Why let the Marvel Heroes suffer from their "actions ?"

[Cmbmool]

The recent Infinity War, Secret Empire and the original Civil War. Each has a hero/heroine acting out and then later on they get off scott free. I mean I would have liked Secret Empire to end with ONE Captain America dealing with himself, his history and his place in the Marvel Universe.

Or have Tony Stark /Iron Man created a back-up data file of the original Civil War so he can remember what he did there.

Or have Gamora Suffer for her actions in Infinity Wars, not have Adam Warlock spirit her away from punishment.

Honestly: What's the point of having heroes be the antagonist if the company is just going to undo things later on ?

Even Reed Richards got off Scott free from Civil War!!

I want an event where Reed Richards suffers from his actions and his truly shunned by his peers and even seeing the YOUNGER GENERATION, not his daughter nor son, but the YOUNGER HEROES rising up and being even smarter than he is. Just one Marvel event with some aftermath that means something and will not be taken back. Is that too much to ask ?

[Tycon]

Coates’ Captain America is dealing with the direct fallout from Secret Empire.

Gamora was never really a villain, in fact, as soon as she got what she wanted she spent the rest of the event trying to right her wrongs.

[Tony Stark]

I don't know how much more people want Tony to pay. He lost his company. He lost 2 men he loved like brothers Happy and Cap. Lost a man that treated him more like son than his own father did which was Sal Kennedy. He ended up in a coma to keep the super heroes true identity’s out of Osborns hands and just because he didn't remember what he did people still hated him for it. Hell even in Civil War 2 he ended up in a coma. Tony's paid enough. People need to move on. Evolve.

[Snoop Dogg]

No character gets as consistently reamed in these events as Tony. From Civil War to Siege he's a cosmic punching bag, then in Fear Itself he has to get wasted, then he's dealing with colliding universes, then he's inverted, then as soon as he's back to normal and a-ok, he explodes.

Steve doesn't deserve to face any consequences because he did everything right, but is still going to feel responsible when Stevil gets out and does bad stuff.

Everything Reed did from Civil War is related to the equation wall and the "solve everything" attitude that's addressed early in Hickman's run and still rolls over all the way to Secret Wars.

[Sutekh]

I vaguely recall a story either during or after the first Civil War where Reed went to 'check his math' with the Mad Thinker, and it was implied that the Mad Thinker kind of conned him into thinking it was a good idea, just to pour gas on the fire to come. It seemed like a sort of 'author saving throw,' to explain why such a smart guy would support such a dumb idea, but at least the writer was trying to half-assedly justify it after-the-fact. (PAD similarly wrote a story at the time where Reed had been replaced by an extra-dimensional brute, and left it wide open as to how long that had been going on, if anyone wanted to pick up on that and use it as an excuse for why Reed was involved, but, AFAIK, no one bit.)

But yeah, Sue should have dumped his stretchy ass the moment he sent super-villain 'cape-killers' after herself, her brother and his best friend over a disagreement over something that wasn't even a law yet. And Didio, when asked, in response said that she'd forgive him, because, 'He'll cook her dinner or something.' Yikes.

If anything, the punishment / fallout has disproportionately fallen on Tony, while Reed has more or less skated.

[DragonsChi]

People say they want the "Younger Generation" to rise up but the truth is they don't really get anywhere near the support to be able to.

Marvel really should just start writing their Heroes as heroes and then there would be less of a problem. The originals/old generation is still currently the best.

[Agent Z]

I vaguely recall a story either during or after the first Civil War where Reed went to 'check his math' with the Mad Thinker, and it was implied that the Mad Thinker kind of conned him into thinking it was a good idea, just to pour gas on the fire to come. It seemed like a sort of 'author saving throw,' to explain why such a smart guy would support such a dumb idea, but at least the writer was trying to half-assedly justify it after-the-fact. (PAD similarly wrote a story at the time where Reed had been replaced by an extra-dimensional brute, and left it wide open as to how long that had been going on, if anyone wanted to pick up on that and use it as an excuse for why Reed was involved, but, AFAIK, no one bit.)

But yeah, Sue should have dumped his stretchy ass the moment he sent super-villain 'cape-killers' after herself, her brother and his best friend over a disagreement over something that wasn't even a law yet. And Didio, when asked, in response said that she'd forgive him, because, 'He'll cook her dinner or something.' Yikes.

If anything, the punishment / fallout has disproportionately fallen on Tony, while Reed has more or less skated.

