Would you care if Superman was portrayed by a person of color?

[Killerbee911]

In that regard I think it's on a semi-similar level as Bruce. Batman is supposed to be old money; the Waynes helped build Gotham City and the city is supposed to be at least two centuries old (as of the latest continuity I'm aware of, anyway). The originals Waynes pretty much had to be white because of that "old money" thing and the timeframe in which they helped build Gotham.

None of which means that, all these years later, Bruce himself has to be white. But if part of the mythos is about pushing the idea of this old money trust fund kid becoming a vigilante, him being anything other than white does dampen the idea of "old money" since, at least in the States, we usually equate old money status with white. Bruce could be something else (and Batman looks amazing as a black man, Ive seen some cosplay that makes me wish for the change!) but it doesn't fit as easily into his mythos. In another hundred years I'd like to think the common image of what "old money" looks like will have changed, but today? Old money is usually white.

Diana, by contrast, should never have been "white" in the first place and likely should've been some mix of Greek and Middle Eastern, with maybe a few other things tossed in, if we look at where the Amazons were supposed to have come from.

Old Money from another race. Hmmm They came to America from another country it is really isn't that hard. A wealthy Moor came to America back in the 1600 or 1700s . But even without thinking that way anyone in the Wanye line marries a Black,Indian,or Hispanic Woman. It really isn't that hard to imagine but yes old money in the US especially is majority white but to get that different perspective you have to be able to see the world in a different way. It fits easily into his mythos Bruce grandpa married a Black woman.It is as really just as simple as that.

This topic is not about plausibility because what is the likelihood ship landing in the right place not being seen for a kind family take in alien kid and the kid being able to blend in? The person writing can make things more plausible .The topic as I see it is really about how some fanbase are unable or unwilling to see character as another color but they have ability to see Egyptians,Indians or Asians played by white people and not disrupt their experience but reverse is too jarring to happen. For years this type of change going the other way never stop people enjoy of movie or tv show.

Are they going to change Superman race? No. No main major high profile character has been "racebent" they highest profile characters have been Johnny Storm or Wally West. If they ever decided to "change" Superman he would probably be part white like Jason Momoa Aquaman or Zendaya MJ. Which always leaves people complaining with not quite enough ammo to make a point because someone Dean Cain is part Asian, Tyler Hoechlin is part Native American did it matter? It didn't stop them from being good Supermen. Here is the funny thing once you say Cain is Asian or Hoechlin is Native American you can see it and they got the job not because they are white they got because look enough like Superman. Which changes up what is real being look for which is Black hair, Muscular build, Strong jawline and some degree of caucasian skin color.

[Shockingjustice]

Just use Kong Kenan instead of a POC Clark Kent.

[HeroVladimir93]

Just use Kong Kenan instead of a POC Clark Kent.

Or Calvin Ellis, or Val-Zod, or Steel or the Superman from Gods and Monsters...

[Ascended]

Old Money from another race. Hmmm They came to America from another country it is really isn't that hard..

You ignore my entire second paragraph here man.

Yes, Bruce can be old money and not be white, I already said as much. But that's not what people think when they hear "old money." They think "white trust fund kid." Selling that idea is easier and quicker if Bruce is white. You don't have to explain anything, he's just a rich dude from old money and he looks like what people expect a old money rich dude to look like. Its not a big problem but it's slightly smoother and requires a little less explanation.

[HeroVladimir93]

Check this out! I think you'll like it.

[Killerbee911]

You ignore my entire second paragraph here man.

Yes, Bruce can be old money and not be white, I already said as much. But that's not what people think when they hear "old money." They think "white trust fund kid." Selling that idea is easier and quicker if Bruce is white. You don't have to explain anything, he's just a rich dude from old money and he looks like what people expect a old money rich dude to look like. Its not a big problem but it's slightly smoother and requires a little less explanation.

Sorry I knew that you understood that he could be any race, My point was more along lines of when you have different perspective of the world you see thing differently. For example we have seen a straight up white Jesus for so long that more accurate depiction would seem weird to people. There was a joke that was common among black comedians that a black man couldn't be president. It was a common part of many comedians sets for years then Barack Obama became president and joke has disappeared once people saw it that thought process went away. Old money and white only makes so much sense because people aren't exposed to the examples even if it was the outlier. Where there Minority Cowboys, Minority Soldiers fighting in the Civil War, Rich Minorities in early america? Yes once you get exposed to example a change in thinking can occur.

