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Thread: Cary Nord's art

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    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Default Cary Nord's art

    We've had some discussion here on how Wonder Woman has been depicted so far in G Willow Wilson's run, with some claiming that Wonder Woman wasn't depicted as strong or as powerful as in earlier runs. That led us to discuss the actual feats that Diana has done, and how they have been depicted in art, and that led to the idea that there is an incongruence between art and writing.

    ETA: If the images appear small, click on them for larger version.

    So lets explore that. From issue 58:

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-020.jpg

    This is where Wonder Woman runs to confront the leader of the insurgents. The image carries the dynamics of movement, and Diana has an expression of determination and fierceness on her face. However, she is posed in a very unbalanced way, bent over with her butt sticking out and an arched back. The determined expression is also undercut by the rather waifish way that Diana is drawn: the determination feels more momentary than something implacable to me.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-021.jpg

    Diana reaches Ares, and is greeted by an axe. Despite carrying a shield, Diana throws it far to the side in the first image, and all signs of determination are gone. She is on her knees, and have thus lost all mobility. Her facial expression is surprised, all determination and fierceness is gone.

    In the following frame Diana looks small and afraid.

    A note on the "Hunh". While going through the issues for this article I found quite a lot of these and similar sounds. I'm not sure this is a Wilsonism (I didn't find any on a quick check of my wife's Ms Marvel TPB), but they come not only from Diana but from Ares as well, as well as when Steve Trevor succumbs to his wound. I do believe they detract from the narrative used as liberally as they are here.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-022.jpg

    From the final page of issue 58. Notice the posings here. Ares is maybe not shown as confident, but he stands straight, holding his shield. He is neither threatening Diana nor visibly ready to defend against an attack. ETA: If anything, I'd say Ares appears proud.

    Diana, on the other hand, looks up in surprise. Her posing makes her smaller than she really is, and she does not present any confidence. Again, she appears more childish than anything else.
    Last edited by kjn; 01-08-2019 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    We've had some discussion here on how Wonder Woman has been depicted so far in G Willow Wilson's run, with some claiming that Wonder Woman wasn't depicted as strong or as powerful as in earlier runs. That led us to discuss the actual feats that Diana has done, and how they have been depicted in art, and that led to the idea that there is an incongruence between art and writing.

    So lets explore that. From issue 58:

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-020.jpg

    This is where Wonder Woman runs to confront the leader of the insurgents. The image carries the dynamics of movement, and Diana has an expression of determination and fierceness on her face. However, she is posed in a very unbalanced way, bent over with her butt sticking out and an arched back. The determined expression is also undercut by the rather waifish way that Diana is drawn: the determination feels more momentary than something implacable to me.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-021.jpg

    Diana reaches Ares, and is greeted by an axe. Despite carrying a shield, Diana throws it far to the side in the first image, and all signs of determination are gone. She is on her knees, and have thus lost all mobility. Her facial expression is surprised, all determination and fierceness is gone.

    In the following frame Diana looks small and afraid.

    A note on the "Hunh". While going through the issues for this article I found quite a lot of these and similar sounds. I'm not sure this is a Wilsonism (I didn't find any on a quick check of my wife's Ms Marvel TPB), but they come not only from Diana but from Ares as well, as well as when Steve Trevor succumbs to his wound. I do believe they detract from the narrative used as liberally as they are here.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 058-022.jpg

    From the final page of issue 58. Notice the posings here. Ares is maybe not shown as confident, but he stands straight, holding his shield. He is neither threatening Diana nor visibly ready to defend against an attack.

    Diana, on the other hand, looks up in surprise. Her posing makes her smaller than she really is, and she does not present any confidence. Again, she appears more childish than anything else.
    She needed help to redirect a missile. Struggled lifting a plane. Found it hard to save 2 kids from the battlefield, and was wondering if she'd make it in one piece.


    I'm just tired of the concept that in order for WW to be "interesting" or have "quality" stories. Everything must be a challenge to her. We have enough evidence in 77 years of stories to debunk that theory. I will give gww some more time before judging her overall run. I'm just expressing my opinion that so far, her run is not good enough to me. Both, the writing and of course Diana's unimpressive power.

    I don't want to sound annoying. But since N52, where they turned her into a caricature of what some men think a strong woman should be written like, most things in the Wonder verse have been disappointing. A generic hercules origin, rapists amazon(gone now thank God), superhuman xena who loves to stab villains and friends. A downgrade in power, twin brother getting more powers than her, etc. It's like DC has done everything they can to make Wonder Woman look well, not very wonderful. And so far, gww is not helping to change that either.
    Last edited by starlight25; 01-07-2019 at 01:23 AM.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    She needed help to redirect a missile. Struggled lifting a plane. Found it hard to save 2 kids from the battlefield, and was wondering if she'd make it in one piece.
    Please, you are derailing the thread before it even has started.

    Some pictures from issue 59 with my comments.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-008.jpg

    Here we have Ares and Diana stopping a ballistic missile. Again, there is quite a bit of dynamics in the picture but I think it's mainly due to the inking and colouring rather than from Nord's pencils: Diana appears to be still compared to the missile. I'm not really sure how to interpret her facial expression.

