Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 174
  1. #91
    Spectacular Member The_Lurk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Opposed to back then when STEEL was not just generally unknown but AFAIK the movie had no ties to anything this time it has all it requires. We have a DC movie universe to which it can tie in and we had the death of Superman in said universe which is a prerequisite for a STEEL origin done right.

    If on top they make sure there is no ..."creative freedom" allowed in the costume which leads to this:

    instead of this


    + a story done by someone who gives a damn they have a success in their pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Here is an interesting Youtube video about this very subject by a POC comic reviewer I enjoy listening to greatly -

    ... he must be a racist :P

  2. #92
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Memphis
    Posts
    5,878

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I was thinking on second thought, there is something inherently "Black" about the Black Panther and there is something definitively cultural about Miles Morales. Does that exist for Superman? Is there something that is essential about being white? Could a brown/black/asian child have landed from Krypton named Kal-El?
    We have already seen that on TV shows like Krypton and Supergirl that there are people living on Krypton with dark skin. And movies like Superman 2 and Man of Steel, as well as the TV shows Smallville and Supergirl have
    shown that any Kryptonian on Earth gains all the superpowers that Superman has. So it isn't much of a stretch to think a dark skinned Kryptonian baby coming to Earth could grow up to be Superman. As well as Clark Kent.
    Nothing requires Clark Kent to be light skinned in 2019. It is only the thinking that Superman has always been depicted light skinned that is the basis of the objection to a dark skinned Superman. What can a light skinned
    Superman and Clark Kent do that a dark skinned Superman and Clark Kent can't do.

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    3,277

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    My question is if a Superman of color is just a question of melanin or does it need to be more.

    Assume they are going to do a scene for scene remake of the 1978 film or Man of Steel being released today except with key roles going to minority actors. Would having a Superman whose story and dialogue worked for Chris Reeve or Henry Cavill work or do we have to play up cultural differences appropriate to the actor in the role? Does a Superman who looks African-American have to be any more involved in racial issues than usual? Does a Hispanic Superman (raised in Kansas) have to necessarily have to have strong ties to a Latino heritage (more than say an Italian or Irish one would be connected to those cultures)?
    Oh yes. If they decide to make Superman non-white they better do something more. Otherwise what's the point in taking this step? Except perceived better box office receipts.

    Bringing that extra stuff gave rewards to Black Panther and Wonder Woman imo. BO is important. But you have to balance that with art. Your final product is after all an artform.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-12-2019 at 02:22 AM.

  4. #94
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Memphis
    Posts
    5,878

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Here is an interesting Youtube video about this very subject by a POC comic reviewer I enjoy listening to greatly -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Oh yes. If they decide to make Superman non-white they better do something more. Otherwise what's the point in taking this step? Except perceived better box office receipts.
    The video at the 4:40 minute mark argues against doing something more. That the reason they are making a character into another race or gender is to do something more. Instead of concentrating on what the character can do.
    If they make Superman dark skinned maybe they would be better off just having Superman be Superman and ignore the color of his skin. I don't think that big a deal was made within the movies about Nick Fury becoming black.
    He just does his thing. Have no one in the film even be aware that Superman has dark skin. To them he is just Superman. I think they would get better box office that way because it would turn less people off than if it were
    all about Superman being black. If the people within the movie don't make a big deal about the race of the character, people watching the movie won't either.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    3,277

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    The video at the 4:40 minute mark argues against doing something more. That the reason they are making a character into another race or gender is to do something more. Instead of concentrating on what the character can do.
    If they make Superman dark skinned maybe they would be better off just having Superman be Superman and ignore the color of his skin. I don't think that big a deal was made within the movies about Nick Fury becoming black.
    He just does his thing. Have no one in the film even be aware that Superman has dark skin. To them he is just Superman. I think they would get better box office that way because it would turn less people off than if it were
    all about Superman being black. If the people within the movie don't make a big deal about the race of the character, people watching the movie won't either.
    I don't see what all about being black means. What we look like definitely has some impact on us. Being Black is both similar and dissimilar to being a Caucasian. And seeing that Superman especially in modern stories is very much The Last Son of Krypton as well as the farmboy of Smallville Kansas it has to have an effect on who he is, how the world shapes him and how he shapes the world.

