Top Ten Times Marvel Destroyed It's Own History: Spider-Man Rankings

[Kurt Busiek]

I had no idea when commenting online that the actual living Kurt Busiek would respond but ignorance of the internet is no excuse. I am sorry, for my sake since this is my doing, that it came to pass that way. While I do have my disagreements and disapproval about some of the stories and decisions you have been part of, Mr. Busiek, I also want to say that I consider you a writer of immense talent and ability, and I especially like Thunderbolts. And Untold Tales #16 was the first 616 Spider-Man comic I read.

No worries, Jack. "Disagreements and disapproval" come with the territory -- no creator's likely to please everyone on everything.

Thanks for the kind words, and glad you like T-BOLTS.

Kurt Busiek?! Oh my goodness, I am a huge fan! But you probably get that so often.

Thank you, too.

kdb

[WebSlingWonder]

No worries, Jack. "Disagreements and disapproval" come with the territory -- no creator's likely to please everyone on everything.

Thanks for the kind words, and glad you like T-BOLTS.



Thank you, too.

kdb

Mr. Busiek, what do you like about Spider-Man? About writing the character?

[Kurt Busiek]

Mr. Busiek, what do you like about Spider-Man? About writing the character?

He's a smartass. That makes scripting him a lot of fun.

But more than that, he's so very human. He's a flawed, imperfect guy trying to be a responsible adult, but who hasn't figured it all out, so he makes mistakes, then tries to figure out a way to fix those mistakes and do better. That's aspirational, redemptive and appealing.

Classically, Spider-Man is also about a young man caught between responsibilities -- he has responsibilities as Spider-Man on one scale (metaphorically the "adult" scale, if you look at the character as an adolescent metaphor, as he started out), and responsibilities as Peter on another scale (metaphorically the "kid/teen/youngster/student/whatever scale), and those responsibilities inevitably come into conflict, and he has enormous trouble navigating them both, but never stops trying.

That aspect is blunted when the people most important to his "Peter" life know about and are supportive of his Spidey responsibilities, because they understand the conflict and that takes him off the hook, reducing the struggle. But I think that part was very, very important to the development of the series and to Spider-Man becoming as popular as he became, and I had a lot of fun with it in UNTOLD TALES, while I wrote an aware and supportive MJ in the "modern" issues I wrote during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Plus he's got great powers, making him active and kinetic, a world-class costume and a great rogues gallery.

All that adds up to making him one of the best superheroes ever created.

kdb

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That aspect is blunted when the people most important to his "Peter" life know about and are supportive of his Spidey responsibilities, because they understand the conflict and that takes him off the hook, reducing the struggle. But I think that part was very, very important to the development of the series and to Spider-Man becoming as popular as he became, and I had a lot of fun with it in UNTOLD TALES, while I wrote an aware and supportive MJ in the "modern" issues I wrote during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Given how controversial Parallel Lives is, I am surprised, and pleased, that you included that twist and development in Untold Tales #16, which is one of the few times that was mentioned in "canon" in 616, I believe.

When I was small I came to know Spider-Man first as an adult married man in the newspaper and later in the main continuity, and I still liked Spider-Man for the same reasons you mentioned (his humor, his earthiness, his irreverence, and powers) and that he grew up and changed actually made him more appealing to me than Batman and Superman did.

I always found it interesting that your Untold Tales of Spider-Man actually features more high school Peter stuff than Lee-Ditko did in their run.

[WebSlingWonder]

He's a smartass. That makes scripting him a lot of fun.

But more than that, he's so very human. He's a flawed, imperfect guy trying to be a responsible adult, but who hasn't figured it all out, so he makes mistakes, then tries to figure out a way to fix those mistakes and do better. That's aspirational, redemptive and appealing.

Classically, Spider-Man is also about a young man caught between responsibilities -- he has responsibilities as Spider-Man on one scale (metaphorically the "adult" scale, if you look at the character as an adolescent metaphor, as he started out), and responsibilities as Peter on another scale (metaphorically the "kid/teen/youngster/student/whatever scale), and those responsibilities inevitably come into conflict, and he has enormous trouble navigating them both, but never stops trying.

That aspect is blunted when the people most important to his "Peter" life know about and are supportive of his Spidey responsibilities, because they understand the conflict and that takes him off the hook, reducing the struggle. But I think that part was very, very important to the development of the series and to Spider-Man becoming as popular as he became, and I had a lot of fun with it in UNTOLD TALES, while I wrote an aware and supportive MJ in the "modern" issues I wrote during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Plus he's got great powers, making him active and kinetic, a world-class costume and a great rogues gallery.

All that adds up to making him one of the best superheroes ever created.

kdb

That's an interesting take: when the supporting cast truly know Peter and Spider-Man are the same, the dual conflict is diminished. I guess I didn't think of it that way. I read that issue of Untold Tales with MJ and I thought it was so fascinating how she was intrigued by Peter but at the same time, they didn't formally meet until much later. It adds another layer of story to his world.

[Kurt Busiek]

Given how controversial Parallel Lives is, I am surprised, and pleased, that you included that twist and development in Untold Tales #16, which is one of the few times that was mentioned in "canon" in 616, I believe.

Two things, on that score:

1. It was a way to get an MJ story in there, even though they hadn't met yet.

2. If we were gonna be exacting about continuity, then we were gonna be exacting about it, controversial or not. I thought MJ knowing was a bad idea that undercut her later portrayals, much like I thought it was a bad idea for Peter's parents to be spies. But they were the established facts I was working with, and if I could get a good story out of, then I was gonna do it, even if I didn't agree with the choice as a reader. It was there to use.

I always found it interesting that your Untold Tales of Spider-Man actually features more high school Peter stuff than Lee-Ditko did in their run.

I don't think I'd ever realized that.

It's probably because I was locked in to what we already knew with characters like Peter and May and Jonah, so I introduced Tiny, Jason and Sally (well, expanded on Sally) to do ongoing subplots with. Had I introduced a new Bugle reporter, I'd have doubtless done more Bugle stuff, too.

kdb

[Scott Taylor]

One of the little touches I really loved about the Spiderverse movie (a movie chock full of little touches) is that they did a good job capturing the smart ass aspect of each and every spider-person.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Two things, on that score:

1. It was a way to get an MJ story in there, even though they hadn't met yet.

2. If we were gonna be exacting about continuity, then we were gonna be exacting about it, controversial or not. I thought MJ knowing was a bad idea that undercut her later portrayals, much like I thought it was a bad idea for Peter's parents to be spies. But they were the established facts I was working with, and if I could get a good story out of, then I was gonna do it, even if I didn't agree with the choice as a reader. It was there to use.

I appreciate that and I thank you for being a true professional. One thing about early Ditko and Mary Jane that fascinated me was that he drew her as a more middle-class character (like wearing a babushka and so on) and then had her drive a car, while Lee and Romita had her being fascinated with Peter's moped and apparently not owning a car and so on. Parallel Lives and before that Defalco/Frenz's AS #259 (which admittedly never spelled out when she knew) has the advantage of inserting Romita's Mary Jane back into the earlier stories.

I don't think I'd ever realized that.

I had this discussion with Mister Mets a while back about how the idea of Spider-Man being tied to high school specifically is far more recent. The first cartoon to show an exclusively high school Spider-Man was Greg Weisman's The Spectacular Spider-Man which drew on Untold Tales for inspiration. And that was in the mid-00s when before all cartoons had him in college and certainly not as a teenager. Then Ultimate Spider-Man had 200 issues without him graduating high school. And then Mister Mets mentioned your Untold Tales as an earlier example of that...because originally Peter graduated in Issue #28 and even then there was hardly any high school stuff before that, with the focus being on the Bugle and the first love triangle being this office romance of Peter/Betty/Ned Leeds.

[Kurt Busiek]

I had this discussion with Mister Mets a while back about how the idea of Spider-Man being tied to high school specifically is far more recent. The first cartoon to show an exclusively high school Spider-Man was Greg Weisman's The Spectacular Spider-Man which drew on Untold Tales for inspiration. And that was in the mid-00s when before all cartoons had him in college and certainly not as a teenager. Then Ultimate Spider-Man had 200 issues without him graduating high school. And then Mister Mets mentioned your Untold Tales as an earlier example of that...because originally Peter graduated in Issue #28 and even then there was hardly any high school stuff before that, with the focus being on the Bugle and the first love triangle being this office romance of Peter/Betty/Ned Leeds.

I wouldn't say "hardly any." All the Flash stuff stemmed from high school, all the Liz Allan stuff, and more.

Peter did graduate in #28, but by UNTOLD #25, we were having Peter visiting ESU since he was soon to graduate. Had we continued even six more issues, Peter would have graduated and gone on to ESU.

...and Liz would have gone to Metro and met Whitey Horgan and that crowd, from FF.

But initially, Marvel did intend for UNTOLD TALES to be set in the college years. They just forgot to tell me, so when I wrote up my pitch, I started at the earliest point that I thought made sense, so I could do a story around Aunt May's reaction to Peter ditching his glasses, something that wasn't explored at the time that I could build into a story.

And Marvel liked my pitch, so boom, high school.

Had they told me to start in the college years, I'd have looked for a starting point early in those days.

kdb

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wouldn't say "hardly any." All the Flash stuff stemmed from high school, all the Liz Allan stuff, and more.