It is always funny when these things come up because some people act like is some big impossible puzzle. How can Sue Storm and Johnny Storm be brother and sister? They are half sibling with the same father or one is adopted. But Wally West has red hair? Yeah they are black people with Red hair and freckles. Bruce Wayne is from old money. Yeah it only takes two generations switch a family line around. White man marries a Black woman has a the kid who is half black. The kid grows up marries a black person their kids don't show real traces of grandparents. I wasn't trying to call out you out or your post really.It is just something are simpler than seem but if some people are never introduce to it then yeah stuff like the old money seems hard to happen.

Just use Kong Kenan instead of a POC Clark Kent.

Or Calvin Ellis, or Val-Zod, or Steel or the Superman from Gods and Monsters...

I literally watch Miles Morales get destroy by fans when he first came out and remember it was Ultimate Peter not 616 Peter. If you guys think that using another character is going to well you are being naive. Tomorrow if DC decides to do a Val Zod superman movie. People are going to have a meltdown. Just saying use this character isn't realistic superhero comics have been a thing for at least for many decades and no new hero has broken in the top pantheon of heroes Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, Hulk, Wolverine, etc The closest you have is Black Panther and John Stewart who are like silver age creations. You aren't being genuine or you are being naive when suggesting just use this hero. New heroes don't get the support, New heroes are trash when they seem to be going into a major character position.

Now the world looks like it is taking a little corner with success of Black Panther,Crazy Rich Asians,Wonder Woman and Into the Spiderverse so it looks like movie industry more open to new characters and see there is at least a niche for minority character. But then you look at Spawn which should be a easy green light, You look at Cyborg silent getting move off the board. Where are the smaller fringe heroes from Image, Valiant,Dark horse, etc? Why are people quick to just use blank hero?

Saying use this random minority superhero character is not based in realism. Comic world is filled qualified legit minority heroes with long term series or many apperances and none those guys have movies or shows. Why do people suggest these fringe heroes like it would happen?

[Darkspellmaster]

I was thinking on second thought, there is something inherently "Black" about the Black Panther and there is something definitively cultural about Miles Morales. Does that exist for Superman? Is there something that is essential about being white? Could a brown/black/asian child have landed from Krypton named Kal-El?

I know this is from page 6, but I'd also like to answer.

To answer your first question I need to frame it thus, I think with Black Panther it's more of a location culture. You have a character that is distinctly African in nature. The lore, the history of his story has since his conception been built upon the idea of Wakanda as a nation and thus his connection to it as the King, or Prince, depending on time period.

Miles on the other hand is a harder one as you have a character that intersects cultures. Miles has rooted in him his Latin culture through language and food and other aspects his mother puts on him. His father's side of things seems to stem less from a direct heritage as with the Latin American side of him, but a more social culture for the experience of a young black man in New York. So the social culture here can be seen as not inherently connected to him in certain ways and differently than the more family oriented culture is.

I could argue that you can't change either race, but I can also argue that you can change who is in the costume. You could have a different race in the role of Black Panther, for example, but that character would have to be steeped into the lore of Wakanda. I could say that if T'challa adopted a child and raised him or her in that culture and they saw themselves as Wakandan and fought for the same reasons that their father did, they would be Black Panther. But they could not be T'challa.

And there in lies the difference here. Kal is alien, as such hes already trying to blend into society as a whole. There is nothing white about him as hes not from earth. You can have any person play him. However, as with Miles, there is a family culture there. Clark was raised a certain way. His culture comes from how he was raised as a boy by the Kent's and the world around him. What makes him Clark is not his skin tone but in the way his personality is, his behavior and beliefs.

He wants to help people and his culture comes from being Kryptonian. But it's not a real place like say Kenya is. So culture wise a writer can do whatever with it. The idea of Superman is to give people someone to aspire to be and give them hope, helping them see the good in themselves and in others. And I dont think that there is anything inherently white about that.

