 40 when he debuted and now he's in his early 40s. Superman and Batman are both presented as younger than they used to be, despite all the Robins that have piled up.

    But I also don't particularly worry about movie box office -- if you do, it suggests that Aquaman and Black Panther are hugely popular character compared to the others, but they've got pretty checkered histories in the comics, sales-wise. I don't think Spider-Man would be more popular if he was in his 40s, and if the SHAZAM movie does really well, I don't think it'll have any bearing on whether the character has had more development in the comics; I think it'll be about whether the movie's funny and exciting and engaging.

    I think Spider-Man's probably the single strongest character Marvel has, in terms of audience appeal and storytelling power, so I don't really care if he's "transcendent," just whether he's interesting. If I was writing Spider-Man, I wouldn't be comparing him to other characters and wondering if what had worked for them should be applied to him just so he could have it too -- I'd be trying to do a terrific Spider-Man, and leave it at that.

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  7. #142
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    i keep looking for a “like” button
    troo fan or death

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    I don't really know what that means. But I believe in treating different characters differently, to make the individual books interesting rather than to have everything treated the same way, as if they're interchangeable.



    That's not how I'd read that scene. They're all busy, but they don't say anything that suggests he's a "junior" superhero. He's got six months publishing time on the X-Men, and Spidey's got a whole one story lead on him.



    I don't particularly want to see a teenaged Batman, myself, and don't think that stories of Bruce in his teen years have "flourished."

    And we have seen stories with an older Peter, even as a father to a next-generation hero.

    But I do think Spider-Man is a stronger character when he's presented as young. I think he's far less of a Benjamin Button than Iron Man, too, since Spider-Man was 15 at the start and late twenties now, but Iron Man was mid-to-late thirties when he debuted and is in his early thirties now; he's actually aged backward. So has Reed, to a degree -- he was solidly over 40 when he debuted and now he's in his early 40s. Superman and Batman are both presented as younger than they used to be, despite all the Robins that have piled up.

    But I also don't particularly worry about movie box office -- if you do, it suggests that Aquaman and Black Panther are hugely popular character compared to the others, but they've got pretty checkered histories in the comics, sales-wise. I don't think Spider-Man would be more popular if he was in his 40s, and if the SHAZAM movie does really well, I don't think it'll have any bearing on whether the character has had more development in the comics; I think it'll be about whether the movie's funny and exciting and engaging.

    I think Spider-Man's probably the single strongest character Marvel has, in terms of audience appeal and storytelling power, so I don't really care if he's "transcendent," just whether he's interesting. If I was writing Spider-Man, I wouldn't be comparing him to other characters and wondering if what had worked for them should be applied to him just so he could have it too -- I'd be trying to do a terrific Spider-Man, and leave it at that.

    kdb
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  9. #144
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    What’s great about Spider-man is we have so many versions of him going around just in the Spider titles alone. You have a lot of flavors and I think is been a real treat for diversity and variations on story telling.

    Regardless, I really like the idea of focusing on telling the most interesting stories you can and not trying to force Spidey into a certain role or archetype to make him similar or even different from over hero’s. With all the hundreds of characters it’s impossible to not have lots of overlap and similarities, and there will be some characters more similar to each other and some less.

    I like how different writers have different aspects of the character they like to highlight. Marvel is not a hive mind so each writer can tell their own best stories and you can have interesting changes in direction over the decades that is largely up to the writer and what kind of stories they are passionate to tell.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    What’s great about Spider-man is we have so many versions of him going around just in the Spider titles alone. You have a lot of flavors and I think is been a real treat for diversity and variations on story telling.

    Regardless, I really like the idea of focusing on telling the most interesting stories you can and not trying to force Spidey into a certain role or archetype to make him similar or even different from over hero’s. With all the hundreds of characters it’s impossible to not have lots of overlap and similarities, and there will be some characters more similar to each other and some less.

    I like how different writers have different aspects of the character they like to highlight. Marvel is not a hive mind so each writer can tell their own best stories and you can have interesting changes in direction over the decades that is largely up to the writer and what kind of stories they are passionate to tell.
    That's a wonderful way to look at it, and I agree wholeheartedly.

  11. #146
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    That's a wonderful way to look at it, and I agree wholeheartedly.
    Yes, the only downside is not every writer is going to have the exact same take on the character I do so I can’t get a continuous stream of my favorite Spider-man stories ever my whole life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Yes, the only downside is not every writer is going to have the exact same take on the character I Cant get a continuous stream of my favorite Spider-man stories ever my whole life.
    Lol not a bad problem to have Haha

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    The "later portrayals" I'm referring to are the ones from later than AMAZING FANTASY #15, which was made the point at which she knew.

    And too many later stories have her acting like she doesn't know (because Stan and John and others didn't think she did), in a way that's cruel and thoughtless if she actually does.

    I don't think MJ is cruel and thoughtless, so I think saying she knew as of AF #15 undercuts those portrayals by giving a layer of meaning to them that makes her look like a shitty person.

    kdb
    Frankly, I just consider some of those retroactive continuity errors; in a long-running serial, not everything adds up and these things do happen. If, in this case, the retcon that MJ secretly knew recontextualizes earlier stories written with the assumption she was in the dark in a positive way, great. If such-and-such story doesn't work with the retcon (or would make her look bad if she really knew), hey, it's just a story.
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  14. #149
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    And just like that, Kurt Busiek makes me want to go back and re-read Untold Tales. Plus his Astro City stuff while I am at it!
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  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Frankly, I just consider some of those retroactive continuity errors; in a long-running serial, not everything adds up and these things do happen. If, in this case, the retcon that MJ secretly knew recontextualizes earlier stories written with the assumption she was in the dark in a positive way, great. If such-and-such story doesn't work with the retcon (or would make her look bad if she really knew), hey, it's just a story.
    Ehh. Given a choice between Lee-Romita stories and later stories, if they don't match up, I think Stan and John got it right and the later guys got it wrong.

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