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  1. #196
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    From Christopher Priest's blog:http://lamerciepark.com/wp/?p=579



    When Lazarus Contract did show flashbacks to Ravager fighting the Teen Titans, it was the New 52 "Titans Hunt" versions - with Speedy, Aqualad and Lilith there.
    I think DC stopped caring about good storytelling, continuity just happened to go out the window with it.
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  2. #197
    Fantastic Member Colt Cape's Avatar
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    I'm only reading this for Jinny Hex and Amethyst. Hope they get some focus.
    DC, please give Jonah Hex a new solo.

  3. #198
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    I re-read this, and I really enjoyed it. Can't wait to find out what's up with Wonder Girl and the origin of the Teen Lantern. I think if it does well, they could maybe have a mini-series that bridges the end of Tynions Detective run up to YJ #1 that explains what Tim was up to, the change back to Robin and how he and Bart met up.
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  4. #199
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Btw... I read the Multiversity article from the Legion thread, and had to find a thread this would be most appropriate. ..

    Didio's reaction to Bendis when he proposed the Wonder Twins is a display of just what kind of opposition these characters have.
    It reminded me of his reported reaction to Marv Wolfman's Convergence Titans.

    Regardless of readers thoughts of Bendis and/or his work, he's got to power right now to push things out that otherwise would be blocked.
    He probably has more pull at DC than Johns right now.
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  5. #200
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Plus, a lot of what you point to as proof isn't all that definitive. Comic book characters rarely maintain the physical scars of the events that happen to them, so who's to say Rose didn't undergo an experimental procedure to replace her eye the same way that Babs did to recover from being paralyzed for years? Same thing goes for death, so who's to say that Terra didn't die at some point and come back as a Black Lantern (since we know that Blackest Night happened) and then was simply revived?
    It is from the creators own words. Priest said that the old JC story couldn't have happened so he had to write the LC story instead which was with a Titans team that was different from the original JC story team. This all happened post Rebirth. If what you said about bringing back pre-Flashpoint continuity and stories back was completely true then he wouldn't have had to write LC in the first place. It is like this for many parts of the current DCU. We aren't back in some pre-Flashpoint continuity and I believe we are still mostly in the New 52/DC YOU continuity for many properties that was build before Rebirth.

    Things like Jason getting his post Crisis origin back happened before Rebirth. Where it was him stealing the Batmobile tire instead of stealing the medicine. So it isn't like strict 5 year continuity at the start of the reboot with all the new stories was what the continuity was. Lobdell said his entire Outlaws run is still in continuity. But the stories that happened since the New 52 to Rebirth for many characters are what current stories are still getting built on it, like in Nightwing, Titans, Outlaws, Batgirl, Green Arrow, and many more. Of course during that time there were retcons and changes made but it wasn't flat out bringing the old pre-Flashpoint continuity back. In cases like Blue Beetle referencing being shot it might be a case where a version of that happened in the new continuity but it isn't flat out bringing back pre-Flashpoint continuity. Just like how Johns said Death of Superman happened in his 2014 Superman run, but it was likely a New 52 Death of Superman story rather than the 90s version happening exactly like it did. That is where the confusion comes in. Trying to say old stories happened but formatting them to fit in the current continuity.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    It is from the creators own words. Priest said that the old JC story couldn't have happened so he had to write the LC story instead which was with a Titans team that was different from the original JC story team. This all happened post Rebirth. If what you said about bringing back pre-Flashpoint continuity and stories back was completely true then he wouldn't have had to write LC in the first place. It is like this for many parts of the current DCU. We aren't back in some pre-Flashpoint continuity and I believe we are still mostly in the New 52/DC YOU continuity for many properties that was build before Rebirth.
    Actually, this is what Priest said:

    But the old continuity was just a mess. Cyborg was never a Titan. Starfire, Raven– it was terribly difficult to sort all of that out. My preference was to not bother; just show blocks of the original story with the original cast without explaining why Cyborg is now a founding member of the Justice League and never a Titan...

    Ultimately, because of the varying events both past and upcoming, it proved impossible to do the JJ thing, so editor Antone came up with the next best thing. “Lazarus…” walks right up to the Judas Contract and knocks on the door, but we don’t fully go there because, honestly, we couldn’t. Yet. Stay tuned...
    So, yes, those flashbacks are meant to at least invoke the original story. They're meant to show that Terra's betrayal of the team still happened, with some slight tweaks.

