How Do You See The Bat-Family?

[byrd156]

This is a thread inspired by Tim Hunter's thread about reducing the family. I think talking about how each of us see the bat-family will explain how or why we choose who we deem important and everything like that. So here's a place to talk about what you like about the family, what they mean to you and what you want to see from them.

For me I see characters like Jean Paul Valley and Jason Todd being a part of the family as regressive and damaging to the bat-family. Having these guys in the family without proper redemption stories attached to them does nothing but hurts everyone's character. Bruce is defined by his no-killing rule and his paranoid trust issues.

After Knightfall, Under the Hood and Battle for the Cowl would anyone in their right mind think Bruce would accept these people back?

Now let me get this clear right of the bat, I do not think you are dumb for liking these characters or saying that they are inherently bad characters. That is not my point. My point is that just shoving characters into roles that were not earned makes everyone look dumb and the universe loses what little consistency it has. It creates this snowball effect of, well if this character doesn't face consequences for their actions then no one will and stories have no stakes and it keeps going until the whole storytelling house of cards is just a pile on the floor.

If you want these more brutal characters around that's fine, I just want there to be solid reasoning for them. Why the hell would Bruce and the rest of the family or GCPD allow this?

As for the rest of the family I think that Red Robin was a great direction for Tim pre-flashpoint but like many other characters across the DCU he lost what made the direction great. He just kept going out of habit. It's too early to tell how things will be with him being Robin again but I think there is story potential dealing with Bruce and Damian over this.

Dick, I mean Ric is just garbage. What else is there to say for right now. Hopefully some smarter heads at DC have a plan to fix his direction.

I haven't been reading Batman for awhile now. Not because I dislike King though I do find a lot of his non-Grayson and Mister Miracle stuff to be grating at times. I feel like we are are in a new strange version of Bat god, like he's aware of his godliness and is pretending to be human. It's just strange.

I'm pretty behind on pretty much everyone else Batgirl, Batwoman, Detective comics, etc. So I have no real thoughts about them currently.

What about you guys? Thoughts and feelings about the bat-family of the past, present or future?

[Arsenal]

I see characters like Damian, Todd & JPV as important parts of the batfam. They represent that Bruce geninuely cares about these people and is willing to help if they stray to far from his path instead of dismissing them without a second thought. I guess those characters allows me to believe the batfamily is a family.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any lingering tension between characters or there shouldn’t be a redemption arch before a characters is fully embraced back. Just that these characters bring something to the table that rest don’t.

[byrd156]

I see characters like Damian, Todd & JPV as important parts of the batfam. They represent that Bruce geninuely cares about these people and is willing to help if they stray to far from his path instead of dismissing them without a second thought. I guess those characters allows me to believe the batfamily is a family.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any lingering tension between characters or there shouldn’t be a redemption arch before a characters is fully embraced back. Just that these characters bring something to the table that rest don’t.

I think it's important to have drama and tension but without an actually story explaining and diving into these dynamics it just seems out of place to go from wanting to kill everyone around them to being buddy buddy.

[Restingvoice]

Bruce lost his family, and then regain another by building a family that's nonbiological. This is very important for his development and why I never accept solo jerkass Batman. He can start as a solo Batman, but if he's as smart as people say, he should figure out soon that he can't do this alone.

The other reason is that Batman's goal is to prevent people from suffering the same fate as he. People can argue about Batman Incorporated, but even Gotham is already a big enough city for just one person without super powers. It literally consist of three islands.

As Bruce Wayne, he's already pour funding to Arkham, the prison, the hospital, orphanages, clinics, and the GCPD as a preventive measure, but the more heroes exist in Gotham, the better and more efficient he's going to be at solving crimes. I find it absurd if he's harping about doing it alone, when his main goal is to prevent the same tragedy happening to other people.

The only problem here is the narrative. How many pages can be dedicated to each character if they share the same cities? Well, they already solved it, somewhat. The most popular members got their own books, some even left Gotham. The only one left are new characters and trainees, which fill in the gap left by the originals. Having only the trainees stay in Gotham also helps keep the Gotham classic villains intimidating.

So to me, the character of Batman himself, or to be exact, DC, the writers and fans are the bigger problems than the family if they insist him to be the main character of two books, sometimes four or five, all set in Gotham, when all those space can be used for the other characters.

The family is only a problem when they all stay in too close proximity, especially the older and more experience ones, because they necessitate larger threats, and I don't want Gotham to be a war zone every month.

I'll go into specifics on who should go and who should stay next.

[Restingvoice]

Stay
Batman - Stay - Obviously. It's his town. He's the general overseer during the night.
Duke - Stay - Technically still a trainee and he can cover Gotham at day
Luke Fox - Stay - His premise is to test his father's tech so he needs to be close to Wayne Tower. He can cover the main island.
Harper and Cullen Row - Stay - Cullen is still in school and Harper can be Batman's tech support in the city while Alfred and Harold are in the Batcave
The Gotham Academy crew - Stay - They're underage. At least until graduation. Then we'll start thinking.
We Are Robins - Stay - Underage and retired, but I like them to stay as Duke's supporting cast.