Didio? Don't you mean Quesada?

[XPac]

I vaguely recall a story either during or after the first Civil War where Reed went to 'check his math' with the Mad Thinker, and it was implied that the Mad Thinker kind of conned him into thinking it was a good idea, just to pour gas on the fire to come. It seemed like a sort of 'author saving throw,' to explain why such a smart guy would support such a dumb idea, but at least the writer was trying to half-assedly justify it after-the-fact. (PAD similarly wrote a story at the time where Reed had been replaced by an extra-dimensional brute, and left it wide open as to how long that had been going on, if anyone wanted to pick up on that and use it as an excuse for why Reed was involved, but, AFAIK, no one bit.)

But yeah, Sue should have dumped his stretchy ass the moment he sent super-villain 'cape-killers' after herself, her brother and his best friend over a disagreement over something that wasn't even a law yet. And Didio, when asked, in response said that she'd forgive him, because, 'He'll cook her dinner or something.' Yikes.

If anything, the punishment / fallout has disproportionately fallen on Tony, while Reed has more or less skated.

Reed was written HORRIBLY during this era, and no amount of math on the wall fixes that.

Nova tells Reed an intergalactic war is going on threatening the universe, and Reed sort of shrugs, ignores it, and doesn't bother mentioning it to anyone.

Reed is told the 52 Prison (his idea) is overrun by Blastaar in the Negative Zone, and Reed just sort of locks the door and forgets about it, leaving all the prisoners that he helped put there to their fate. It's freaking Norman Osborn that ends up trying to save them.

In hindsight I wonder if Reed shouldn't have been the freaking skrull instead of Pym.

[Raye]

Coates’ Captain America is dealing with the direct fallout from Secret Empire.

Gamora was never really a villain, in fact, as soon as she got what she wanted she spent the rest of the event trying to right her wrongs.

Uh, no she didn't, she got what she wanted (her soul restored) very early on, then spent the rest of the event trying to destroy the damn universe, and she had to be stopped by other characters in order to prevent that from happening. She said so that it could be rebuilt, but still, it wouldn't need rebuilding without being destroyed in the first place. It was implied she wasn't in her right mind, sure, but still. She got off way too easy. One soul isn't worth destroying the universe.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with the OP, I think if you are going to have a character turn heel, there should be lasting consequences to that, I don't think maintaining status quo should take priority over giving a story a satisfying resolution that has consequences. If you don't want to have a character dealing with those consequences, then don't do something that drastic. Personally, I would still be in favor of these stories being told, I just want the actions taken by the characters to have some meaning in terms of character development.

*edit - to the earlier point about them going to jail, yeah, that is true, a story of them sitting around in jail wouldn't be thrilling beyond an arc or two. But I would be fine with personal level consequences and them dealing with the guilt of them knowing they fucked up. But I'd also like it to be more than a passing handwave, maybe a memory wipe or two, before they go on with their lives as if nothing had happened. I think how they are handling Captain America is fine, though. I was cool with the reveal that Stevil was a new entity, especially since even though it absolutely could have been used as a reset button to allow Steve to go on as if nothing had happened, the original Steve is dealing with fallout from that months after because people have lost some amount of trust in him, regardless of the reveal that it was a doppelganger that took over the country. If he is dealing with fallout from something an evil doppelganger did, why shouldn't characters that legitimately did something awful get off Scott free? Basically I just want these big events and/or decisions to have an impact on the characters going forward, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the legal sense.

[XPac]

Uh, no she didn't, she got what she wanted (her soul restored) very early on, then spent the rest of the event trying to destroy the damn universe, and she had to be stopped by other characters in order to prevent that from happening. She said so that it could be rebuilt, but still, it wouldn't need rebuilding without being destroyed in the first place. It was implied she wasn't in her right mind, sure, but still. She got off way too easy. One soul isn't worth destroying the universe.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with the OP, I think if you are going to have a character turn heel, there should be lasting consequences to that, I don't think maintaining status quo should take priority over giving a story a satisfying resolution that has consequences. If you don't want to have a character dealing with those consequences, then don't do something that drastic. Personally, I would still be in favor of these stories being told, I just want the actions taken by the characters to have some meaning in terms of character development.

I think whether or not they should have long lasting consequences sort of depends on whether or not what they did was actually their fault.

In a lot of instances, Secret Empire for example, there's some sort of outside influence at work which causes the hero to act a certain way. Steve was just as much a victim there as anyone else. That's different from say Stark and Reed in Civil War, who did questionable things completely of their own free will. So they don't necessarily deserve the same free pass.