[Darkspellmaster]

Goes back to my question of whether the dialogue and attitude are part of depicting the race. Could a single voice actor of undetermined ethnicity do a successful Superman cartoon that works regardless of whether the artists draw Superman as any ethnicity? For example, putting aside your recognizing their specific voices, could you hand Shemar Moore, Jimmy Smits, and Daniel Kim the same Superman cartoon script and produce a cartoon that works equally for any of the three regardless of if he is voicing a Superman of his ethnicity or the ethnicity of the other two?

They have been doing it for quite a while now. Phill Lamar is black and hes played everything from white to Asian to a purple people eater alien. Kimberly Brooks has done a ton of different characters of different ethnicities, Steve Yeun has done white characters and at least one Spanish guy. Christina Vee does a half French half Chinese, or Korean, cant remember, character.

So the answer is yes you can. Actors deal in tone and vocal perception, not in what you physically see but what you hear.

Superman wouldn't care, if you could ask him. Neither do I.

Exactly. Thank you.

You ignore my entire second paragraph here man.

Yes, Bruce can be old money and not be white, I already said as much. But that's not what people think when they hear "old money." They think "white trust fund kid." Selling that idea is easier and quicker if Bruce is white. You don't have to explain anything, he's just a rich dude from old money and he looks like what people expect a old money rich dude to look like. Its not a big problem but it's slightly smoother and requires a little less explanation.

Old money doesn't inherently mean white. It just means the family has money from a while ago. One can be black and be old money from Europe or Africa or Australia or south America or the Caribbean, etc. You really don't need a lot to explain it either for a black Bruce. His family happens to be black. Someone at some point in the past got a lot of money and they started Wayne tech, the end.

[HeroVladimir93]

He wants to help people and his culture comes from being Kryptonian. But it's not a real place like say Kenya is. So culture wise a writer can do whatever with it. The idea of Superman is to give people someone to aspire to be and give them hope, helping them see the good in themselves and in others. And I dont think that there is anything inherently white about that.

Look, nobody is saying that Superman cannot help people as a black person, the point is that there are already black people in DC that have called themselves Superman (Calvin Ellis, Val-Zod) and they didn't replace Clark Kent; well, at least in the primary continuity. Those versions of Superman can be adapted and portrayed in various media without having to modify a significant aspect of Clark's identity. Clark is white, that's how people know him as and how people like him best. You might argue that Clark is more than just his skin color but Clark has been white since the 1930s and that's something people heavily associate with him. There is no reason to change that, unless of course you want a prove a point regarding diversity.

And that's where the problem about race-swapping Clark (not Superman, Clark) comes in. If you change Clark's skin color, people will think it would be some sort of SJW agenda or politically correct bias. We live in an age where everything must have an agenda, no matter how small. You make Clark black? It's a message about racism. You make Clark gay? It's a message about homophobia. You make Clark Republican? It's a message about the far right. If you change an already established aspect about Clark's identity, you might as well open Pandora's Box and leave Clark's other attributes open to heavy modification.

You cannot tell me that making Clark black/gay/Republican will not cause a backlash. You cannot tell me that changing one of Clark's physical or mental attributes will not divide the fanbase and hurt the Superman IP. A divided fanbase is the last thing DC needs right now; especially because Superman is not making any major appearances in mainstream media. Many franchises that have accepted a politically corrected agenda have seen their fanbases divided because the increase of political themes also indicates a decrease in quality for the stories and the depiction of characters. People complain about the female protagonist of Doctor Who, the heavy diversity themes in Star Wars or the introduction of new characters in Marvel Comics because the original characters in those franchises have undergone major changes just to fit the political agendas of the people that now handle those franchises.

Luke Skywalker becoming a cynical and bitter old man? Rey is a much better heroine. Thor becoming unworthy of his powers and name? Jane Foster becomes the new Thor. Tony Stark being left in a coma? Riri Williams takes his place in the Marvel superhero community. Superman getting brainwashed and forced to fight Supergirl? He leaves Earth and says Supergirl is a much better heroine. The straight white male character gets emasculated and dragged through the mud just to prop up or propel the diversity character forward. I don't think this is a coincidence.

I understand the need for diversity and representation but you do not emasculate and diminish pre-established characters just to prove your point. You do not change history and invalidate the struggles of straight white male characters just to make your diversity character better. You make your own story and create your own legacy. There is no need to change what works. Superman is a straight white male character because it works, because people want him that way. If you don't understand that, then maybe you don't understand Superman at all. Superman's history and legacy should be respected, even if that legacy is that of a straight white male character.

