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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Another factor is that there are different ways to create relatability in a hero. Part of what makes Harley Quinn relatable is that she is the abused girlfriend, something too many have experienced themselves or seen with friends. Spiderman has a shitty life as Peter Parker with romantic troubles, self-doubt, and a bad boss.

    Lots of people can identify with characters like those, and thus relate to them. But Diana isn't built like that. The writer has to build her relatability in a different way. And the key to that one is to show Diana relating to other characters around her.

    In the movie, Diana reached out to Chief and listened to him. She asked Sameer about something and listened to him as well. She looked at Charlie, saw something other than a soldier, and told him so, thus setting him on a path of healing. In JLD #6, Tynion had her walk to a despairing Detective Chimp, admit her feelings of guilt to him, and ask him to trust himself like she trusts him. Rucka had her hold Steve Trevor while he cried over his dead teammates. And so on.

    To claim that Diana isn't relatable means that she is examined from a fundamentally egocentric viewpoint.

  2. #47
    Fantastic Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Another factor is that there are different ways to create relatability in a hero. Part of what makes Harley Quinn relatable is that she is the abused girlfriend, something too many have experienced themselves or seen with friends. Spiderman has a shitty life as Peter Parker with romantic troubles, self-doubt, and a bad boss.

    Lots of people can identify with characters like those, and thus relate to them. But Diana isn't built like that. The writer has to build her relatability in a different way. And the key to that one is to show Diana relating to other characters around her.

    In the movie, Diana reached out to Chief and listened to him. She asked Sameer about something and listened to him as well. She looked at Charlie, saw something other than a soldier, and told him so, thus setting him on a path of healing. In JLD #6, Tynion had her walk to a despairing Detective Chimp, admit her feelings of guilt to him, and ask him to trust himself as she trusts him. Rucka had her hold Steve Trevor while he cried over his dead teammates. And so on.

    To claim that Diana isn't relatable means that she is examined from a fundamentally egocentric viewpoint.
    There are so many ways to make relatable like exploring the relationship between Diana and her mother
    Her relationship with her sister Donna and her rival Artemis, Cheetah, Ares
    Her romance with Steve, maybe giving her a Child
    Her relationship with her friends,
    Giving her a secret identity and trying to live as a normal woman to find the troubles ordinary woman faces

    There are so many ways to make her relatable to ordinary people just like Harley Quinn.

  3. #48
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    What's easier for DC to do?:

    A. Gloss over/ retcon Harley's past atrocities and have her be their marketable wacky anti-hero

    Or

    B. Put in the time and effort to make Diana more "relatable" to those who don't already find her so


    Lemme spoil it for ya: it's A, and it's not even close.

    Cards on the table, I utterly despise Harley Quinn. From her initial concept in BTAS to her current unstoppable (and, IMHO, thoroughly misguided) popularity. I'd love for her to just fade away.

    But that ain't happening.

    Hell, Harley's even stolen Diana's pansexual thunder via her on-panel relationship with Poison Ivy (or is that not canon anymore? ... can't keep up).

    And I definitely saw more little girls and grown ladies cosplaying as different versions of Harley Quinn than Wonder Woman at the local comic con I attended last year.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Hell, Harley's even stolen Diana's pansexual thunder via her on-panel relationship with Poison Ivy (or is that not canon anymore? ... can't keep up).
    DC has never done anything on-camera with Diana's sexuality, so it's not like there was anything to steal. Heck, the edgiest they've been going was still back in the 40s!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    What's easier for DC to do?:

    A. Gloss over/ retcon Harley's past atrocities and have her be their marketable wacky anti-hero

    Or

    B. Put in the time and effort to make Diana more "relatable" to those who don't already find her so


    Lemme spoil it for ya: it's A, and it's not even close.

    Cards on the table, I utterly despise Harley Quinn. From her initial concept in BTAS to her current unstoppable (and, IMHO, thoroughly misguided) popularity. I'd love for her to just fade away.

    But that ain't happening.