    If such a story ignores that, i think the story might appear false. Who knows going like nothing is different might work out better.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-12-2019 at 04:15 AM.

  6. #96
    Incredible Member Swamp Thing 2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Impenetrable Coccoon of Feelings
    Posts
    875

    Default

    William Jackson Harper as Superman or bust.
    You are my favorite thing, Peter. My very favorite thing.

  7. #97
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Isn't just doing the same thing over and over with Superman also lazy and uninspired? What is so creatively ambitious or original about yet another white Superman? Not saying I am an advocate of changing Superman's race.
    Just that there is nothing special or unique about a white Superman. Where a black Superman would force some originality about his origins and black man having powers in a white society. More work would be required to
    pull that off than with maintaining the status quo.
    There's nothing about Superman that NEEDS changing. He's pretty much a perfect storm of a character, and this is why he's lasted for 80 years, and spawned a host of imitators.

    Making him Black would not make him a better, or more interesting character. It would change the fundamental core concepts that make him who and what he is, and have contributed to his longevity. It's change for change's sake, and that's almost never a good thing. And that is something neither the character, nor the audience needs.

    It all smacks of an agenda. If the idea is so great, then apply it to a NEW character and build on it. If it's really as good as it's made out to be, then it will find an audience and be embraced. There needs to be more new characters and ideas, anyway. Not wholesale change of existing characters. That's why the New 52 was largely a failure.

  8. #98
    Master Hero Vladimir
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche, México
    Posts
    577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joker Venom View Post
    There's nothing about Superman that NEEDS changing. He's pretty much a perfect storm of a character, and this is why he's lasted for 80 years, and spawned a host of imitators.

    Making him Black would not make him a better, or more interesting character. It would change the fundamental core concepts that make him who and what he is, and have contributed to his longevity. It's change for change's sake, and that's almost never a good thing. And that is something neither the character, nor the audience needs.

    It all smacks of an agenda. If the idea is so great, then apply it to a NEW character and build on it. If it's really as good as it's made out to be, then it will find an audience and be embraced. There needs to be more new characters and ideas, anyway. Not wholesale change of existing characters. That's why the New 52 was largely a failure.
    Agreed. This move can only be interpreted as trying to accomplish some PC agenda or fill a diversity quota. Superman is fine the way he is. Why change what works? Why would you try to change an 80-year-old formula that worked and worked well? I understand you need to reinvent your franchise to make it more interesting for modern audiences but you do not change history to bring that about. You do not forsake those who allowed you to build your franchise into the symbol of popular culture it is now. You build off what you have. Honestly, this sends the message that females and minorities can only be respected if they imitate straight, white, cisgendered men.

    This has nothing to do with people being unable to relate to characters that fall outside their race, gender, sexuality, political preference, etc. I'm Mexican and I have no trouble relating to Superman.

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,539

    Default

    Sterling K. Brown as Calvin Ellis. I'd be all in for that. Or if you want in-continuity? Him as John Henry Irons. Hoooo boy.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  10. #100
    Spectacular Member The_Lurk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Sterling K. Brown as Calvin Ellis. I'd be all in for that. Or if you want in-continuity? Him as John Henry Irons. Hoooo boy.
    Maybe. I had more the mental image of Michael Jai White in my mind. Or maybe Terry Crews.

  11. #101
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,079

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lurk View Post
    Maybe. I had more the mental image of Michael Jai White in my mind. Or maybe Terry Crews.
    Man, both of them are kind of too old now I think for the character, although Crews would have been awesome for it like maybe a decade ago or something. I like Michael Jai White, and maybe this is just because of the roles he gets in Hollywood, but he seems a bit too intense and/or cool for Steel. I always get more of an average everyman feel (personality-wise) from John Henry Irons closer to Crews than White.

    I'd like to name a younger actor for the role, but sadly the only younger black actors I can think of are Michael B. Jordan, the kid from Everybody Hates Chris, and that guy from Community who inspired the creation of Miles Morales Spider-Man, and none of them seem like a good fit for Steel.