[DochaDocha]

They have been doing it for quite a while now. Phill Lamar is black and hes played everything from white to Asian to a purple people eater alien. Kimberly Brooks has done a ton of different characters of different ethnicities, Steve Yeun has done white characters and at least one Spanish guy. Christina Vee does a half French half Chinese, or Korean, cant remember, character.

So the answer is yes you can. Actors deal in tone and vocal perception, not in what you physically see but what you hear.

To an extent, yeah. These days, much of the time when someone voice acts a role that doesn't represent his or her race, the actor uses such a bland accent that it becomes hard to tell. They try to avoid situations like Apu from The Simpsons, which seemed socially acceptable in 1989 but not so much in 2019. Regardless of the motivation, if you try to nail a specific accent or dialect, and then cast someone who is non-representative of it, you're going to draw some negative attention. If you want your character to have a thick accent like Jian-Yang from Silicon Valley, and then you get a non-Cantonese person to do that accent, there's going to be some fallout.

I think casting POC's to voice POC characters sometimes boils down less to making the voice sound like a specific race, and often is more about giving actors of color opportunities to work. I was thinking about Young Justice's Cheshire, who was voiced by Kelly Hu. I think a lot of non-Asian women could've done the role just fine. Maybe when the character was created, they specifically had Kelly Hu in mind to voice her? I dunno. But I tend to think it'd be a bad look if the cast were 40% non-white characters, and only 5% of the voice actors weren't white.

[DochaDocha]

Old money doesn't inherently mean white. It just means the family has money from a while ago. One can be black and be old money from Europe or Africa or Australia or south America or the Caribbean, etc. You really don't need a lot to explain it either for a black Bruce. His family happens to be black. Someone at some point in the past got a lot of money and they started Wayne tech, the end.

You ever hear a complaint that involves the words "rich, old white guy?" It's a bit of a pejorative these days, and it's meant to come with a certain connotation.

What if Bruce's old man was meant to be some "rich, old white guy," but with little of the negative baggage that comes with it?

[stargazer01]

Look, nobody is saying that Superman cannot help people as a black person, the point is that there are already black people in DC that have called themselves Superman (Calvin Ellis, Val-Zod) and they didn't replace Clark Kent; well, at least in the primary continuity. Those versions of Superman can be adapted and portrayed in various media without having to modify a significant aspect of Clark's identity. Clark is white, that's how people know him as and how people like him best. You might argue that Clark is more than just his skin color but Clark has been white since the 1930s and that's something people heavily associate with him. There is no reason to change that, unless of course you want a prove a point regarding diversity.

And that's where the problem about race-swapping Clark (not Superman, Clark) comes in. If you change Clark's skin color, people will think it would be some sort of SJW agenda or politically correct bias. We live in an age where everything must have an agenda, no matter how small. You make Clark black? It's a message about racism. You make Clark gay? It's a message about homophobia. You make Clark Republican? It's a message about the far right. If you change an already established aspect about Clark's identity, you might as well open Pandora's Box and leave Clark's other attributes open to heavy modification.

You cannot tell me that making Clark black/gay/Republican will not cause a backlash. You cannot tell me that changing one of Clark's physical or mental attributes will not divide the fanbase and hurt the Superman IP. A divided fanbase is the last thing DC needs right now; especially because Superman is not making any major appearances in mainstream media. Many franchises that have accepted a politically corrected agenda have seen their fanbases divided because the increase of political themes also indicates a decrease in quality for the stories and the depiction of characters. People complain about the female protagonist of Doctor Who, the heavy diversity themes in Star Wars or the introduction of new characters in Marvel Comics because the original characters in those franchises have undergone major changes just to fit the political agendas of the people that now handle those franchises.

Luke Skywalker becoming a cynical and bitter old man? Rey is a much better heroine. Thor becoming unworthy of his powers and name? Jane Foster becomes the new Thor. Tony Stark being left in a coma? Riri Williams takes his place in the Marvel superhero community. Superman getting brainwashed and forced to fight Supergirl? He leaves Earth and says Supergirl is a much better heroine. The straight white male character gets emasculated and dragged through the mud just to prop up or propel the diversity character forward. I don't think this is a coincidence.

