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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    Africa doesn't mean black just like Europe doesn't mean white
    Well the definition of "black" includes many African ethnic groups just like "White" includes European ethnic groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I know she wasn't mentioned in the OP but Artemis being black or brown would also make sense.
    Make sense why? Because she's suppose to be Egyptian or whatever? they have found mummies with what appears to be light hair and pale skin and I've seen hieroglyphs of people with near white looking skin.

    the dna mummies that they tested show that they have the greatest resemblance for people from the Arabian Peninsula and have a much a greater resemblance for people from certain parts of Europe than Sub-Saharan Africa. So take that as you will. Artemis being pale with red hair and green eyes makes just as much sense to if she looked more Mediterranean looking.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    When have they ever?

    I'm serious. One thing that's REALLY annoying is when people use "white" to include multiple ethnic groups that share nothing but light colored skin and varying shades of that.

    One of the stupidest objections I saw to casting Gal Gadot was that they should cast someone who isn't white.... she's Jewish, IE Middle Eastern, not European. Greeks actually have similar facial features to Caucasians, but darker skin, and the color of their skin is closer to Middle Eastern people.
    "Caucasian" aka the "true" term for "white" people encompasses many ethnic groups going from Europe, North Africa and South Asia and West Asia (aka Middle East). EDIT: the "White" race is a silly concept itself. "Caucasian" people are from more than just Europe and like you said there are European ethnic groups, especially in Mediterranean Europe that have brown skin and "exotic" features but are still "white" and many "Non white" ethnic groups can have very "ghost white" skin but still not be "seen" as "white".

    America and several other countries in North and South America recognize Arabs along with Europeans as "white". And they are diverse as any other ethnicity and can be ghost pale to dark brown, have blonde, brown or red hair or blue/green/etc eyes, etc just like Europeans. Though as race is an arbitrary concept, some people only consider anyone of European and just European ancestry to be "white". While others view anyone with pale skin as "white" regardless of their ethnic background.

    There was a huge debate on whether Gal was a "white" person or not shortly after Wonder Woman was released. The general conensus was that she's "white" and that her being from Israel or Ashkenazi Jewish doesn't change that. Which is funny because, Gal has "browner" skin than other people I've known who known who don't see themselves as "white" and In Gal Gadot's case, An Israeli person there claimed that where he's from in Israel, they don't see "race", like America does they just see Ethnicity. Example - He claimed that while Gal, an Ashkenazi Jew is seen as "white" in America, she's just Ashkenazi in Israel because that is her ethnic origins.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Because "white" is not really a certain specific look or ethnicity. What is considered "white" varies with the society you're in.
    True. I've also met people who due to their ethnic background aren't seen as "white" in America or to many other people that they met but call themselves "white" regardless because of their skin tone.

    I also know people who would much rather identify with their ethnicity instead as opposed to "race".
    Last edited by Rogue; 02-11-2019 at 11:29 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    Make sense why? Because she's suppose to be Egyptian or whatever? they have found mummies with what appears to be light hair and pale skin and I've seen hieroglyphs of people with near white looking skin.
    Okay and I never suggested this wasn't the case. And since there are black people in Egypt where the Bana are supposed to be from, Artemis being black would still make sense. You wouldn't even have to get rid of her red hair as black can have red hair in some cases.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Or take Frozen. There was a lot of criticism of whitewashing in the movie, but Kristoff was clearly coded as sámi. For a Swede, Finn, or Norwegian this was directly apparent; maybe not so much for people outside the Nordic countries. (Note: there was also a discussion about how the movie used sámi culture and how well it depicted it, but there is no doubt that the movie did show sámi people and depicted elements of sámi culture).
    It's because of ignorance regarding Sami. Yes "Samis" aren't considered a European ethnic group, and genetically I believe they cluster closer to Asians than Europeans but there are many people, usually of partial Sami heritage who look European. having met several of them, many DO have Sami "features" (like a broader/flater looking nose, more "Asian" looking eyes) just with lighter colored hair and eyes.

    Kristoff looks and is implied to be Sami. But in Frozen they never outright state each characters ethnicity. If you look at his nose for example, you'll see he has a very broad/flat looking nose, in contrast to the other characters who are of European ethnicity, who have much slimmer/smaller noses. And to me the way his eyes were drawn look "different".

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    So racebending cannot be limited to only casting a black actor as a traditionally white character or vice versa, and depending on the actual case, might not be readily apparent outside specific contexts. To me, Jason Momoa's polynesian ancestry is invisible, because I haven't learnt to see those markers. That doesn't make them any less real.
    I agree with this partially. There is VERY clear evidence that Jason Momoa's Aquaman has polynesian inspiration. Aquaman's tattoos being the first giveaway and the actor who plays his HUMAN father is from New Zealand and going by his first name, physical appearance and his own Wikipedia article which states a source from an Interview, the actor who plays Jason Momoa's human father is of Māori, as well as Scottish and Irish, descent.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    arguably they did something similar with Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman.
    Arguably? Nah they did. Wonder Woman was supposedly modelled after a woman of Anglo Saxon descent. The Anglo ethnic group generally tends to be the more paler Europeans with light eye colors appearing more commonly in them than say Mediterranean European ethnicities.

    But Wonder Woman is suppose to be from an Island probably somewhere in the East Mediterranean Sea. They cast an actress from a country (Israel) that is generally seen as an East Mediterranean country and Gal Gadot herself has a more Mediterranean look as opposed to a more "Nordic" or "Germanic" look. And since her background is Ashkenazi Jewish, her own ethnic group is generally said to be a mixture of Levant (aka where Lebanon, Israel, etc are now) and European ancestry.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    America and several other countries in North and South America recognize Arabs along with Europeans as "white".
    That would be a surprise to my American friends of Syrian descent—they face a lot of everyday racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    It's because of ignorance regarding Sami. Yes "Samis" aren't considered a European ethnic group, and genetically I believe they cluster closer to Asians than Europeans but there are many people, usually of partial Sami heritage who look European. having met several of them, many DO have Sami "features" (like a broader/flater looking nose, more "Asian" looking eyes) just with lighter colored hair and eyes.