  12. #102
    All-New Member Kelvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    9

    Default

    This is a complicated issue. The bigger the character, the harder to change, to me. Changing the colour of minor characters will not affect most people but doing that for major characters will cause chaos. I feel it is because of the environment we are today. I generally don't like it. If you are ok with a white character turning black then you have to be ok with a reversal or you are a hypocrite. If you want to write about a black superman, make your own or write about Steel. Don't change the basics of characters already established. If you want to put him in new situations, fine. If it is an elseworld or alternate story, I am fine. If it is an adaptation, It has to be accurate for the most part. I didn't mind Hispanic Superman. I thought he was cool and that was an alternate version. I never knew white Nike Fury but apparently, black Nick Fury is Nick Fury Jr.
    The story is the most important thing though. If you make Superman black and make it the best ever Superman story ever written in this life then kudos, you have made me a hypocrite.

  13. #103
    Spectacular Member The_Lurk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Man, both of them are kind of too old now I think for the character, although Crews would have been awesome for it like maybe a decade ago or something. I like Michael Jai White, and maybe this is just because of the roles he gets in Hollywood, but he seems a bit too intense and/or cool for Steel. I always get more of an average everyman feel (personality-wise) from John Henry Irons closer to Crews than White.

    I'd like to name a younger actor for the role, but sadly the only younger black actors I can think of are Michael B. Jordan, the kid from Everybody Hates Chris, and that guy from Community who inspired the creation of Miles Morales Spider-Man, and none of them seem like a good fit for Steel.
    I though so too for a moment regarding their age. But they in their 50ys still look better than some I know in their 30ys. They look the part in size and beefyness; but also they look not too old but not too young for Irons amount of lifetime experience & education. And while White is usually the stern action man he did have shown he can handle some self irony in rare occasions (Toxic Avenger 2; Black Dynamite... ok, very rare occasions; but he has proven it ).
    Last edited by The_Lurk; 01-13-2019 at 01:02 AM.

  14. #104
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvinator View Post
    This is a complicated issue. The bigger the character, the harder to change, to me. Changing the colour of minor characters will not affect most people but doing that for major characters will cause chaos. I feel it is because of the environment we are today. I generally don't like it. If you are ok with a white character turning black then you have to be ok with a reversal or you are a hypocrite. If you want to write about a black superman, make your own or write about Steel. Don't change the basics of characters already established. If you want to put him in new situations, fine. If it is an elseworld or alternate story, I am fine. If it is an adaptation, It has to be accurate for the most part. I didn't mind Hispanic Superman. I thought he was cool and that was an alternate version. I never knew white Nike Fury but apparently, black Nick Fury is Nick Fury Jr.
    The story is the most important thing though. If you make Superman black and make it the best ever Superman story ever written in this life then kudos, you have made me a hypocrite.
    No you are wrong don't have to be okay with the reversal pretending that things are the same is silly

    1. They are more way white characters than minorities. You take away Storm from the X-men drastically lower the ability to see Black character used. You turn Wally West Black they are 4 or 5 other white flash Barry Allen,Max mercury, Impulse, Jay Garrick,etc. You change Superman to black they are 4 or 5 other white superman characters Supergirl,Power Girl, Superboy Kon El, Jon Kent, etc.You change Robin to black they 4 or 5 Dick, Tim, Damian, Spoiler, Jason,Carrie,etc.It is silly to pretend it is same you take white character you are like to find something similar .You take away minority it is very hard to find something similar. In perfect world yeah it is hypocritical to be mad at reverse scenario but it is not perfect world. You have 100 dollars someone takes a dollar away from you aren't mad,A homeless man has 3 dollars you take a dollar away from him it is a big deal. Black Panther,Storm or John Stewart being gone are big deals, Ryan Choi and Jessica Cruz disappearing are a big deals. Wally West being changed sucked probably for some fans but they could easily find something very similar if skin color was that much a deal breaker.

