Is Wonder Woman playing second fiddle to Harley Quinn?

[starlight25]

And that's a major reason right there why the expected creative (print) wave didn't and still hasn't materialized with the movie's success: Wonder Woman has long been a much bigger symbol than an actual consistent character. What she stands for (equality, women's rights, girl power, etc) far outweighs any consistent characterization of her.

She's kinda like Mickey Mouse (who represents nostalgia for childhood), and Harley Quinn is like Donald Duck: one is the bigger symbol and more noble, sure, but lacks the pliable characteristics that makes the other (who is crazier) the bigger go-to for more storytelling. See theDucktales reboot, for example.

Bottom line: I think too many artists are wary of a POTENTIAL backlash if they try anything with Diana, but they have no such fear with Harley Quinn. So they don't try anything, good or bad, with Diana.

And when they do try, all they usually get is criticism anyway.

If I was a professional writer/ penciller (I'm not) and had no preexisting attachment or bias toward either character (spoiler alert: I do and it's WW), then yeah,

Harley would be the preferred assignment because I could do almost anything with her storywise and get a fair shake, whereas working on Diana would seem like too much of a minefield of what would and wouldn't offend her more divisive fanbase.

And all of that is BEFORE you factor in the Batverse branding.

No wonder Harley is winning lately.

Girl power? They have made her weaker, so where is the respect for that?

In the lat 8 years. They have changed her costume 3 times. They made her Zeus's bastard. Turned the amazons into rapists. The downgrade in her power also happened this decade. They made her a warrior with a thin temper that goes stabbing her peers if she gets angry. They made her superman's girlfriend. Then the other woman when he went to his real love lois, the villain of a popular videogame. The one that started a war and killed the world in flashpoint, etc. If anything this proves what fans say. The real problem is that DC keeps changing her, instead of following a clear vision. You can't have consistency the way they handle things with her. And without consistency, you can't expect her to have a comic book reading audience as solid as other characters with decades of solid mythos and origins.

It's impressive all she has achieved with how mismanaged she is.

[Mistah K88]

I do agree with the fact that while they MISMANAGE Wonder Woman greatly to the point she is more of an idea than an actual character, she is still held up to a higher standard than Harley Quinn, which may turn some writers off. They can't get away with "lolsorandom" with Diana, and while she had the "Wonder thong" in the 90's they would be crucified if they were to have her wear that now; yet with Harley they could have her wear something like the "Wonder thong" and people would eat it up.

[daBronzeBomma]

Welp, Harley Quinn may be getting her own trilogy of solo movies starring Margot Robbie.

I mean, I personally think that SUICIDE SQUAD was a considerably worse film than JUSTICE LEAGUE from start to finish, but DCE disagrees obviously.

Has there been any talk of a WW trilogy by Jenkins yet? Weird that Harley may get a planned trilogy of solo flicks while Diana gets the one step at a time treatment.

[Agent Z]

Welp, Harley Quinn may be getting her own trilogy of solo movies starring Margot Robbie.

I mean, I personally think that SUICIDE SQUAD was a considerably worse film than JUSTICE LEAGUE from start to finish, but DCE disagrees obviously.

Has there been any talk of a WW trilogy by Jenkins yet? Weird that Harley may get a planned trilogy of solo flicks while Diana gets the one step at a time treatment.

Let's see if any of those Harley movies see the light of day first.

[daBronzeBomma]

Actually, nvm about this.

Quick re-read shows that the planned trilogy (at this stage) would be:

Movie 1. BIRDS OF PREY

Movie 2. GOTHAM CITY SIRENS

Movie 3. BIRDS OF PREY VS. GOTHAM CITY SIRENS

So, basically, lumping almost all of the female "badass normals" and the female low-level metahumans into one catch-all project, with Harley Quinn at the center of it all.

This certainly doesn't look like the potential juggernaut I thought it could be.

But then again, I never would have predicted VENOM being so successful in both domestic and international markets, so who knows?

Maybe this trilogy WILL outgross WW's films when all is said and done ...

[starlight25]

Actually, nvm about this.

Quick re-read shows that the planned trilogy (at this stage) would be:

Movie 1. BIRDS OF PREY

Movie 2. GOTHAM CITY SIRENS

Movie 3. BIRDS OF PREY VS. GOTHAM CITY SIRENS

So, basically, lumping almost all of the female "badass normals" and the female low-level metahumans into one catch-all project, with Harley Quinn at the center of it all.

This certainly doesn't look like the potential juggernaut I thought it could be.

But then again, I never would have predicted VENOM being so successful in both domestic and international markets, so who knows?

Maybe this trilogy WILL outgross WW's films when all is said and done ...

And this is supposed to prove what? Wonder Woman already has a legit big hit at the box office on her own.

We are predicting others to do better than all WW movies with no proof, and despite the fact WW hasn't had more than one movie yet to even compare her to another franchise that hasn't even had one movie out yet. But we can already preditc that a supposed birds of pray trilogy will do better?

[Ichijinijisanji]

Harley seems to have resonated with readers and audiences in a way wonder-woman hasn't.

Diana appears more symbolic, while harley quinn has that cycle of abuse and breaking off angle thing going so it has that essence of experiencing real stuff women go through with and overcoming them

there's also the fun factor

[starlight25]

Harley seems to have resonated with readers and audiences in a way wonder-woman hasn't.

Diana appears more symbolic, while harley quinn has that cycle of abuse and breaking off angle thing going so it has that essence of experiencing real stuff women go through with and overcoming them

there's also the fun factor

Wonde Woman 2017 doesn't agree.

And comic wise. If DC tried to respect her mythos instead of rebooting all the time. If they'd give her more to do in team comics and treated her villains right. Then she'd have a more consisten base of readers.

[marhawkman]

I do agree with the fact that while they MISMANAGE Wonder Woman greatly to the point she is more of an idea than an actual character, she is still held up to a higher standard than Harley Quinn, which may turn some writers off. They can't get away with "lolsorandom" with Diana, and while she had the "Wonder thong" in the 90's they would be crucified if they were to have her wear that now; yet with Harley they could have her wear something like the "Wonder thong" and people would eat it up.

Well, as an amateur writer I find it challenging to actually write a character that has a long history simply because that reduces creative freedom. In Harley's case "out of character" is less of an issue since she has an erratic personality to start with. WW's personality is well defined, and rather boring in most stories.

Harley seems to have resonated with readers and audiences in a way wonder-woman hasn't.

Diana appears more symbolic, while harley quinn has that cycle of abuse and breaking off angle thing going so it has that essence of experiencing real stuff women go through with and overcoming them

there's also the fun factor

It's a variant of the classic Superman problem. How do you write a character where their actions are simultaneously far outside what most people experience AND relatable in a way that people understand and empathize with? In WW's case her culture and personality are alien to the way most people feel and live. She's MORE alien than Superman in many ways.

[starlight25]

Well, as an amateur writer I find it challenging to actually write a character that has a long history simply because that reduces creative freedom. In Harley's case "out of character" is less of an issue since she has an erratic personality to start with. WW's personality is well defined, and rather boring in most stories.It's a variant of the classic Superman problem. How do you write a character where their actions are simultaneously far outside what most people experience AND relatable in a way that people understand and empathize with? In WW's case her culture and personality are alien to the way most people feel and live. She's MORE alien than Superman in many ways.

The relatable thing is just an overrated and weak excuse imo. Wonder Woman has had enough success to prove that audiences have resonated with her many times. Not every character must go through hell or have tragedies to be validated as a hero. Saving the day like a hero is supposed to should be good enough. And when you get into her story, it's not like her life is lacking obstacles and problems she must deal with.

[marhawkman]

The relatable thing is just an overrated and weak excuse imo. Wonder Woman has had enough success to prove that audiences have resonated wuth her many times. Not every character must go through hell or have tragedies to be validated as a hero. Saving the day like a hero is supposed to should be good enough. And when you get into her story, it's not like her life is lacking obstacles and problems she must deal with.

Likeable and relatable are two very different things. Can you relate to waking up one day to find a teenage girl trying to kill you even though you've never met her before?

I'm guessing no. It's something that is a common trope in superhero books but more so in WW since most of her villains are people she'd barely met before having to fight them.

Sure, it makes for an interesting story, but I can't really say for sure what I'd do in that scenario since I've never been there. Harley... lots of things outside normal life happen to her, but they're not as far outside normal. I CAN relate to someone deciding they need me to help them with something that turns out to take an entire week and require me to be away from home all that time.

[Agent Z]

Relatable is subjective. One person's experience is not universal. There are things some people can find relatable in Harley and things people find relatable in Diana.

What's funny is that the one of the problems people find Diana suffers from (inconsistency) also very much applies to Harley.

[starlight25]

Likeable and relatable are two very different things. Can you relate to waking up one day to find a teenage girl trying to kill you even though you've never met her before?

I'm guessing no. It's something that is a common trope in superhero books but more so in WW since most of her villains are people she'd barely met before having to fight them.

Sure, it makes for an interesting story, but I can't really say for sure what I'd do in that scenario since I've never been there. Harley... lots of things outside normal life happen to her, but they're not as far outside normal. I CAN relate to someone deciding they need me to help them with something that turns out to take an entire week and require me to be away from home all that time.

People like Cheetah, Circe, Ares, etc do have reasons to fight WW. And many of her villains have psychological problems. They don't need to meet her. They just project through her. Magnicide does exist you know.

[Agent Z]

Likeable and relatable are two very different things. Can you relate to waking up one day to find a teenage girl trying to kill you even though you've never met her before?

I'm guessing no. It's something that is a common trope in superhero books but more so in WW since most of her villains are people she'd barely met before having to fight them.

Sure, it makes for an interesting story, but I can't really say for sure what I'd do in that scenario since I've never been there. Harley... lots of things outside normal life happen to her, but they're not as far outside normal. I CAN relate to someone deciding they need me to help them with something that turns out to take an entire week and require me to be away from home all that time.

That's literally every superhero's gallery of rogues. Diana does not stand out in that regard.

[kjn]

The relatable thing is just an overrated and weak excuse imo. Wonder Woman has had enough success to prove that audiences have resonated wuth her many times. Not every character must go through hell or have tragedies to be validated as a hero. Saving the day like a hero is supposed to should be good enough. And when you get into her story, it's not like her life is lacking obstacles and problems she must deal with.

Add to that that there is another angle at this, that is that Wonder Woman is an aspirational hero, just as Superman is. This was something that Patty Jenkins understood, while I'd argue that Zack Snyder didn't. Wonder Woman in part gains its strength because it is a fantasy of freedom from patriarchy. You can still include elements and traits that are focused on relatability, but do too much and you destroy the very core of what makes the character popular.