    Kristoff looks and is implied to be Sami. But in Frozen they never outright state each characters ethnicity. If you look at his nose for example, you'll see he has a very broad/flat looking nose, in contrast to the other characters who are of European ethnicity, who have much slimmer/smaller noses. And to me the way his eyes were drawn look "different".
    Sorry, but now you're spreading misinformation.

    The Sámi self-identify as Sámis, no quote marks around it. They are considered a European ethnic group, and what genetic studies have been done (rather few, partly due to sámi distrust of such studies, after the ones they were subject to in the late 19th and first half of the 20th century) points to mainly European heritage.

    While there are some traits that are more common among Sámi than among Swedes (or Norwegians) in general, most of those are not unusual outside of the sámi community; even less so in Finland. From what I understand, the Sámi and part of the Finns are probably the closest we get today to the original hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Europe, genetically speaking.

    And looking at Frozen, Kristoff and the ice gatherers are clearly coded as Sámi, no ifs and buts about it. They wear Sámi clothing, work with reindeers, and are shown as apart from the dominant (nordic) society around them. The Sámi themselves has also recognised themselves as being represented in the film.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable changing something like that during a reboot, look at all the upset Wally West fans there were/are. But that's just my opinion. Race doesn't matter, but likewise you don't want to change the appearance or history of an established character too much either, even during a reboot. A situation like Mile's Spider-Man and Jaime's Blue Beetle, or even Dick Grayson's brief stint as Batman (he's still got a Romani/Gypsy ethnic background doesn't he?), just seems like a better way to do it (although unlike those examples I'd prefer no version of Diana dying to accomplish it).
    So race does matter. if it didn't you wouldn't need a long reply simply I won't care because her race doesn't matter.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Don't mind Diana race bent. Never viewed her as a particular race. She looks more tanned in the new DCSHG and that suits her.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Or take Frozen. There was a lot of criticism of whitewashing in the movie, but Kristoff was clearly coded as sámi. For a Swede, Finn, or Norwegian this was directly apparent; maybe not so much for people outside the Nordic countries. (Note: there was also a discussion about how the movie used sámi culture and how well it depicted it, but there is no doubt that the movie did show sámi people and depicted elements of sámi culture).
    I got that, but several of my ancestors are from Scandinavia and some are Sámi. So the depiction in Frozen meant more to me than most people. Also Sámi tend to be darker than Nords and the ones that aren't are usually of mixed ancestry. But yeah, Frozen did a really good take on Sámi culture.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I got that, but several of my ancestors are from Scandinavia and some are Sámi. So the depiction in Frozen meant more to me than most people. Also Sámi tend to be darker than Nords and the ones that aren't are usually of mixed ancestry. But yeah, Frozen did a really good take on Sámi culture.
    As far as I can tell, dark hair is somewhat more common among Sámi than among ethnic Swedes, but blonde or very blonde hair is certainly not unknown or even uncommon among Sámi, and skin tone is not any different to ethnic Swedes. A large part of the idea that Sámi are darker is due to the early eugenics research in the late 19th century and early 20th century here in Sweden, which had an implicit goal to show the Sámi as more primitive and to protect the "vitality" of the ethnic Swedes. As one example, pictures of "a typical Sámi" from that time would often show the Sámi with the darkest hair and skin the ethnographers could find in the given community. Thus the Sámi distrust of genetic research; it carries a lot of baggage here.

    There has been some work lately into getting more of the Sámi experience and culture into mass media lately. Some films you might find of interest are Pathfinder, The Kautokeino Rebellion, and Sami Blood.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    As far as I can tell, dark hair is somewhat more common among Sámi than among ethnic Swedes, but blonde or very blonde hair is certainly not unknown or even uncommon among Sámi, and skin tone is not any different to ethnic Swedes. A large part of the idea that Sámi are darker is due to the early eugenics research in the late 19th century and early 20th century here in Sweden, which had an implicit goal to show the Sámi as more primitive and to protect the "vitality" of the ethnic Swedes. As one example, pictures of "a typical Sámi" from that time would often show the Sámi with the darkest hair and skin the ethnographers could find in the given community. Thus the Sámi distrust of genetic research; it carries a lot of baggage here.

    There has been some work lately into getting more of the Sámi experience and culture into mass media lately. Some films you might find of interest are Pathfinder, The Kautokeino Rebellion, and Sami Blood.
    My understanding growing up was not that they had what most would call dark skin, just a shade or two darker than Swedes.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    My understanding growing up was not that they had what most would call dark skin, just a shade or two darker than Swedes.
    It might be true for the reindeer herding Sámi (about 10% I believe, though there are no statistics over how many Sámi there are in Sweden), but that's likely because they spend more time outdoors all year round.

    1536_samerisiffror.jpg

    (Image from samer.se)

    So black or brown hair is slightly more common (but easily within the variation range of ethnic Swedes). Main markers for me are slightly more rounded faces, smaller eyes, broader flatter nose, and higher cheekbones. But all of them are well into the variations for ethnic Swedes.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    part of the reason I ended up learning about it is that some of my ancestors are (apparently) "Laplanders" and some are proper Swedes. Wait, is that the same as Sami?

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    "Lapp" is the old perjorative term for Sámi.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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