    Things like Jason getting his post Crisis origin back happened before Rebirth. Where it was him stealing the Batmobile tire instead of stealing the medicine. So it isn't like strict 5 year continuity at the start of the reboot with all the new stories was what the continuity was. Lobdell said his entire Outlaws run is still in continuity. But the stories that happened since the New 52 to Rebirth for many characters are what current stories are still getting built on it, like in Nightwing, Titans, Outlaws, Batgirl, Green Arrow, and many more. Of course during that time there were retcons and changes made but it wasn't flat out bringing the old pre-Flashpoint continuity back. In cases like Blue Beetle referencing being shot it might be a case where a version of that happened in the new continuity but it isn't flat out bringing back pre-Flashpoint continuity. Just like how Johns said Death of Superman happened in his 2014 Superman run, but it was likely a New 52 Death of Superman story rather than the 90s version happening exactly like it did. That is where the confusion comes in. Trying to say old stories happened but formatting them to fit in the current continuity.
    I don't remember seeing Jason Todd's origin reinstated before Rebirth. And again, how many times do I have to say that nobody is saying that New 52 elements or even plot developments are no longer canon? However, its still wrong to say that the current continuity is the New 52 continuity. We've seen too much stuff straight up contradict the New 52 to say that.

    Look at Deathstroke's series, where Slade's origin was changed back in contradiction of his New 52 origin. Look at Tim Drake, who was never a Robin in New 52 continuity, but then was given his Pre-FP origin and time as Robin back in a Lonely Place of Living. Look at Superman, whose love interest in the New 52 was Wonder Woman, but who is now once again married to Lois Lane and who has had almost all of his New 52 adventures written out of continuity. Look at Wonder Woman. Look at Batman, whose origin has heavily been implied to have changed back to Year One. And even look at this issue of Young Justice, where its shown that Tim, Bart, Conner, and Cassie were all apparently on a Young Justice team together when Lobdell's New 52 Teen Titans series introduced them all as strangers to each other.

    So, no, this continuity is neither 100% New 52 nor is it 100% Pre-Flashpoint (at least not yet). This is the Rebirth continuity.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-16-2019 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #202
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Actually, this is what Priest said:

    So, yes, those flashbacks are meant to at least invoke the original story. They're meant to show that Terra's betrayal of the team still happened, with some slight tweaks.
    It isn't "some tweaks" though. He literally said he couldn't use JC. This is the New 52/DC YOU version of what the JC story was with the New 52/DC YOU version of Dick's Titans team. That is the whole point of the LC story in the first place which is very different to the original JC story. That has been my whole point. They are still building on the continuity that was set up from the New 52/DC YOU version of the characters and continuity. Not the pre-Flashpoint characters. It is like that for many franchises and characters still despite everything that happened with Superman. The fact that they are still using this continuity as as foundation and continuing to build stories on it has been my main argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I don't remember seeing Jason Todd's origin reinstated before Rebirth. And again, how many times do I have to say that nobody is saying that New 52 elements or even plot developments are no longer canon? However, its still wrong to say that the current continuity is the New 52 continuity. We've seen too much stuff straight up contradict the New 52 to say that.

    Look at Deathstroke's series, where Slade's origin was changed back in contradiction of his New 52 origin. Look at Tim Drake, who was never a Robin in New 52 continuity, but then was given his Pre-FP origin and time as Robin back in a Lonely Place of Living. Look at Superman, whose love interest in the New 52 was Wonder Woman, but who is now once again married to Lois Lane and who has had almost all of his New 52 adventures written out of continuity. Look at Wonder Woman. Look at Batman, whose origin has heavily been implied to have changed back to Year One. And even look at this issue of Young Justice, where its shown that Tim, Bart, Conner, and Cassie were all apparently on a Young Justice team together when Lobdell's New 52 Teen Titans series introduced them all as strangers to each other.

    So, no, this continuity is neither 100% New 52 nor is it 100% Pre-Flashpoint (at least not yet). This is the Rebirth continuity.
    You keep bringing up Superman and Wonder Woman but those had their foundations completely rebooted with Rebirth. Very specifically rebooted from the ground up. That is very different to the franchises and characters I am talking about. Nothing about this Young Justice issue says the New 52 Teen Titans didn't happen. Lobdell even used Bunker in his recent Outlaws issue with Jason referencing when his team and Bunker and the Titans teamed up. The Conner and Bart characters here are very different from the New 52 versions which might be completely different characters. You can even do what Abnett did with Dick's Titans and have it so that Tim and Cassie just had their memories of being on a previous YJ team erased but that there was a New 52/DC YOU continuity YJ team that they were all on before, but only this new Conner and Bart remember the old YJ team.

  8. #203
    Scarlet and Proud! Star_Jammer's Avatar
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    I have no attachment to these characters other than trying to like them at various points, and man...it felt like Bendis was trying to throw in everything plus the kitchen sink.