I understand the need for diversity and representation but you do not emasculate and diminish pre-established characters just to prove your point. You do not change history and invalidate the struggles of straight white male characters just to make your diversity character better. You make your own story and create your own legacy. There is no need to change what works. Superman is a straight white male character because it works, because people want him that way. If you don't understand that, then maybe you don't understand Superman at all. Superman's history and legacy should be respected, even if that legacy is that of a straight white male character.

Great post. I'm so tired of all these agendas and messing up with my heroes just elevate another to his expense. It happened to Doctor Who, CW Superman, to Luke Skywalker... Enough.

[Ascended]

Great post. I'm so tired of all these agendas and messing up with my heroes just elevate another to his expense. It happened to Doctor Who, CW Superman, to Luke Skywalker... Enough.

I know Doctor Who is a woman now, but how are CW Superman and Luke Skywalker changed? If the guy playing Superman isn't white, he looks it.

EDIT: nevermind, I just saw what the point being made was.

And you can't even hate on Who. Way back in classic Who it was said that some of his prior regenerations were female, we just didn't see them. And since the Doctor is always a different person, making him a woman is no bigger a change than making him a ginger (which still hasn't happened, despite his wanting it to!)

Sorry I knew that you understood that he could be any race, My point was more along lines of when you have different perspective of the world you see thing differently. For example we have seen a straight up white Jesus for so long that more accurate depiction would seem weird to people. There was a joke that was common among black comedians that a black man couldn't be president. It was a common part of many comedians sets for years then Barack Obama became president and joke has disappeared once people saw it that thought process went away. Old money and white only makes so much sense because people aren't exposed to the examples even if it was the outlier. Where there Minority Cowboys, Minority Soldiers fighting in the Civil War, Rich Minorities in early america? Yes once you get exposed to example a change in thinking can occur.

It is always funny when these things come up because some people act like is some big impossible puzzle. How can Sue Storm and Johnny Storm be brother and sister? They are half sibling with the same father or one is adopted. But Wally West has red hair? Yeah they are black people with Red hair and freckles. Bruce Wayne is from old money. Yeah it only takes two generations switch a family line around. White man marries a Black woman has a the kid who is half black. The kid grows up marries a black person their kids don't show real traces of grandparents. I wasn't trying to call out you out or your post really.It is just something are simpler than seem but if some people are never introduce to it then yeah stuff like the old money seems hard to happen.

Its all good my man, I knew you weren't calling me out or anything. This is a tough topic that doesn't really have a clear-cut right or wrong. Representation and diversity are very much, unarguably right, but how to get there is a murky problem. I'm not holding anyone's opinions against them here; just because someone doesn't support racebending doesn't mean they're a bigoted d-bag, and just because they do support it doesn't mean they're blind SJW's with no respect for the history. We're all looking to fix the problem, we just all come at with different solutions.

And yes, it could be a simple thing to change Bruce's race, and like I said I've seen a few black Batman cosplayers who make a black Batman look amazing. And there's that dude who, I think? is Iraqi or Turkish, who does the Superman cosplay; he rocks it. But thematically, with Bruce, the idea of him being old money is a fairly big part of his story now (though it was only his father or grandfather who made the Wayne fortune back in the early days; perhaps a return to that idea would be easier) and for most people, old money usually means white. Whether that's easy to get around or even accurate is sort of besides the point I think, because you want to capture the idea of "old money" simply; so you can get on with the story. If you have to explain it with "He's old money, but his great-great-grandfather married a black woman, and their son married a Hispanic woman, and their son married a black woman who then had Bruce" it's another bump in the road that'll slow things down. Maybe not by much, but it's not as clean or quick and it doesn't fit the image most people have. Comics can, and have, spearheaded social change (Superman taking on the KKK, dealing with addiction with Roy, etc), and I do love those stories, but in this particular case I just dont know if it's worth the damn effort.

On the issue of racebending as a whole.......the fact is new characters struggle to catch on, and the C-listers who are PoC or LBGT or whatever aren't in a much better position despite having some history behind them. Since the audience wants the classic names far more than anything else, if comics are to achieve representation some racebending might be required. Call it a necessary evil if you will, but the idea of "just make new characters!" doesn't sell outside of the rare exception (and usually only works with legacies), and "push the guys we already have!" is almost as unlikely to work. Both things should be done of course; I loved the New Age line and the Black Lightning mini and want far more of each (and supporting roles, and team memberships, and everything). But since fans only cling to the big classic names (typically).....the publishers have limited options.