    Note the return of the grunt, that I discussed in my first post.

    Ares's face is of course hidden by his helmet, but I do find his posture rather strange. Nord's arm placements and angles often look uncomfortable to me, and this is another example. Diana is probably the most frequent victim, but not the only one.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-011.jpg

    Ares has thrown the missile into a village of civilians, and is attacked by Wonder Woman. Diana's face expresses anger, but it is still looks fleeting and momentary, and it looks like it rather controls Diana rather than Diana controlling her anger. Note also her body posture, with her breasts prominent, her left hip jutting out to the side (partly hidden by Ares's helmet), and a leg as wide as her waist. She evokes a bit of power, but appears more tense than anything.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-013.jpg

    The image that started this research, with the observation from SiegePerilous02. In the previous frame Diana had disarmed and caught Ares with her lasso. Here she implies that Ares is still tied by the lasso, but it hangs inert by her hip. For once, Diana appears in a pose of power, but I still think it shows the wrong emotion. Instead of expressing certainty on her relation to Ares and what can happen to him, she is too threatening and aggressive.
    Last edited by kjn; 01-08-2019 at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Please, you are derailing the thread before it even has started.

    Some pictures from issue 59 with my comments.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-008.jpg

    Here we have Ares and Diana stopping a ballistic missile. Again, there is quite a bit of dynamics in the picture but I think it's mainly due to the inking and colouring rather than from Nord's pencils: Diana appears to be still compared to the missile. I'm not really sure how to interpret her facial expression.

    Note the return of the grunt, that I discussed in my first post.

    Ares's face is of course hidden by his helmet, but I do find his posture rather strange. Nord's arm placements and angles often look uncomfortable to me, and this is another example. Diana is probably the most frequent victim, but not the only one.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-011.jpg

    Ares has thrown the missile into a village of civilians, and is attacked by Wonder Woman. Diana's face expresses anger, but it is still looks fleeting and momentary, and it looks like it rather controls Diana rather than Diana controlling her anger. Note also her body posture, with her breasts prominent, her left hip jutting out to the side (partly hidden by Ares's helmet), and a leg as wide as her spine. She evokes a bit of power, but appears more tense than anything.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 059-013.jpg

    The image that started this research, with the observation from SiegePerilous02. In the previous frame Diana had disarmed and caught Ares with her lasso. Here she implies that Ares is still tied by the lasso, but it hangs inert by her hip. For once, Diana appears in a pose of power, but I still think it shows the wrong emotion. Instead of expressing certainty on her relation to Ares and what can happen to him, she is too threatening and aggressive.
    Didn't you make this thread because the discussion that WW is portrayed as weak in th current run? How am i derailing? She looks like it takes an effort for her in many of the scans posted here.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    Didn't you make this thread because the discussion that WW is portrayed as weak in th current run? How am i derailing? She looks like it takes an effort for her in many of the scans posted here.
    You are derailing because I wanted to explore the nuances and expressions that Nord's art conveys, and how it ties into and interacts with Wilson's narrative in greater depth. In other word: discuss if his art is a poor fit for Wonder Woman, and if so, how and why it is a poor fit. Meanwhile you are just asserting the same points that you have made in other threads, that have nothing to do with art, and didn't engage with a single one of the observations I made.

    On to issue 60:

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 060-004.jpg

    In the first frame, Diana expresses fear. In the second we get determination. In the third we get, what? Breaking Ares's axe into pieces ought to show more than a bit of power and effort, but Diana's face sure does not express that. Note also again how Diana's back is arched and how her breasts are jutting out, further diminishing any sense of power from the posture.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 060-012.jpg

    I include this as a counterpoint to the third image in my first post, from the final page of issue #58. While Diana's posture is better in this image, it is still Etta's body language that dominates, and is the more bold and assertive.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 060-013.jpg

    There is so much strange going on in this picture I hardly know where to start. Etta's scarf is positioned in such a way, and is shown at such an angle, that I first thought it was Etta's mouth (like if she had been jokerised). Then we have the distance and angle between Diana's legs. Again, she is bending over. Her giant breasts make her look far too front- and top-heavy, and it contrasts badly with her otherwise waifish form in body and face. Again Diana looks surprised and afraid, and not knowing what to do.
    Last edited by kjn; 01-07-2019 at 06:46 AM.

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    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    I don't care for Nord's art so far. Diana looks way too skinny and frail. His art is also too cartoony and inconsistent IMO. How did we go from stellar artists like Nicola Scott and Liam Sharp to this? Batman and Superman usually get A or B list artist 95% of the time but Diana seems to get newbies or leftovers a lot of times.
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    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    Didn't you make this thread because the discussion that WW is portrayed as weak in th current run? How am i derailing? She looks like it takes an effort for her in many of the scans posted here.
    This thread is about how the artwork depicts Diana.

