Top Ten Times Marvel Destroyed It's Own History: Spider-Man Rankings

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This is just a minor point, but I would probably say the era of #454 (v2 13) to #491 (v2 50) wouldn't count...

I was basically looking at the marriage as a status-quo. In any and every story, where Peter and MJ are married/one of them is "presumed" dead/separated, and potentially parents and/or divorced...the marriage counts as a status-quo. So the whole pregnancy/miscarriage thing counts as much as the stuff that doesn't cont. Peter and MJ being married doesn't mean she has to appear in each and every story and so on. The whole gaslighting charade put out against the marriage is that A) It had no good stories, B) It didn't allow for many kinds of stories, C) It was negligible and inconsequential...basically involves a lot of asinine arguments and inconsistent standards. I am simply looking at things normally and fairly.

The great joke is that the era you describe...is pretty much the only time there has ever been "single Peter Parker". In Spider-Man's history there has never been extended periods where Peter isn't in a relationship of some kind of another. Once Peter and MJ married, and in that period of death/separation...you had truly single Peter, who wasn't dating, wasn't looking at girls, was celibate and so on. And that period, at least until JMS came on, and basically telegraphed their reunion...the entire "death/separation" period is considered one of the lowest points in Spider-Man history certainly Pre-OMD.

I mean there you go, truly single Peter Parker...look upon ye works, ye lowly and remain the laughing stock for years to come...

Which is ironic considering MJ not being able to handle his double life is what took her so long to fully accept Peter as the one she loved.

That was something Defalco/Frenz came up as a melodramatic touch and something that never made any sense. See if MJ (as per Defalco) knew that Peter was Spider-Man some time during their dating and the time she rejected Peter's first proposal (which does make a glaring inconsistency since Wolfman's thought bubbles cite her parents' divorce and Ned and Betty's rocky marriage as her reason for turning down Peter's proposal, nothing about Spidey's double life), then her leaving Peter for his double life never made any sense since during the Wein and Wolfman era she was never all that threatened or affected by being, as she knew, Spider-Man's girlfriend. If you accept Parallel Lives as Slott himself admits we must, then she entered into a relationship with Peter, after Gwen's death, after knowing the dangers of that. So that never made any damn sense.

Even in the Defalco/Frenz era, Mary Jane's reaction was more as a result of shellshock and PTSD after the Spider-Man and Puma battle. Later issues have her going back-and-forth with Peter and Spider-Man. Issue #275, has her convincing Peter to back out of a brief "Spider-Man no more" spiel, and then in Web of Spider-Man #6, Danny Fingeroth's script has her say:

"Sometimes being a swinging bachelorette isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes it's so hard to keep on my happy-go-lucky face all day...it seems like a hubby, a house, and 2 to 3 kids would be just the ticket. But you had a shot at that didn't you, M. J. And you couldn't have asked for a better catch than Peter Parker. There was only one problem: I figured out that Peter was really Spider-Man—and once I realized that, I knew I could never marry someone who I never knew for sure would come home from work alive!...Oh, why does he have to have such a darn high sense of responsibility?...If only he were less altruistic -- I would've accepted his proposal on the spot. But if he was different...he wouldn't be the same guy you loved, would he, M. J,? Face it, lady: Peter Parker and Spider-Man—two sides of the same coin."
— M.J.'s thought bubbles, Web of Spider-Man, Issue #6 Vol. 1, written by Danny Fingeroth.

So there you have that divide. Mary Jane is madly in love with Peter Parker but she is fearful for his life as Spider-Man and yet Peter being Spider-Man is exactly why she loved him in the first place. I mean it's one of those unresolvable things in any relationship and so on.

Then Louise Simonson's script in ASM Annual #19 where Alister Smythe kidnaps MJ because he thinks she's Spider-Man (!) has her getting more used to the idea of being caught up in Spider-Man's adventures and David Michelinie brought back Smythe in 290-292 as a build-up to the wedding since it was a neat way to set her accepting the proposal in such a short-time and overcoming her issues about being Mrs. Spider-Man.

[WebSlingWonder]

I was basically looking at the marriage as a status-quo. In any and every story, where Peter and MJ are married/one of them is "presumed" dead/separated, and potentially parents and/or divorced...the marriage counts as a status-quo. So the whole pregnancy/miscarriage thing counts as much as the stuff that doesn't cont. Peter and MJ being married doesn't mean she has to appear in each and every story and so on. The whole gaslighting charade put out against the marriage is that A) It had no good stories, B) It didn't allow for many kinds of stories, C) It was negligible and inconsequential...basically involves a lot of asinine arguments and inconsistent standards. I am simply looking at things normally and fairly.

The great joke is that the era you describe...is pretty much the only time there has ever been "single Peter Parker". In Spider-Man's history there has never been extended periods where Peter isn't in a relationship of some kind of another. Once Peter and MJ married, and in that period of death/separation...you had truly single Peter, who wasn't dating, wasn't looking at girls, was celibate and so on. And that period, at least until JMS came on, and basically telegraphed their reunion...the entire "death/separation" period is considered one of the lowest points in Spider-Man history certainly Pre-OMD.

I mean there you go, truly single Peter Parker...look upon ye works, ye lowly and remain the laughing stock for years to come...



That was something Defalco/Frenz came up as a melodramatic touch and something that never made any sense. See if MJ (as per Defalco) knew that Peter was Spider-Man some time during their dating and the time she rejected Peter's first proposal (which does make a glaring inconsistency since Wolfman's thought bubbles cite her parents' divorce and Ned and Betty's rocky marriage as her reason for turning down Peter's proposal, nothing about Spidey's double life), then her leaving Peter for his double life never made any sense since during the Wein and Wolfman era she was never all that threatened or affected by being, as she knew, Spider-Man's girlfriend. If you accept Parallel Lives as Slott himself admits we must, then she entered into a relationship with Peter, after Gwen's death, after knowing the dangers of that. So that never made any damn sense.

Even in the Defalco/Frenz era, Mary Jane's reaction was more as a result of shellshock and PTSD after the Spider-Man and Puma battle. Later issues have her going back-and-forth with Peter and Spider-Man. Issue #275, has her convincing Peter to back out of a brief "Spider-Man no more" spiel, and then in Web of Spider-Man #6, Danny Fingeroth's script has her say:

"Sometimes being a swinging bachelorette isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes it's so hard to keep on my happy-go-lucky face all day...it seems like a hubby, a house, and 2 to 3 kids would be just the ticket. But you had a shot at that didn't you, M. J. And you couldn't have asked for a better catch than Peter Parker. There was only one problem: I figured out that Peter was really Spider-Man—and once I realized that, I knew I could never marry someone who I never knew for sure would come home from work alive!...Oh, why does he have to have such a darn high sense of responsibility?...If only he were less altruistic -- I would've accepted his proposal on the spot. But if he was different...he wouldn't be the same guy you loved, would he, M. J,? Face it, lady: Peter Parker and Spider-Man—two sides of the same coin."
— M.J.'s thought bubbles, Web of Spider-Man, Issue #6 Vol. 1, written by Danny Fingeroth.

So there you have that divide. Mary Jane is madly in love with Peter Parker but she is fearful for his life as Spider-Man and yet Peter being Spider-Man is exactly why she loved him in the first place. I mean it's one of those unresolvable things in any relationship and so on.

Then Louise Simonson's script in ASM Annual #19 where Alister Smythe kidnaps MJ because he thinks she's Spider-Man (!) has her getting more used to the idea of being caught up in Spider-Man's adventures and David Michelinie brought back Smythe in 290-292 as a build-up to the wedding since it was a neat way to set her accepting the proposal in such a short-time and overcoming her issues about being Mrs. Spider-Man.

Okay, I'm trying to be polite, but why do you post essays on every single forum post?? I want to understand your point, and I do, but it seems so freaking dense behind your...passion for the character.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Okay, I'm trying to be polite, but why do you post essays on every single forum post??

I don't do essays for every forum post. Only where it's relevant. In a post describing OMD and Clone Saga as rewriting Marvel's history it is important to highlight what precisely they did, why it is significant, especially because since for a lot of people the idea of throwing out 20 years continuity and so on has happened so often that people treat it as a "new normal".

I want to understand your point, and I do, but it seems so freaking dense behind your...passion for the character.

It's because I see a lot of bad arguments, false assumptions, and outright falsehoods, so I need to correct that. Saying stuff like Mary Jane was made into a different character after marriage or that she was always the party girl or that her backstory was invented after marriage...which I see repeatedly elsewhere, brought out a need for me to be shut it down and shut it down hard. And the facts work best.

[WebSlingWonder]

I don't do essays for every forum post. Only where it's relevant. In a post describing OMD and Clone Saga as rewriting Marvel's history it is important to highlight what precisely they did, why it is significant, especially because since for a lot of people the idea of throwing out 20 years continuity and so on has happened so often that people treat it as a "new normal".



It's because I see a lot of bad arguments, false assumptions, and outright falsehoods, so I need to correct that. Saying stuff like Mary Jane was made into a different character after marriage or that she was always the party girl or that her backstory was invented after marriage...which I see repeatedly elsewhere, brought out a need for me to be shut it down and shut it down hard. And the facts work best.

And I understand all of that. I do. But it will ultimately change nothing unless we're sitting in the Spider-Office right now. We can fact check and demand, but this will ultimately prove fruitless.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And I understand all of that. I do. But it will ultimately change nothing unless we're sitting in the Spider-Office right now. We can fact check and demand, but this will ultimately prove fruitless.

The important thing is to make sure the stigma of what happens sticks. That people never get over OMD or treat this as normal. In general that has happened. The fandom remains polarized, the anger has never died down. And what you can control is to make sure that people don't forget or pretend the marriage was a negligible part or anything.

That it was a fundamental part of the character's publication history and can never be written away. That is something one can have control over. Correcting falsehoods or bad arguments is its own reward in any case.

[Inversed]

The great joke is that the era you describe...is pretty much the only time there has ever been "single Peter Parker". In Spider-Man's history there has never been extended periods where Peter isn't in a relationship of some kind of another. Once Peter and MJ married, and in that period of death/separation...you had truly single Peter, who wasn't dating, wasn't looking at girls, was celibate and so on. And that period, at least until JMS came on, and basically telegraphed their reunion...the entire "death/separation" period is considered one of the lowest points in Spider-Man history certainly Pre-OMD.

And that era also wasn't completely devoid of any kind of "romantic tension", since you also had Mattie Franklin coming onto Peter, RIGHT after MJ supposedly died (oof), and during that period Randy and his roommates tried to set him up with some dates, which he never accepted due to his love for his wife, plus subconsciously knowing she was alive.

That was something Defalco/Frenz came up as a melodramatic touch and something that never made any sense. See if MJ (as per Defalco) knew that Peter was Spider-Man some time during their dating and the time she rejected Peter's first proposal (which does make a glaring inconsistency since Wolfman's thought bubbles cite her parents' divorce and Ned and Betty's rocky marriage as her reason for turning down Peter's proposal, nothing about Spidey's double life), then her leaving Peter for his double life never made any sense since during the Wein and Wolfman era she was never all that threatened or affected by being, as she knew, Spider-Man's girlfriend. If you accept Parallel Lives as Slott himself admits we must, then she entered into a relationship with Peter, after Gwen's death, after knowing the dangers of that. So that never made any damn sense.

I think that's the thing no matter what that you'll have to deal with when you have many different writers retconning and recontextualizing many different aspects about a character, each with their own version or interpretations, many people are going to read things different or reach a different conclusion regarding the info given. So for example, based on what I know of MJ, I could just as easily see her knowing Peter is Spider-Man as a factor why she rejected the first marriage proposal as well as her family and friend's marriage history. Plus I've always thought MJ, especially back then, could be fairly melodramatic so something like that could fit. And its in that Second Proposal arc where she finally learns to not run and face things head on when she can finally see clearly and accept her emotions and feelings for what they really are.