    I'll give this the standard "at least the first arc", and hope that I can read about Superboy (Conner) if that doesn't work out.
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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    It isn't "some tweaks" though. He literally said he couldn't use JC. This is the New 52/DC YOU version of what the JC story was with the New 52/DC YOU version of Dick's Titans team. That is the whole point of the LC story in the first place which is very different to the original JC story. That has been my whole point...
    Except YOU said that JC just didn't happen at all, whereas Priest himself didn't say that. He said he couldn't use certain parts of JC but does come right up on the cusp of acknowledging it. What he does do though is actually give us flashbacks to parts of the original story that definitely imply that it or at least significant parts of it did happen in continuity. Lazarus Contract does not retell the story of Terra betraying the team in a New 52 context. In fact, I don't really remember seeing Terra in the Lazarus Contract arc. Lazarus Contract pretty much deals with something else and then Deathstroke #27 is the first time the actual events of JC are addressed and it leaves everything else vague for fans to speculate on how JC could have happened...because, in his own words, continuity is a mess.

    And at the same time, though, it was not built on the New 52, because in the New 52, Deathstroke's entire origin and the status of Grant Wilson was entirely different. LC rests on the very premise that Grant Wilson's Pre-Flashpoint arc of dying while fighting the Titans is reinstated into continuity when that in fact wasn't in New 52 continuity. Even Abnett said that the events of Deathstroke's first meeting with the Titans were "essentially the same" as Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans #2. Therefore, it cannot be built on New 52 continuity. Its built instead on Rebirth's leaking of Pre-Flashpoint events back into continuity (i.e. Rebirth continuity).

    You keep bringing up Superman and Wonder Woman but those had their foundations completely rebooted with Rebirth. Very specifically rebooted from the ground up. That is very different to the franchises and characters I am talking about.
    And do you not think that Superman and Wonder Woman being completely rewritten in terms of their continuity along more Pre-Flashpoint lines (and abandoning the New 52 iterations) is enough to say that we are no longer in the New 52?? After all, Superman and Wonder Woman are top-tier characters who pretty much impact the rest of the DCU.

    Nothing about this Young Justice issue says the New 52 Teen Titans didn't happen. Lobdell even used Bunker in his recent Outlaws issue with Jason referencing when his team and Bunker and the Titans teamed up. The Conner and Bart characters here are very different from the New 52 versions which might be completely different characters. You can even do what Abnett did with Dick's Titans and have it so that Tim and Cassie just had their memories of being on a previous YJ team erased but that there was a New 52/DC YOU continuity YJ team that they were all on before, but only this new Conner and Bart remember the old YJ team.
    Because Bart literally just says "Young Justice is back"?? Because DC hasn't announced a "Young Justice Hunt" miniseries (at least not yet). In the New 52, they didn't know each other before they were on the Teen Titans together. That, plus the fact that the "Bart" and "Kon-El" in that series weren't even really Bart or Conner and that Tim was later shown not to know who Conner was and now all of a sudden does. I don't know if we're going to get a New 52/Titans Hunt-style version of Young Justice since Titans Hunt itself was planned when the New 52 was still a thing, but like so many have said, we are no longer in New 52 continuity. I doubt they want to retread that when they can simply just do what they've been doing across the line since Rebirth began: just reference Pre-FP events as if they happened and leave it at that. Bendis pretty much writes like New 52 didn't even happen anyway. So, why should I do mental gymnastics to try and make an entirely new version of the YJ team when I can simply say that parts or maybe even all of the original series is canon??
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-16-2019 at 10:08 PM.

  10. #205
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    Damn lol. Why is everyone going through hoops to validate the New 52 TT?

  11. #206
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    I'm still giving Bendis an arm's reach approach but I did read the issue. I liked it in a chaotic first part of a larger story sense. Jinny seems ok and Cassie's situation alongside Superboy have brought my interest.

    As for continuity...I'll slowly think about it a step at a time.
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  12. #207
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Finally got to read this yesterday and I really enjoyed it. I am mainly interested in Bart and I hope he gets a larger role, but it was nice to see Tim as well. Jinny Hex seems like she will be an interesting character and will fit in nicely. Looking forward to the next issue.
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  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except YOU said that JC just didn't happen at all, whereas Priest himself didn't say that. He said he couldn't use certain parts of JC but does come right up on the cusp of acknowledging it. What he does do though is actually give us flashbacks to parts of the original story that definitely imply that it or at least significant parts of it did happen in continuity. Lazarus Contract does not retell the story of Terra betraying the team in a New 52 context. In fact, I don't really remember seeing Terra in the Lazarus Contract arc. Lazarus Contract pretty much deals with something else and then Deathstroke #27 is the first time the actual events of JC are addressed and it leaves everything else vague for fans to speculate on how JC could have happened...because, in his own words, continuity is a mess.