    Hell, Harley's even stolen Diana's pansexual thunder via her on-panel relationship with Poison Ivy (or is that not canon anymore? ... can't keep up).

    And I definitely saw more little girls and grown ladies cosplaying as different versions of Harley Quinn than Wonder Woman at the local comic con I attended last year.
    Again, Diana's movie was not only better received than Harley's live action debut but made more money. So Diana isn't seen as less relatable than Harley. or if she is, it ultimately doesn't matter. Hell, it's quite telling that Harley often has to rely on other characters like Poison Ivy, the Suicide Squad or Batman himself to bounce off while Diana has been a proven solo act for decades. You're treating Harley's success as Diana's failure.

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, Diana's movie was not only better received than Harley's live action debut but made more money. So Diana isn't seen as less relatable than Harley. or if she is, it ultimately doesn't matter. Hell, it's quite telling that Harley often has to rely on other characters like Poison Ivy, the Suicide Squad or Batman himself to bounce off while Diana has been a proven solo act for decades. You're treating Harley's success as Diana's failure.
    Thats because Suicide Squad did not have a Chinese release otherwise it may have made more than WW like Aquaman.
    Last edited by Geraldofrivia; 01-22-2019 at 07:31 AM.

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Lex Luthor's Avatar
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    Maybe but I don't see why this matters because if Wonder Woman is playing second fiddle to Harley so is every other character on DC. The problem with Wonder Woman isn't about anything else but Wonder Woman. There's no reason it should be this hard to get decent stories for her when characters with less attention can constantly have a good story told in their books.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, Diana's movie was not only better received than Harley's live action debut but made more money. So Diana isn't seen as less relatable than Harley. or if she is, it ultimately doesn't matter. Hell, it's quite telling that Harley often has to rely on other characters like Poison Ivy, the Suicide Squad or Batman himself to bounce off while Diana has been a proven solo act for decades. You're treating Harley's success as Diana's failure.
    Pretty much. Harley doing well really doesn't hurt Diana at all. Especially since Wonder Woman herself supposedly had huge merchandise sales these last two years and her solo movie made more money than a Batman/Superman movie.
    DC, hurry up and make your own version of Marvel Unlimited!

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldofrivia View Post
    Thats because Suicide Squad did not have a Chinese release otherwise it may have made more than WW like Aquaman.
    True. On the other hand, Suicide Squad had without a doubt the more effective—and probably more expensive—marketing campaign. And one can keep bringing up points like that until the cows come home.

    But in the end, I can think no one in their right mind who would claim that Suicide Squad is the better film than Wonder Woman in any way.

  10. #55
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. On the other hand, Suicide Squad had without a doubt the more effective—and probably more expensive—marketing campaign. And one can keep bringing up points like that until the cows come home.

    But in the end, I can think no one in their right mind who would claim that Suicide Squad is the better film than Wonder Woman in any way.

    1000% agree with the bolded.

    Personally, SS was the worst, or least-enjoyable, comic book film I ever sat through. Seriously, I'd sit through a double feature of SUPERMAN IV followed by BATMAN AND ROBIN before I'd ever watch that ... "movie" again.

    WW is Citizen Kane compared to SS.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    WW is Citizen Kane compared to SS.
    No, I can't stretch quite that far. Wonder Woman is Casablanca compared to Suicide Squad.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. On the other hand, Suicide Squad had without a doubt the more effective—and probably more expensive—marketing campaign. And one can keep bringing up points like that until the cows come home.

    But in the end, I can think no one in their right mind who would claim that Suicide Squad is the better film than Wonder Woman in any way.
    Well, I personally feel SS was an ok movie. The theatrical release had two main issues. 1: it was originally written to be boring and dour and the humor was added after the movie was half filmed already. So the tone of the original script isn't the same as the finished movie. It's easy to imagine it'd have worked better if it had been originally written with that tone. 2: the movie was edited to make a finished version, then had several parts cut because it was deemed too long for theatrical release. It's a lot better with them.

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