So there you have that divide. Mary Jane is madly in love with Peter Parker but she is fearful for his life as Spider-Man and yet Peter being Spider-Man is exactly why she loved him in the first place. I mean it's one of those unresolvable things in any relationship and so on.

I do agree that that is the most interesting thing about her as a love interest and one of the many reasons she's so compelling, she always fears for Peter as Spider-Man risking his life, many times wishing he would stop, but ultimately him as Spider-Man doing whatever he can to help others is why she loves him so much. And through the best writers, it comes through so natural.

[WebSlingWonder]

The important thing is to make sure the stigma of what happens sticks. That people never get over OMD or treat this as normal. In general that has happened. The fandom remains polarized, the anger has never died down. And what you can control is to make sure that people don't forget or pretend the marriage was a negligible part or anything.

That it was a fundamental part of the character's publication history and can never be written away. That is something one can have control over. Correcting falsehoods or bad arguments is its own reward in any case.

Do you realize how manic that sounds?
We're talking about a fictional character that has tons of stories. One story, two if you count Clone Saga, should not destroy a lifetime of creativity. I've said this before: I am not defending OMD or Clone Saga, but i am defending the right of creators to tell the stories they want to tell. Should they use continuity, yes; are they slaves to it, no. On top of that, the stigma you speak of is only in the minds of readers, and I get that. But no one is trying to say it's normal: it's just exhausting to hear about 24 hours a day.

[Miles To Go]

it's just exhausting to hear about 24 hours a day.

It gets results though. DC eventually listened and disposed of the New 52.

[WebSlingWonder]

It gets results though. DC eventually listened and disposed of the New 52.

"It gets results."
That doesn't justify anything.
And on top of that, the New 52 timeline is technically still in effect: just superimposed with the Pre-New 52 timeline.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Do you realize how manic that sounds?

It's not manic, it's a form of protest. Again I don't post all the time exclusively about OMD or so on...though I understand some people have that impression, but in a forum topic discussing an article that lists OMD and the Clone Saga near the top of the times when "Marvel Destroyed Its Own History", you are going to find sentiments expressing an opinion on that side.

The fact that One More Day is both the worst Spider-Man story and also one of the most important ones from a publication and continuity perspective is a terrible shame and perversion and that has had, and will continue to have, long-term consequences.

We're talking about a fictional character that has tons of stories. One story, two if you count Clone Saga, should not destroy a lifetime of creativity.

In a serialized continuity and so on, later stories and so on do affect the overall experience. It's similar to how Star Wars feel about their overall experience being ruined by the Prequels or the Sequels, or you know originally Empire Strikes Back and since the 90s Return of the Jedi. Or how HP fans feel about the epilogue, that play, the Fantastic Beasts movies and so on. Not everything before the Clone Saga was good, and not everything during the Clone Saga was bad, just like not everything before OMD was good nor was everything after OMD bad. But in terms of the overall effect, both of them were the worst things to ever happen to Spider-Man in a serial continuity and it replaced something worthwhile with something that was far worthless in value.

Should they use continuity, yes; are they slaves to it, no.

Given the nature of Spider-Man being especially strongly serialized and so on...you kind of ''do'' have to be slaves to continuity.

On top of that, the stigma you speak of is only in the minds of readers, and I get that. But no one is trying to say it's normal: it's just exhausting to hear about 24 hours a day.

Well I didn't write the article "Top Ten Times Marvel Destroyed its history", I didn't start the forum discussing that...what exactly do people expect in a forum with that topic? or a topic with Mephisto in it in a Spider-Man forum? Fundamentally this thread is about Clone Saga and OMD ruining Spider-Man.

[Mister Mets]

That's a fairly cunning way to arrive at a more or less arbitrary conclusion and stopping point -- Retcons weren't needed until the marriage, but even if there were changes and progress before the marriage those didn't justify a retcon even if there were writers then who wanted it.