    Please don't derail it into a storyline and characterization debate as that's well covered in the main thread about the issue.
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    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Here are some comparisons from issue 61, and how Xermanico draws Diana's poses and expressions in some similar situations as above.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 061-009.jpg

    Notice how Diana runs. She is upright and in balance, ready to counter any threat with the shield held high. Her facial expression gives off a slight worry, but it seems to be mainly directed at the children accompanying her, and she shouts to reassure and encourage them.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 061-016.jpg

    Diana offers to help the prime minister to a site for peace (or at least ceasefire) talks. Note how she and Steve have near-identical positions and expressions, with Diana in the foreground. She stands tall, with a determined and assertive look, and the angle from slightly below makes her appear larger than life. Aphrodite's stance and expression is just as confident, but where Diana is serious, Aphrodite is more amused.

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 061-019.jpg

    Diana has just caught a missile with her lasso and thrown it somewhere. Here I want to compare it with the first image from issue 58, which also has her butt jutting out and an arched back. However, the angle is such that we don't get to see straight up her cleavage. Instead we get her entire behind shaded in black under the moving pieces of her armoured skirt. However, those and the angle of her arms and legs give a strong sense of dynamic movement that flows together with her temporarily unbalanced figure.

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    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    And two examples from JLD #2, with pencils by Alvaro Martinez Bueno.

    Justice League Dark (2018-) 002-008.jpg

    Wonder Woman lifts up and demands answers from/threatens Zatanna; chosen because it very much mirrors the third image from #59 where Diana lifts up Ares. While we don't get the whole body, I'd say this image exudes more raw power, probably because of its more realistic nature. All of her expresses anger and frustration. However, I do think Diana is drawn in a too masculine way here, most apparent in neck and face.

    Justice League Dark (2018-) 002-009.jpg

    From the following page, where Diana apologises to Zatanna for her earlier behaviour. Note how two different feelings are expressed here. The body and arms convey determination, the face shows shame and contrition over her earlier behaviour towards Zatanna.

    Now, all these examples are of course selected, but to me it's clear that Nord so far has been a poor fit for drawing Wonder Woman. Instead of strength, confidence, and capability, we get to see surprise, fear, and uncertainty in both her face and body expressions.

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    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I don't care for Nord's art so far. Diana looks way too skinny and frail. His art is also too cartoony and inconsistent IMO. How did we go from stellar artists like Nicola Scott and Liam Sharp to this? Batman and Superman usually get A or B list artist 95% of the time but Diana seems to get newbies or leftovers a lot of times.
    Yeah, I agree with you on Nord's way of drawing Diana. I did check out some of his art on the net, and it was largely of a higher quality than this, though he did have a tendency for cheesecake art. But in my analysis here I purposefully set out to disregard Diana's bodytype and instead focus on poses and emotions, and how they can contribute to make Diana appear less powerful than her actions would otherwise imply.

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    Incredible Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    You are derailing because I wanted to explore the nuances and expressions that Nord's art conveys, and how it ties into and interacts with Wilson's narrative in greater depth. In other word: discuss if his art is a poor fit for Wonder Woman, and if so, how and why it is a poor fit. Meanwhile you are just asserting the same points that you have made in other threads, that have nothing to do with art, and didn't engage with a single one of the observations I made.

    On to issue 60:

    Wonder Woman (2016-) 060-004.jpg

    In the first frame, Diana expresses fear. In the second we get determination. In the third we get, what? Breaking Ares's axe into pieces ought to show more than a bit of power and effort, but Diana's face sure does not express that. Note also again how Diana's back is arched and how her breasts are jutting out, further diminishing any sense of power from the posture.
    Honestly? I would not have noticed Diana actually breaking the axe if not for your commentary. The pose looks more as if she is trying not to break her back. And to me it seemed as if she were floating above the ground for a moment. Don't know if it's because of the shadows or just because of me.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Honestly? I would not have noticed Diana actually breaking the axe if not for your commentary. The pose looks more as if she is trying not to break her back. And to me it seemed as if she were floating above the ground for a moment. Don't know if it's because of the shadows or just because of me.
    Yeah, the whole sequence is kinda strange, and sort of implies an implacable force (Ares) meeting an immovable object (Diana's bracelets), transmitted via an imperfect object (the axe). And I have a hard time seeing how Diana connects with the ground as well—probably one of the few examples where the colouring is subpar, since otherwise it's consistently good.

    (Well, I don't like how Romulo Fajardo Jr. does the tips of the noses, but one can't have everything.)

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    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    Yeah, for me it feels like Nord was not the best choice at all. He highlights all the wrong things in Diana's facial and body expression and makes her seem like an insecure girl. Which surprises me cause the beginning of Rebirth was pretty strong art-wise. Even Robinson's run had great artists, especially Lupacchino.

    I just wish Xermanico could stay on the title permanently.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yeah not a fan of Nord’s art either. His Diana just looks so odd. It’s like he does a rough sketch for each panel and then just moves on. Doesn’t feel like finished art to me.

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    I do not like the Nord art. I don't think it's an accurate depiction of the character of Wonder Woman - the thin build, the exaggerated breasts, the sexualised posing in "battle" environments and childlike facial design and expressions all strike me as odd.

    The Xermanico art is quite lovely.

    The Bueno art isn't too bad, although I'm not a fan of how the bodice barely seems to be able to contain Diana's breasts. It seems to sit far too low and I'm guessing it is being held up by magic alone!

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