Peter did graduate in #28, but by UNTOLD #25, we were having Peter visiting ESU since he was soon to graduate. Had we continued even six more issues, Peter would have graduated and gone on to ESU.

...and Liz would have gone to Metro and met Whitey Horgan and that crowd, from FF.

But initially, Marvel did intend for UNTOLD TALES to be set in the college years. They just forgot to tell me, so when I wrote up my pitch, I started at the earliest point that I thought made sense, so I could do a story around Aunt May's reaction to Peter ditching his glasses, something that wasn't explored at the time that I could build into a story.

And Marvel liked my pitch, so boom, high school.

Had they told me to start in the college years, I'd have looked for a starting point early in those days.

kdb

Maybe you can do a sequel series set in the college era, though I think Spider-Man: Blue which actually showed the Peter Gwen romance in far more detail than the perfunctory way it happened in that time (which becomes clear on re-reading), does capture parts of that. Reading Untold Tales and Spider-Man: Blue early in my entry years into 616 did help me get a sense of Spider-Man in different periods and provided a context and big moments to look for when going back.

[Kurt Busiek]

Maybe you can do a sequel series set in the college era,

Nah. I had my fun.

We've talked about doing one more short UNTOLD TALES project, which would be set in the college era, but other than (maybe) that, I think it's best to go onward and do different things, and I've got plenty of 'em to do.

[WebSlingWonder]

Nah. I had my fun.

We've talked about doing one more short UNTOLD TALES project, which would be set in the college era, but other than (maybe) that, I think it's best to go onward and do different things, and I've got plenty of 'em to do.

Just reading the origin of Untold Tales is awesome. It's truly a treat to hear the story from you.

I'm with Jack: a sequel series set in Peter's college years in the vein of "Spider-Man: Blue" would be a dream come true!

[Inversed]

We have had a couple "Untold Tales"-esque stories fairly recently, most specifically Slott's Learning To Crawl and Saladin Ahmed's recent Annual about the symbiote, and those all turned out very well, so I would be all for a new Untold Tales series, whether that's focusing on his college time or another era that could work.

[Miles To Go]

I thought MJ knowing was a bad idea that undercut her later portrayals

Hi. I grew up on MJ knowing and it never undercut who she was to me. Her later portrayals saw her grow and mature significantly, proving noone in Spidey's world need stay in amber. Attempts to scale her back to her old ways even with the knowledge intact usually resulted in lukewarm if not outright hostile reactions from fans and probably the worst years for the character creatively. The growth and maturity that comes with the knowledge is what makes her so endearing today as the central guiding support pillar in Peter's life across various mediums.

much like I thought it was a bad idea for Peter's parents to be spies. But they were the established facts I was working with, and if I could get a good story out of, then I was gonna do it, even if I didn't agree with the choice as a reader. It was there to use

As controversial as the spy parents are, I still feel like the story by Stan is pretty good, with some wonderful emotional moments between Peter and Aunt May, and getting Uncle Ben's reaction. One thing I didn't get is that they later retconned the Red Skull who dealt with Richard and Mary as an imposter.

[Huntsman Spider]

Hi. I grew up on MJ knowing and it never undercut who she was to me. Her later portrayals saw her grow and mature significantly, proving noone in Spidey's world need stay in amber. Attempts to scale her back to her old ways even with the knowledge intact usually resulted in lukewarm if not outright hostile reactions from fans and probably the worst years for the character creatively. The growth and maturity that comes with the knowledge is what makes her so endearing today as the central guiding support pillar in Peter's life across various mediums.



As controversial as the spy parents are, I still feel like the story by Stan is pretty good, with some wonderful emotional moments between Peter and Aunt May, and getting Uncle Ben's reaction. One thing I didn't get is that they later retconned the Red Skull who dealt with Richard and Mary as an imposter.

That happened because in the 1960s when the story was originally published, it would've made sense to have the original Nazi Red Skull as the one Richard and Mary went undercover to beat since World War II would've only been 20 years prior to what was then the present. As the gap between the "present" and the "past" continued to widen over the years, it wasn't so feasible to have the original Nazi Red Skull malingering all that time without having significantly aged or without Richard and Mary (and Peter) being older than they were intended to be, so the Red Skull that orphaned Peter was retconned as a Communist impostor trading on the Red Skull's name and reputation. After all, with Nazism defeated and safely in the past (or so most would presume), Communism became the new ideological foe of Western civilization, and that was what a lot of Marvel Comics stories traded on in the heyday of the 1960s to the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Or maybe all that was just a long-winded way of saying that as certain realities changed over the course of American (and world) history, Marvel Comics had to catch up and adapt to those changes, hence all the retcons.