How Do You See The Bat-Family?

[byrd156]

This is a thread inspired by Tim Hunter's thread about reducing the family. I think talking about how each of us see the bat-family will explain how or why we choose who we deem important and everything like that. So here's a place to talk about what you like about the family, what they mean to you and what you want to see from them.

For me I see characters like Jean Paul Valley and Jason Todd being a part of the family as regressive and damaging to the bat-family. Having these guys in the family without proper redemption stories attached to them does nothing but hurts everyone's character. Bruce is defined by his no-killing rule and his paranoid trust issues.

After Knightfall, Under the Hood and Battle for the Cowl would anyone in their right mind think Bruce would accept these people back?

Now let me get this clear right of the bat, I do not think you are dumb for liking these characters or saying that they are inherently bad characters. That is not my point. My point is that just shoving characters into roles that were not earned makes everyone look dumb and the universe loses what little consistency it has. It creates this snowball effect of, well if this character doesn't face consequences for their actions then no one will and stories have no stakes and it keeps going until the whole storytelling house of cards is just a pile on the floor.

If you want these more brutal characters around that's fine, I just want there to be solid reasoning for them. Why the hell would Bruce and the rest of the family or GCPD allow this?

As for the rest of the family I think that Red Robin was a great direction for Tim pre-flashpoint but like many other characters across the DCU he lost what made the direction great. He just kept going out of habit. It's too early to tell how things will be with him being Robin again but I think there is story potential dealing with Bruce and Damian over this.

Dick, I mean Ric is just garbage. What else is there to say for right now. Hopefully some smarter heads at DC have a plan to fix his direction.

I haven't been reading Batman for awhile now. Not because I dislike King though I do find a lot of his non-Grayson and Mister Miracle stuff to be grating at times. I feel like we are are in a new strange version of Bat god, like he's aware of his godliness and is pretending to be human. It's just strange.

I'm pretty behind on pretty much everyone else Batgirl, Batwoman, Detective comics, etc. So I have no real thoughts about them currently.

What about you guys? Thoughts and feelings about the bat-family of the past, present or future?

[Arsenal]

I see characters like Damian, Todd & JPV as important parts of the batfam. They represent that Bruce geninuely cares about these people and is willing to help if they stray to far from his path instead of dismissing them without a second thought. I guess those characters allows me to believe the batfamily is a family.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any lingering tension between characters or there shouldn’t be a redemption arch before a characters is fully embraced back. Just that these characters bring something to the table that rest don’t.

[byrd156]

I see characters like Damian, Todd & JPV as important parts of the batfam. They represent that Bruce geninuely cares about these people and is willing to help if they stray to far from his path instead of dismissing them without a second thought. I guess those characters allows me to believe the batfamily is a family.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any lingering tension between characters or there shouldn’t be a redemption arch before a characters is fully embraced back. Just that these characters bring something to the table that rest don’t.

I think it's important to have drama and tension but without an actually story explaining and diving into these dynamics it just seems out of place to go from wanting to kill everyone around them to being buddy buddy.

[Restingvoice]

Bruce lost his family, and then regain another by building a family that's nonbiological. This is very important for his development and why I never accept solo jerkass Batman. He can start as a solo Batman, but if he's as smart as people say, he should figure out soon that he can't do this alone.

The other reason is that Batman's goal is to prevent people from suffering the same fate as he. People can argue about Batman Incorporated, but even Gotham is already a big enough city for just one person without super powers. It literally consist of three islands.

As Bruce Wayne, he's already pour funding to Arkham, the prison, the hospital, orphanages, clinics, and the GCPD as a preventive measure, but the more heroes exist in Gotham, the better and more efficient he's going to be at solving crimes. I find it absurd if he's harping about doing it alone, when his main goal is to prevent the same tragedy happening to other people.

The only problem here is the narrative. How many pages can be dedicated to each character if they share the same cities? Well, they already solved it, somewhat. The most popular members got their own books, some even left Gotham. The only one left are new characters and trainees, which fill in the gap left by the originals. Having only the trainees stay in Gotham also helps keep the Gotham classic villains intimidating.

So to me, the character of Batman himself, or to be exact, DC, the writers and fans are the bigger problems than the family if they insist him to be the main character of two books, sometimes four or five, all set in Gotham, when all those space can be used for the other characters.

The family is only a problem when they all stay in too close proximity, especially the older and more experience ones, because they necessitate larger threats, and I don't want Gotham to be a war zone every month.

I'll go into specifics on who should go and who should stay next.

[Restingvoice]

Stay
Batman - Stay - Obviously. It's his town. He's the general overseer during the night.
Duke - Stay - Technically still a trainee and he can cover Gotham at day
Luke Fox - Stay - His premise is to test his father's tech so he needs to be close to Wayne Tower. He can cover the main island.
Harper and Cullen Row - Stay - Cullen is still in school and Harper can be Batman's tech support in the city while Alfred and Harold are in the Batcave
The Gotham Academy crew - Stay - They're underage. At least until graduation. Then we'll start thinking.
We Are Robins - Stay - Underage and retired, but I like them to stay as Duke's supporting cast.