But if you're possessed by the Phoenix or altered by a cosmic cube or had your Axis flipped or whatever, then I think a story is more justified in giving the hero a free pass sooner rather than later.

[Raye]

I was editing as you were replying, so see above, I agree. I am mostly concerned with characters that, fully in control of their own actions, fucked up. Sometimes with very damaging effects. If they were mind controlled or victim of some kind or Cosmic Cube shenanigans, that does lessen how much they should pay for their actions, but I would still like to see it be acknowledged going forward, like they did with Phoenix for Jean, or they are doing with Cap right now. So I don't think it is something Marvel does universally, they have done it right at times, but it makes the times where they have just swept a character doing something awful under the rug (as happens with most of the Illuminati time and again) immediately afterward stand out more.

[XPac]

I was editing as you were replying, so see above, I agree. I am mostly concerned with characters that, fully in control of their own actions, fucked up. Sometimes with very damaging effects. If they were mind controlled or victim of some kind or Cosmic Cube shenanigans, that does lessen how much they should pay for their actions, but I would still like to see it be acknowledged going forward, like they did with Phoenix for Jean, or they are doing with Cap right now. So I don't think it is something Marvel does universally, they have done it right at times, but it makes the times where they have just swept a character doing something awful under the rug (as happens with most of the Illuminati time and again) immediately afterward stand out more.

It can sometimes can be a bit glaring when things are swept under the rug too quickly.

In Axis for example, the mutants basically took over New York. And it was done very publically for all the world to see. Because it was caused by them being magically inverted, I can't say they DESERVE anu consequences for what happened. But I'm frankly a little shocked that everyone just sort of forgot about it and moved on, when a certain vocal portion of the public pretty much hates mutants anyways. You'd think that would have pushed the anti-mutant stuff to new levels... but no one took the bait. I suppose that's a good thing but still... not what I expected.

[Tycon]

Uh, no she didn't, she got what she wanted (her soul restored) very early on, then spent the rest of the event trying to destroy the damn universe, and she had to be stopped by other characters in order to prevent that from happening. She said so that it could be rebuilt, but still, it wouldn't need rebuilding without being destroyed in the first place. It was implied she wasn't in her right mind, sure, but still. She got off way too easy. One soul isn't worth destroying the universe.

Yes, I just said she got what she wanted. And she knew she had put their lives in danger when she trapped them with Devondra, but it was to rebalance the world of the Soul Stone. So she had to create a new universe and unlock secrets of the universe to help her. Gamers wasn’t about to sacrifice her friends for nothing, she knew if she didn’t do this that Devondra would destroy everything.

[XPac]

The recent Infinity War, Secret Empire and the original Civil War. Each has a hero/heroine acting out and then later on they get off scott free. I mean I would have liked Secret Empire to end with ONE Captain America dealing with himself, his history and his place in the Marvel Universe.

Or have Tony Stark /Iron Man created a back-up data file of the original Civil War so he can remember what he did there.

Or have Gamora Suffer for her actions in Infinity Wars, not have Adam Warlock spirit her away from punishment.

Honestly: What's the point of having heroes be the antagonist if the company is just going to undo things later on ?

Even Reed Richards got off Scott free from Civil War!!

I want an event where Reed Richards suffers from his actions and his truly shunned by his peers and even seeing the YOUNGER GENERATION, not his daughter nor son, but the YOUNGER HEROES rising up and being even smarter than he is. Just one Marvel event with some aftermath that means something and will not be taken back. Is that too much to ask ?

The problem is that the natural consequence for a heroes unlawful actions is for them to go to jail. And you don't necessarily want to tell a story from the inside of a jail cell. It CAN be done (DD did it back in the day), but in most cases that's not the direction you want to take a character.

So they will often have personal consequences, but not legal ones. You can argue they should pay MORE on a personal level than they do... I'd certainly agree with that in regards to Reed and Civil War for example. McDuffie and Millar (not surprisingly in his case) were pretty liberal giving him a free pass. But as far as Steve and Stark go, I think it was about right.

Gamora SHOULD have consequences too.. we'll see where marvel goes with that.

[DigiCom]

I want a Marvel Event where the heroes don't HAVE to suffer for their actions because they did the right thing.

I am sick and tired of story after story of heroes turning evil, being overly flawed, or battling other heroes for moral/ethical reasons.

How about heroes being heroes, for once?