So if racebending must be done, it should be done carefully. Visual markers need to be kept intact. Wally West is a red head. It's one of his most distinguishing visual traits, so if he's made black (or Asian or whatever) the red hair has to stay. Likewise, Superman wouldn't be Superman without the spit curl, so regardless of what color his skin is, he has to have the hair (and the strong chin, etc). And if a character is racebent, the changes shouldn't go deep enough to make the character unrecognizable, otherwise its a new character in an old costume and fans won't take kindly to it, even if they support the change in visuals. Wally being a kid again (while peers like Roy and Dick remain young adults) is a mistake, but much bigger is making Wally a delinquent at the same time you make him black. That's just bad optics, and even if a version of Wally did come from a troubled home and the nature of nuWally's vandalism makes some degree of sense (Flash was being blamed for Central City being ruined at the time) it's not a good direction for reasons that should be obvious.

[Jackalope89]

Sorry I knew that you understood that he could be any race, My point was more along lines of when you have different perspective of the world you see thing differently. For example we have seen a straight up white Jesus for so long that more accurate depiction would seem weird to people. There was a joke that was common among black comedians that a black man couldn't be president. It was a common part of many comedians sets for years then Barack Obama became president and joke has disappeared once people saw it that thought process went away. Old money and white only makes so much sense because people aren't exposed to the examples even if it was the outlier. Where there Minority Cowboys, Minority Soldiers fighting in the Civil War, Rich Minorities in early america? Yes once you get exposed to example a change in thinking can occur.

It is always funny when these things come up because some people act like is some big impossible puzzle. How can Sue Storm and Johnny Storm be brother and sister? They are half sibling with the same father or one is adopted. But Wally West has red hair? Yeah they are black people with Red hair and freckles. Bruce Wayne is from old money. Yeah it only takes two generations switch a family line around. White man marries a Black woman has a the kid who is half black. The kid grows up marries a black person their kids don't show real traces of grandparents. I wasn't trying to call out you out or your post really.It is just something are simpler than seem but if some people are never introduce to it then yeah stuff like the old money seems hard to happen.








I literally watch Miles Morales get destroy by fans when he first came out and remember it was Ultimate Peter not 616 Peter. If you guys think that using another character is going to well you are being naive. Tomorrow if DC decides to do a Val Zod superman movie. People are going to have a meltdown. Just saying use this character isn't realistic superhero comics have been a thing for at least for many decades and no new hero has broken in the top pantheon of heroes Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, Hulk, Wolverine, etc The closest you have is Black Panther and John Stewart who are like silver age creations. You aren't being genuine or you are being naive when suggesting just use this hero. New heroes don't get the support, New heroes are trash when they seem to be going into a major character position.

Now the world looks like it is taking a little corner with success of Black Panther,Crazy Rich Asians,Wonder Woman and Into the Spiderverse so it looks like movie industry more open to new characters and see there is at least a niche for minority character. But then you look at Spawn which should be a easy green light, You look at Cyborg silent getting move off the board. Where are the smaller fringe heroes from Image, Valiant,Dark horse, etc? Why are people quick to just use blank hero?

Saying use this random minority superhero character is not based in realism. Comic world is filled qualified legit minority heroes with long term series or many apperances and none those guys have movies or shows. Why do people suggest these fringe heroes like it would happen?

Except, Gods and Monsters was quite well received.

[Jon Clark]

They have been doing it for quite a while now. Phill Lamar is black and hes played everything from white to Asian to a purple people eater alien. Kimberly Brooks has done a ton of different characters of different ethnicities, Steve Yeun has done white characters and at least one Spanish guy. Christina Vee does a half French half Chinese, or Korean, cant remember, character.

So the answer is yes you can. Actors deal in tone and vocal perception, not in what you physically see but what you hear.

My issue wasn't "Can a voice actor do a different ethnicity character?", it was "Could the same exact performance from a voice actor work regardless of the character's ethnicity?". Am I more likely to picture Character X as a specific ethnicity based on the voice actor and their delivery if I have no other clues?