Go
Nightwing - Go - He has Bludhaven when he's not in Titans Tower.
Barbara - Go - She has Burnside, and as Oracle, she doesn't need to be physically in Gotham
Kate Kane - Go - She has a yacht
Bette Kane - Go - Assist Kate
Julia Pennyworth - Go - Assist Kate
Kathy Kane - Go - The headquarter of Spyral in London
Black Canary - Go - While she has her Canary dojo, her closer relation is with Olie and Barbara, so if Barbara's out she doesn't really need to be in Gotham
Helena Bertinelli - Go - Keep the Birds together
Red Hood and The Outlaws - Go, just go - Gotham is a gun free zone and he has a team that can be undercover or out in space. He can carry his own city.
Harley and Ivy - Go - Harley already has a home and supporting cast in Coney Island and they're happier this way
Azrael - Go - I don't know him or what he does, but I know the answers to his church, so stick with them


Either
Damian - Both - His home is with Bruce, but he also has Teen Titans Tower and the Fortress of Attitude, he can be wherever he wants
Catwoman - Both - Someone's gotta protect the downtrodden while Batman deals with the big guns, but she can also take a break and visit the Sirens in Coney Island
Tim Drake - Either - Nothing wrong with staying at the Manor but he also has a duty with Young Justice.
Stephanie Brown - Either - She can go with Tim, Selina or Babs, but if she stays in Gotham she can be Batman's spy
Cassandra Cain - Either - Bruce or Babs

So to summarize the groups are
Batman and new family in Gotham
Nightwing in Bludhaven
Barbara and the Birds of Prey in Burnside
Batwoman and her crew go international
Red Hood and The Outlaws from the underworld to outer space
The Sirens of Coney Island
The Headmistress and her Spyral
Azrael and The Order of St Dumas
...
Okay there's something wrong if Nightwing is the only one solo when he has a full city to protect, but I'll think about it later

[Gurz]

I like lone vigilantes but i'm not much for team books usually. I read some team books but that's not what i look for when i read Batman. Once they took their orders from Batman in Batcave, they should go their own way.

[Caivu]

Kate Kane - Go - She has a yacht

Not anymore. She blew it up.

Bette Kane - Go - Assist Kate

Can't, she's in school. If she quits, Kate's going to want nothing to do with her.

[Aahz]

Kathy Kane - Go - The headquarter of Spyral in London

I'm pretty sure she died in Grayson.

[scary harpy]

Stay
Batman - Stay - Obviously. It's his town. He's the general overseer during the night.
Duke - Stay - Technically still a trainee and he can cover Gotham at day
Luke Fox - Stay - His premise is to test his father's tech so he needs to be close to Wayne Tower. He can cover the main island.
Harper and Cullen Row - Stay - Cullen is still in school and Harper can be Batman's tech support in the city while Alfred and Harold are in the Batcave
The Gotham Academy crew - Stay - They're underage. At least until graduation. Then we'll start thinking.
We Are Robins - Stay - Underage and retired, but I like them to stay as Duke's supporting cast.

Go
Nightwing - Go - He has Bludhaven when he's not in Titans Tower.

I hate the name Bludhaven...it's so 90s. But it's here to stay now.

Barbara - Go - She has Burnside, and as Oracle, she doesn't need to be physically in Gotham
Kate Kane - Go - She has a yacht
Bette Kane - Go - Assist Kate
Julia Pennyworth - Go - Assist Kate
Kathy Kane - Go - The headquarter of Spyral in London
Black Canary - Go - While she has her Canary dojo, her closer relation is with Olie and Barbara, so if Barbara's out she doesn't really need to be in Gotham

I preferred Black Canary when she was in a band.

Helena Bertinelli - Go - Keep the Birds together
Red Hood and The Outlaws - Go, just go - Gotham is a gun free zone and he has a team that can be undercover or out in space. He can carry his own city.
Harley and Ivy - Go - Harley already has a home and supporting cast in Coney Island and they're happier this way
Azrael - Go - I don't know him or what he does, but I know the answers to his church, so stick with them


Either
Damian - Both - His home is with Bruce, but he also has Teen Titans Tower and the Fortress of Attitude, he can be wherever he wants
Catwoman - Both - Someone's gotta protect the downtrodden while Batman deals with the big guns, but she can also take a break and visit the Sirens in Coney Island
Tim Drake - Either - Nothing wrong with staying at the Manor but he also has a duty with Young Justice.
Stephanie Brown - Either - She can go with Tim, Selina or Babs, but if she stays in Gotham she can be Batman's spy
Cassandra Cain - Either - Bruce or Babs

So to summarize the groups are
Batman and new family in Gotham
Nightwing in Bludhaven
Barbara and the Birds of Prey in Burnside
Batwoman and her crew go international
Red Hood and The Outlaws from the underworld to outer space
The Sirens of Coney Island
The Headmistress and her Spyral
Azrael and The Order of St Dumas
...
Okay there's something wrong if Nightwing is the only one solo when he has a full city to protect, but I'll think about it later

Overall, I really like this.

It identifies what distinguishes each character e.g. Tim in Young Justice.

I don't think the Bat-family needs reduction as much as it needed definition.

[Arsenal]

I think it's important to have drama and tension but without an actually story explaining and diving into these dynamics it just seems out of place to go from wanting to kill everyone around them to being buddy buddy.

I’m not disagreeing. I just don’t think their place in the family is a bad thing.

Especially in the current universe when those characters arent the same as they were in UTH & BFTC or Knightfall. Hell, it’s hard to say if those stories are even cannon anymore or if they are, how much was changed to fit the current universe.

[byrd156]

I’m not disagreeing. I just don’t think their place in the family is a bad thing.

Especially in the current universe when those characters arent the same as they were in UTH & BFTC or Knightfall. Hell, it’s hard to say if those stories are even cannon anymore or if they are, how much was changed to fit the current universe.

I know, that's part of the problem. If they aren't then fine but if they are then it messes everything up.