    2. The second thing many minority characters were created to be that race because of lack of options. And thus many their stories revolve around experience of being a minority. You very rarely see a story about Superman that deals with his race implicitly. Race is important part of Black Panther, Luke Cage, Black Lighting etc. They are examples like Blade where race is really that strong component in his story and change his race honestly would be that big of deal except that you have refer to my first point. If the Racial competent is part of the story for white character of course they shouldn't change it but when fictions characters are written like just stock character then yeah it provides an opportunity for a change.

    ***
    Again saying create new character frankly is BS in talking about the Big 2. I am going just use a simple example Green Lantern how is creating new character working out for John Stewart, Simon Baz, Jessica Cruz or even Kyle Rayner. We know how the big two works and they aren't willing to support new characters like they do older characters between Back Catalog where even time Superman is popular it means people are interested in old the stuff h.So they make more money if old characters are popular than new characters. Plus most old readers are nostalgia based are rarely stray from set of characters they like and since the Big 2 prefers pushing older than new(rightful so) most fans end up favoring old characters. The big 2 basically trains the behavior of favoring older characters. Saying just create new character is silly in terms of the Big 2.

    The big point is comics need to be more diverse and only way that happens sticks is with a brute force push whether it is Miles Morales and Peter Parker dies(which got ton of hate from fans) or changing original important character race(which also gets a ton of hate). It is funny people think Superman, Batman, Spiderman,Wolverine are organically pushed they constantly used, put in important positions in story,given the best talent , and when they are fail they are used right away again. Anybody who thinks you can just create a character and organically bring them along slowly is fooling themselves and the big 2 is littered minorities character who never get used. The process of effectively making character important consistently show up is disruptive to natural order(fans will complain) and Marvel is putting on clinic with Captain Marvel how to push a character. Okay just create new character DC and Marvel have Sentry,Blue Marvel and Triumph how long did they last getting real attention?

    Fans who say just make new character are a little disingenuous about the issue and often same people complaining "why is this new character showing up I don't care to see them". When comic characters show up in movie realm and hollywood realize that you have to reflect the real world they don't really have good options (which is why Marvel is making freaking Shangi chi movie). With no new good options for characters available they are left option of changing classic character. Sometimes it works out like Aquaman. Sometimes it works but they are in awful movie like Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm. Sometimes people don't even care Jessica Alba as Sue Storm. So Batman V Superman and Justice League failing means that they kill a Cyborg movie,Green Lantern failing pushed Green Lantern franchise way back and John Stewart,Jessica Cruz,Simon all are further away, And Spiderman failing means that reboot Spiderman to teenager and Miles is further away. Which bring us to this topic Does DC try to push smaller name minority character in market that has crushed at times even the biggest names or do you change one of your big names which have some built in level of success.

    I will end with 1 Billion dollars later nobody cares that Aquaman is Polynesian tattooed mostly dark haired. You be true to character and tell good story race doesn't matter. Thankfully the superhero movie market is growing big that they are extending beyond the big two where new and original characters are getting chance to shine in the biggest stage but Marvel and DC are still pushing the engine.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,659

    Default

    You should look at this at a case-by-case basis. Frankly, white Aquaman was already considered a joke. They figured they needed to give the character a big rehaul because they figured being true or true-ish to the character was going to fail miserably. He's a guy who needed image rehab, and changing him from looking like a dorky Swedish guy to being played by a guy who played a lot of cool and manly roles doesn't hurt.

    Creating new characters is hit and miss. I'd argue it's mostly miss, but if you quit trying altogether, then you're guaranteeing future failures. They didn't make the Joker female in 1992, but they gave him a female companion, and the character is pretty damn successful. I think comics should take the shotgun approach about making new characters. Keep trying in creating a new ones who resonate with fans.

    Anyway, back to Superman himself. Again, as a POC, I'd say this is not the character to tinker with. Superman's perceived whiteness never bothered my non-white self. In Superman's case, I think he'd benefit from having a wider array of supporting characters and allies. One of the biggest gripes I've read about the DCEU Superman is that among people he cares about, he has Lois, his mom, and... that's about it. How greatly could potential Superman sequels have benefited if there were interesting support characters?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •