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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    She beat Tim easily, in his own aniversary book.
    Ah yes Tim’s 75th anniversary book. I remember that well.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Ah yes Tim’s 75th anniversary book. I remember that well.
    This pedantic, intellectually dishonest and frankly butthurt tone is really amusing. Have to wonder why theres so much salt in this forum.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    This pedantic, intellectually dishonest and frankly butthurt tone is really amusing. Have to wonder why theres so much salt in this forum.
    You're right. Carry on with whatever positive, productive thing you were saying about Harper.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 01-15-2019 at 05:45 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    This pedantic, intellectually dishonest and frankly butthurt tone is really amusing. Have to wonder why theres so much salt in this forum.
    I don't get it either. There's a lot of exaggeration and misinformation also. I don't get why making her good at things is a bad thing. I'm not sure why the answer is to make her not good at things and be the assistant to the butler, or an assistant in other forms. There's a "No Girls in the Clubhouse" vibe imo. Not liking her or wanting to read about her is one thing but some of this seems way beyond that and I'm wondering why.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Not liking her or wanting to read about her is one thing but some of this seems way beyond that and I'm wondering why.
    Mostly because she was used to make characters i like look bad and out of character, but also because the character hijacked what was suposed to be a celebration of said characters. She is a symbol of everything that was wrong with the new 52.

    On to the topic at hand. To bring her back i guess you have to ask yourself how the character could contribute to the story of any other character or what kind of story you could tell about this one that you cant with other characters.

    I never really cared for her relationship to either cassandra or stephanie, it always felt like they got along because they were similar age and female.

    I guess you could do something blue bettle related with her, her technical knowhow would make her a good support character there. Would take her to a different corner of the DCU where she could have a fresh start more or less.
    Last edited by Mataza; 01-15-2019 at 07:32 PM.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I thought I read somewhere that she might be popping up in YJ. If anyone could find a way to make her work, it'd probably be Weisman.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Ah yes Tim’s 75th anniversary book. I remember that well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    This pedantic, intellectually dishonest and frankly butthurt tone is really amusing. Have to wonder why theres so much salt in this forum.
    Oh come on, that was a good one.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I don't get it either. There's a lot of exaggeration and misinformation also. I don't get why making her good at things is a bad thing. I'm not sure why the answer is to make her not good at things and be the assistant to the butler, or an assistant in other forms. There's a "No Girls in the Clubhouse" vibe imo. Not liking her or wanting to read about her is one thing but some of this seems way beyond that and I'm wondering why.
    Should this be changed to a Harper Row Appreciation Site?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I don't get it either. There's a lot of exaggeration and misinformation also. I don't get why making her good at things is a bad thing. I'm not sure why the answer is to make her not good at things and be the assistant to the butler, or an assistant in other forms. There's a "No Girls in the Clubhouse" vibe imo. Not liking her or wanting to read about her is one thing but some of this seems way beyond that and I'm wondering why.
    When I started this thread, I had a counter for how many days it's been since Harper Row last showed up or was mentioned in comics; as of today, it's been 493 days (Detective Comics 964). I started reading Batman when the New 52 started, and she's one of my favourite characters. I don't want her to fall into irrelevancy. I think she could have amazing stories, but I think DC is leery of using her after fan backlash. It's been over a year, surely it's time to try again?

    As long as the writer doesn't make a central character an accessory to her, like in Batman and Robin Eternal I know that she can win people over. No she can't be good at everything, but she's can't be awful at everything. It's a balance, it's makes room for personal growth and development. If I'm being honest, I think Harper could've been better developed in Snyder and Capullo's Superheavy arc instead of making Commissioner Gordon into Batman. Could've never known who was Batman, focused on Harper's (and Gotham's) relationship with Batman post Endgame, and make her acknowledge that Batman is more than just a symbol, make her admit that Batman's more than that.
    I am currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Catwoman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, The Batman Who Laughs, Doomsday Clock, Sideways, Ms. Marvel, and Thor.

    In time I hope to read Red Hood and The Outlaws, Batman and The Outsiders, and Young Justice.

  10. #70
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    When I started this thread, I had a counter for how many days it's been since Harper Row last showed up or was mentioned in comics; as of today, it's been 493 days (Detective Comics 964). I started reading Batman when the New 52 started, and she's one of my favourite characters. I don't want her to fall into irrelevancy. I think she could have amazing stories, but I think DC is leery of using her after fan backlash. It's been over a year, surely it's time to try again?
    She's been in Detective more recently than that, surely? She showed up a few times in Tynion's run, that was less than a year ago wasn't it?

    Gods, has it been over a year already since then? No, it cant be?
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  11. #71
    Also goes by Westbats Westbats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    She's been in Detective more recently than that, surely? She showed up a few times in Tynion's run, that was less than a year ago wasn't it?

    Gods, has it been over a year already since then? No, it cant be?
    Unfortunately, no. Last time she showed up she was in Anarky's underground utopia setting up electricity. There was a short, purple haired woman dancing in Wayne Manor at the victory party in Dark Knights Metal 06, but considering that there were so many heroes out of uniform I'd say that wasn't her.

    Tynion's last issue was May 23rd, and if I'm honest I found the ending to be a bit lacklustre, with a lot of implied future storylines getting changed (which could be a thread onto itself).
    I am currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Catwoman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, The Batman Who Laughs, Doomsday Clock, Sideways, Ms. Marvel, and Thor.

    In time I hope to read Red Hood and The Outlaws, Batman and The Outsiders, and Young Justice.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    When I started this thread, I had a counter for how many days it's been since Harper Row last showed up or was mentioned in comics; as of today, it's been 493 days (Detective Comics 964). I started reading Batman when the New 52 started, and she's one of my favourite characters. I don't want her to fall into irrelevancy. I think she could have amazing stories, but I think DC is leery of using her after fan backlash. It's been over a year, surely it's time to try again?

    As long as the writer doesn't make a central character an accessory to her, like in Batman and Robin Eternal I know that she can win people over. No she can't be good at everything, but she's can't be awful at everything. It's a balance, it's makes room for personal growth and development. If I'm being honest, I think Harper could've been better developed in Snyder and Capullo's Superheavy arc instead of making Commissioner Gordon into Batman. Could've never known who was Batman, focused on Harper's (and Gotham's) relationship with Batman post Endgame, and make her acknowledge that Batman is more than just a symbol, make her admit that Batman's more than that.
    I think the fan backlash was overstated. As always a small vocal section of fandom made a lot of noise but plenty of people liked her just fine.
    It's odd to me that people didn't like how skilled she was considering this is the same group that has Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake, Damian, etc. Being really good at things is kind of a requirement for membership. She came on strong but that makes sense to me. I don't know why you would introduce a character in a lackluster fashion and have her be clearly inferior to everyone else. But I don't really get into or care for the who's smarter/stronger/faster stuff so my that could be why I feel that way. I want everyone to shine and be awesome.

    I like your idea for the Superheavy arc. That could have worked. The good news imo is that there's really no limit to where they can go with her from here. She has enough character and personality to go in a lot of different directions. I'd love to see Simone get a chance to write her. I think Wilson could go a great job too. Or Orlando, I think he could go a little darker with her (her setting and stories, not her personality). Really there's a lot of DC writers I'd like to see write her... anyone besides the Abnett/Jurgens/Tomasi/etc crowd, really.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I think the fan backlash was overstated. As always a small vocal section of fandom made a lot of noise but plenty of people liked her just fine.
    It's odd to me that people didn't like how skilled she was considering this is the same group that has Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake, Damian, etc. Being really good at things is kind of a requirement for membership. She came on strong but that makes sense to me. I don't know why you would introduce a character in a lackluster fashion and have her be clearly inferior to everyone else. But I don't really get into or care for the who's smarter/stronger/faster stuff so my that could be why I feel that way. I want everyone to shine and be awesome.