Some things aren't subjective. Some 810 issues' worth of content in 616 Marvel Alone with a married Spider-Man and Mary Jane as a default status-quo can't simply be written off. That is the longest lasting status-quo in Spider-Man and it attracted several generations of new and young readers. The marriage as a status-quo lasted longer than high school, and college...and currently it still has the record over post-OMD which is admittedly at the half-way mark but the marriage happened in a period where the comics market hadn't shrunk as much as it did today. It was more heavily read than the current era and it will remain so. Fundamentally, in a sales sense, and in terms of audience reach, and in overall solvency of Spider-Man's brand, the marriage worked.



Okay...and what did OMD swap out and return in place? Because one thing is for sure...Post-OMD Spider-Man is damn sure not unpredictable. As Erik Larsen (no fan of the Marriage) pointed out:



As soon as Peter graduated high school, and went to college, readers expected and were promised that they would see Spider-Man grow up. Comic Book Time delayed that a bit but didn't entirely dial away that promise. And the nature of Peter Parker, being from a literary perspective a more defined and three-dimensional character than Batman and Superman are, means that there are hard rules about what you can do with that character. There is always a limit of how many relationships Peter can have before he goes from "unlucky with women" to self-pitying womanizer. Having him go back and forth between two or more girlfriends makes him the same, and also raises questions about his fidelity. And from a merchandising standpoint you can't sell too many action figures of Peter's civilian girlfriends. All the marriage did was settle the romantic side of Peter's life. But everything else: work/life balance, career, ambitions, responsiiblities, supervillain issues, and so on...those remained in place. Fundamentally the marriage was entirely consistent to the illusion of change. That's why it was able to generate so much content. It didn't actually resolve Peter's basic issues, and it showed marriage not as a happily ever after end-state but an active daily adventure.

Instead now there's no illusion of change. There's just no change...

The whole question of whether a retcon is necessary is going to be based on your subjective understandings. If you think the marriage is a good thing for the comics, you won't think any retcons were necessary, but it's just as arbitrary as any conclusion that a retcon of any sorts is better for the series.

I do disagree with the idea that the marriage was a stable status quo for a long time. It wasn't. Just as there have been changes to Peter Parker's job status at the Daily Bugle, there have been changes to the marital status of the lead.

We had a married Spider-Man from Amazing Spider-Man #293 until the Clone Saga "revealed" that the Peter Parker who got married was the clone. That was an eight year stretch.
We had a single Spider-Man for an year in Ben Reilly. Then Peter Parker came back, and we had a married Spider-Man for about three years, including an year in which MJ thought someone else was Spider-Man.
Then Mary Jane was believed dead for an year and a half.
Then Mary Jane and Peter were separated for about 2 years (from May 2001's Annual until April 2003's Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #50, although Peter Parker Spider-Man didn't really feature MJ for its final issues.)
Peter and MJ were together again for about 4 1/2 years, until One More Day.

One More Day brought a Peter Parker who had not yet found the love of his life. Currently, we've got a Peter Parker who is back with MJ, realizing what he's lost and not sure he'll be able to keep it.

The problem with having Spider-Man grow up is that it eventually gets to a place where there is no change, where the majority of his life decisions have been made.

The illusion of change works with certain developments. There are some decisions that require retcons to reverse, and I would suggest the books shouldn't have that. These would include Peter getting married, having kids, having his identity revealed to the public, and taking a life.

[WebSlingWonder]

It's not manic, it's a form of protest. Again I don't post all the time exclusively about OMD or so on...though I understand some people have that impression, but in a forum topic discussing an article that lists OMD and the Clone Saga near the top of the times when "Marvel Destroyed Its Own History", you are going to find sentiments expressing an opinion on that side.

The fact that One More Day is both the worst Spider-Man story and also one of the most important ones from a publication and continuity perspective is a terrible shame and perversion and that has had, and will continue to have, long-term consequences.



In a serialized continuity and so on, later stories and so on do affect the overall experience. It's similar to how Star Wars feel about their overall experience being ruined by the Prequels or the Sequels, or you know originally Empire Strikes Back and since the 90s Return of the Jedi. Or how HP fans feel about the epilogue, that play, the Fantastic Beasts movies and so on. Not everything before the Clone Saga was good, and not everything during the Clone Saga was bad, just like not everything before OMD was good nor was everything after OMD bad. But in terms of the overall effect, both of them were the worst things to ever happen to Spider-Man in a serial continuity and it replaced something worthwhile with something that was far worthless in value.