    And at the same time, though, it was not built on the New 52, because in the New 52, Deathstroke's entire origin and the status of Grant Wilson was entirely different. LC rests on the very premise that Grant Wilson's Pre-Flashpoint arc of dying while fighting the Titans is reinstated into continuity when that in fact wasn't in New 52 continuity. Even Abnett said that the events of Deathstroke's first meeting with the Titans were "essentially the same" as Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans #2. Therefore, it cannot be built on New 52 continuity. Its built instead on Rebirth's leaking of Pre-Flashpoint events back into continuity (i.e. Rebirth continuity).



    And do you not think that Superman and Wonder Woman being completely rewritten in terms of their continuity along more Pre-Flashpoint lines (and abandoning the New 52 iterations) is enough to say that we are no longer in the New 52?? After all, Superman and Wonder Woman are top-tier characters who pretty much impact the rest of the DCU.



    Because Bart literally just says "Young Justice is back"?? Because DC hasn't announced a "Young Justice Hunt" miniseries (at least not yet). In the New 52, they didn't know each other before they were on the Teen Titans together. That, plus the fact that the "Bart" and "Kon-El" in that series weren't even really Bart or Conner and that Tim was later shown not to know who Conner was and now all of a sudden does. I don't know if we're going to get a New 52/Titans Hunt-style version of Young Justice since Titans Hunt itself was planned when the New 52 was still a thing, but like so many have said, we are no longer in New 52 continuity. I doubt they want to retread that when they can simply just do what they've been doing across the line since Rebirth began: just reference Pre-FP events as if they happened and leave it at that. Bendis pretty much writes like New 52 didn't even happen anyway. So, why should I do mental gymnastics to try and make an entirely new version of the YJ team when I can simply say that parts or maybe even all of the original series is canon??
    Tim never addresses or talks about Kon in this #1. Only Bart does. What is this nonsense about Tim "suddenly remembering" anything here? He only interacted with Bart (which is what he called Bar Tor) and Cassie (who seems to be the same Cassie, just drawn differently) from memory.

    We certainly do have plenty of new 52 continuity still kicking about. Bart's return itself is born out of a series of things spiraling out of New 52 continuity. The New 52 is the biggest chunk of the background continuity of DC, even if other things are making their way back in. Maybe Bendis will ignore everything and just act like PADYJ still happened, but I doubt it'll be so simple.

    As a matter of fact, I'd state just the opposite. When Bart introduces himself, he does so as Impulse -- but the people there don't recognize that. If YJ still happened then people would know who Impulse is. They DO recognize Kid Flash -- and while Wallace has been around as Kid Flash recently, Bart definitely more resembles Bar Torr's horrible self appearance wise.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-17-2019 at 03:43 AM.

  14. #209
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    Screenshot_20190117-053954.jpg

    I don't know what Bendis was replying to as the quoted tweet seemed to have been unavailable.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Tim never addresses or talks about Kon in this #1. Only Bart does. What is this nonsense about Tim "suddenly remembering" anything here? He only interacted with Bart (which is what he called Bar Tor) and Cassie (who seems to be the same Cassie, just drawn differently) from memory.
    Tim literally mentions Conner by name. Its when they all enter the portal. Tim says "not without Conner."

    We certainly do have plenty of new 52 continuity still kicking about. Bart's return itself is born out of a series of things spiraling out of New 52 continuity.
    Actually, I wouldn't sat that because Bart's return spirals out of a Rebirth storyline: Flash War. And Bart himself looks to harbor Pre-Flashpoint memories and his return has apparently allowed more Pre-FP continuity to trickle into the time stream.

    The New 52 is the biggest chunk of the background continuity of DC, even if other things are making their way back in. Maybe Bendis will ignore everything and just act like PADYJ still happened, but I doubt it'll be so simple.
    I wouldn't say that's the case for Superman or Wonder Woman or Green Lantern or even Batman or the JLA. Flash, Titans, and Green Arrow are still kind of stuck in the New 52, but Flash is kind of the root of it and is the one with all the "Rebirth mysteries."

    As a matter of fact, I'd state just the opposite. When Bart introduces himself, he does so as Impulse -- but the people there don't recognize that. If YJ still happened then people would know who Impulse is. They DO recognize Kid Flash -- and while Wallace has been around as Kid Flash recently, Bart definitely more resembles Bar Torr's horrible self appearance wise.
    That's really not dispositive of anything. Bart isn't Superman. You're assuming that the civilians of the DCU keep up with every single hero out there.

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