    I like your idea for the Superheavy arc. That could have worked. The good news imo is that there's really no limit to where they can go with her from here. She has enough character and personality to go in a lot of different directions. I'd love to see Simone get a chance to write her. I think Wilson could go a great job too. Or Orlando, I think he could go a little darker with her (her setting and stories, not her personality). Really there's a lot of DC writers I'd like to see write her... anyone besides the Abnett/Jurgens/Tomasi/etc crowd, really.
    No, that fan backlash was not overstated. Maybe a bit understated, considering how Batman and Robin Eternal hemorrhaged readers and reviewers and there wasn't even the typical bounce associated with Damian's appearance. It's fascinating to go look at the archives of fandom blogs, tumblrs, and comic reviewers that started out liking Harper and ended up loathing her. Attempting to make her Robin, saying she was a better choice that any of the others, erasing and downgrading her relationship with Cullen (her twin brother), giving her the same skill sets as Tim sans training, emphasis on her not being trained at all, giving her the key components of Stephanie, in particular Steph's relationship with Cass, and having take over what should have been a celebration of the Robins past and present, being referred to as a child despite being 17 and the current Robin was 10/11 at the time and treated as an adult, all of those things raised the ire of fans, even the ones who initially liked her.

    Maybe Bendis can bring her back. No other writer would be confident enough in their fan base to risk the backlash of writing a character like her.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    No, that fan backlash was not overstated. Maybe a bit understated, considering how Batman and Robin Eternal hemorrhaged readers and reviewers and there wasn't even the typical bounce associated with Damian's appearance. It's fascinating to go look at the archives of fandom blogs, tumblrs, and comic reviewers that started out liking Harper and ended up loathing her. Attempting to make her Robin, saying she was a better choice that any of the others, erasing and downgrading her relationship with Cullen (her twin brother), giving her the same skill sets as Tim sans training, emphasis on her not being trained at all, giving her the key components of Stephanie, in particular Steph's relationship with Cass, and having take over what should have been a celebration of the Robins past and present, being referred to as a child despite being 17 and the current Robin was 10/11 at the time and treated as an adult, all of those things raised the ire of fans, even the ones who initially liked her.

    Maybe Bendis can bring her back. No other writer would be confident enough in their fan base to risk the backlash of writing a character like her.
    It was way overblown in my experience. In real life most of the people I talked about her with were taking a wait and see approach. Some really liked her from the jump and some really despised her immediately. I just see such a disconnect from online response and real world response on a daily basis. If I go by the online response I almost invariably get a drastically more negative response than I get in the real world. As random examples look at the Thor and Batman threads. In real life Aaron and King are in the midst of hugely successful runs, both critically and commercially.They have both been selling tons of comics and winning awards for years. But on the CBR forums a relatively small number of repeat posters make it seem like everyone hates those runs. Have you ever looked at how many people actually post here? There's a few hundred really active posters on each major forum. Compare that to the tens of thousands of people who buy the book once or twice a month and like it just fine. Or to make another real life comparison, anyone who works with the public knows that you can have hundreds of perfectly happy customers in a day but the one customer who isn't happy will make a negative post.
    I say those things to show why I feel that the negative reaction was overblown, not that people were wrong to feel however they felt. I'm not saying those who didn't like her are wrong; people can like or not like what ever they want, of course. My point is, I'm just saying that the level of hate was not nearly as high as some make it out to be.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    It was way overblown in my experience.
    Nope, it was pretty justified.

    Also what is it with people bringing up awards? why would you care about what a paid shill has to say about anything? The character was crap and the book she in was frustrating and offensive to anyone with any vested interest in the other characters, mainly because of her.
    Last edited by Mataza; 01-21-2019 at 06:03 PM.

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