Given the nature of Spider-Man being especially strongly serialized and so on...you kind of ''do'' have to be slaves to continuity.



Well I didn't write the article "Top Ten Times Marvel Destroyed its history", I didn't start the forum discussing that...what exactly do people expect in a forum with that topic? or a topic with Mephisto in it in a Spider-Man forum? Fundamentally this thread is about Clone Saga and OMD ruining Spider-Man.

You know what: fine. Do what you do. This discussion, or protest, is just baffling to me. I don't know what more I can say before I just repeat myself.

[Vortex85]

One More Day brought a Peter Parker who had not yet found the love of his life.

That angle didn't work well because "putting the genie back in the bottle" isn't possible with readers. You can do it to Peter in story, but the fans know he who he was married to, how it was lost, and are just waiting for Peter to realize what we already know about who he is supposed to be with. It's hard to believe in other relationships when you are so certain you know the CORRECT one for Peter.

Currently, we've got a Peter Parker who is back with MJ, realizing what he's lost and not sure he'll be able to keep it.

The reason this IS working is that the writers are not pretending this is just another love interst in a list of them. The narrative is declaring Mary Jane is in fact, THE LOVE of Peter's life. I love that Nick Spencer and company are not trying to pretend otherwise. Finally the writers are declaring in story what readers know should be the case, not trying to pretend or lie to create a cheap illusion.

The problem with having Spider-Man grow up is that it eventually gets to a place where there is no change, where the majority of his life decisions have been made.

The illusion of change works with certain developments. There are some decisions that require retcons to reverse, and I would suggest the books shouldn't have that. These would include Peter getting married, having kids, having his identity revealed to the public, and taking a life.

No doubt, this all worked before Peter was married to MJ and the narrative declared them as the ONE TRUE PAIRING they are known as today. Post-OMD, the putting the marriage back in the bottle isn't effective for most readers who are aware of Peter and MJ's "meant to be" status. Other love interests don't have the impact with fans. They just feel like filler until Peter and MJ are back together again.

Therefore, I think while having Peter single for his life USED to work, and WOULD have continued to work had he never been married for so long, history has changed that forever going forward. It doesnt work anymore, you can't fool fans into thinking Peter and MJ aren' supposed to be together. Therefore, I say, go for it with the marriage. Explore the adventure in that for Peter Parker, embrace it, and let the character benefit from what you get out of it. Leave the single life for Ben Reilly, Miles Morales, Spider-Gwen, and all the characters whose futures aren't so defined in the minds of fandom.

Peter's love life is pretty set in stone whether he's married or not. The "illusion" when he's dating someone else is completely broken.

[Vortex85]

One more thought.

I just can't enjoy when I know a writer's game. All the "relationships" from post-OMD up until Spencer's run just felt hollow and empty. I know Slott didn't actually believe these were going to work out for Peter. I know those "love interests" were not going to be with Peter decades from now, not like Mary Jane will be. But the author has to pretend it can work out, and no one is being honest with themselves. Fans have to play dumb, and the writer has to play dumb. It's so fake and empty it's maddening.

Maybe some fans can't put that feeling aside and enjoy the ride. Maybe some fans fell for it and actually believed Peter and MJ were done. I just knew this was not the case and it is never more clear going forward it never will be the case.

So I am glad we are finally at a point the writers are not pretending anymore. We can finally sit down and enjoy a romantic paring the writers believe in, the fans believe in. No ones pretending anymore. We can just focus on enjoying the stories and believing in them. It's a great feeling.

[Scott Taylor]

For me all the interviews post-OMD and other behind the scenes information that came out hurt my ability to move on. Too much wagging the dog going on there. It led to my being less invested because I felt that a lot of the soap opera was going to be predictable moving forward.

It seemed like OMD, in effect, did the opposite of what it was intended to do. Now there were set rules in place about what a writer could and could not do with the character, and we all knew them.