Go
Nightwing - Go - He has Bludhaven when he's not in Titans Tower.
Barbara - Go - She has Burnside, and as Oracle, she doesn't need to be physically in Gotham
Kate Kane - Go - She has a yacht
Bette Kane - Go - Assist Kate
Julia Pennyworth - Go - Assist Kate
Kathy Kane - Go - The headquarter of Spyral in London
Black Canary - Go - While she has her Canary dojo, her closer relation is with Olie and Barbara, so if Barbara's out she doesn't really need to be in Gotham
Helena Bertinelli - Go - Keep the Birds together
Red Hood and The Outlaws - Go, just go - Gotham is a gun free zone and he has a team that can be undercover or out in space. He can carry his own city.
Harley and Ivy - Go - Harley already has a home and supporting cast in Coney Island and they're happier this way
Azrael - Go - I don't know him or what he does, but I know the answers to his church, so stick with them


Either
Damian - Both - His home is with Bruce, but he also has Teen Titans Tower and the Fortress of Attitude, he can be wherever he wants
Catwoman - Both - Someone's gotta protect the downtrodden while Batman deals with the big guns, but she can also take a break and visit the Sirens in Coney Island
Tim Drake - Either - Nothing wrong with staying at the Manor but he also has a duty with Young Justice.
Stephanie Brown - Either - She can go with Tim, Selina or Babs, but if she stays in Gotham she can be Batman's spy
Cassandra Cain - Either - Bruce or Babs

So to summarize the groups are
Batman and new family in Gotham
Nightwing in Bludhaven
Barbara and the Birds of Prey in Burnside
Batwoman and her crew go international
Red Hood and The Outlaws from the underworld to outer space
The Sirens of Coney Island
The Headmistress and her Spyral
Azrael and The Order of St Dumas
...
Okay there's something wrong if Nightwing is the only one solo when he has a full city to protect, but I'll think about it later

[Gurz]

I like lone vigilantes but i'm not much for team books usually. I read some team books but that's not what i look for when i read Batman. Once they took their orders from Batman in Batcave, they should go their own way.

[Caivu]

Kate Kane - Go - She has a yacht

Not anymore. She blew it up.

Bette Kane - Go - Assist Kate

Can't, she's in school. If she quits, Kate's going to want nothing to do with her.

[Restingvoice]

Not anymore. She blew it up.



Can't, she's in school. If she quits, Kate's going to want nothing to do with her.

Buy another one. She's rich. XD
I'm guessing the rule was she can't be a superhero while she's still in school? Is she in Gotham?

[byrd156]

Not anymore. She blew it up.



Can't, she's in school. If she quits, Kate's going to want nothing to do with her.

Then Bette should go somewhere else.

[Arsenal]

I think it's important to have drama and tension but without an actually story explaining and diving into these dynamics it just seems out of place to go from wanting to kill everyone around them to being buddy buddy.

I’m not disagreeing. I just don’t think their place in the family is a bad thing.

Especially in the current universe when those characters arent the same as they were in UTH & BFTC or Knightfall. Hell, it’s hard to say if those stories are even cannon anymore or if they are, how much was changed to fit the current universe.

[Aahz]

Kathy Kane - Go - The headquarter of Spyral in London

I'm pretty sure she died in Grayson.

[scary harpy]

I'm pretty sure she died in Grayson.

Another mistake that will have to be retconned.

(Sigh. When will they ever learn?)

Kathy Webb Kane (a.k.a Luka Netz) should be the equivalent of the Black Widow; she was able to seduce Batman!

Her sister (also killed – so will have to be revived also) should be the new Doctor Daedalus; together, they should be running Spyral.

I don’t see them caring that Talia killed their father – he was a damn lousy dad.

[Restingvoice]

I'm pretty sure she died in Grayson.

Eh. Rebirth.

Oh yeah, I'm gonna include The Run-Offs back on Dick's supporting cast.

[dropkickjake]

I'm pretty sure she died in Grayson.

Luka Netz died in Grayson. She had a similar visual style, but her characterization later in Grayson doesn't really fit with her characterization in Batman Inc. Plus, iirc Seeley initially wanted Kathy Kane, but was essentially told "No, but you can have Helena Bertinelli if you want."

[Fergus]

Batfamily is Batman, Robin, Alfred, Red Hood, Nightwing, Batwoman, Batgirl and Signal.
Dick, Bruce, Damian, Jason, Kate and Alfred are family either through blood or adoption so they are stuck regardless. Babs and Duke are work family. Tim is family because he is a Robin and Bruce's Ward.

All others I view as associates but not part of the Batfamily.

I don't have a problem with Red Hood being part of the family because

a, it could be argued that he is working on his redemption.

b, he isn't a villain and is more hero than an anti hero

c, Bruce has a no killing rule but he is okay with leaving people for dead, okay with crippling people for minor offences, fraternises with killers making no attempt to capture them if they are pleasing enough t the eye, is okay with associates killing in other cities, allows other peoples kids into his crusade when he could just tell them to piss off and don't involve me in fanboy fantasies [or simply go tell the Drakes "your son is a stalker who creeps around taking pics of me and my kid. Tell him to knock it the hell off or else"]

Yeah Bruce is so dubious I don't view him as a paragon whose rep and ideals can be tainted because he associates with his son who at times kills things.

Characters like Damian or Jason [before he started flip flopping on his ideals] I view as more honest and trustworthy than Bruce. They seem to have higher morals than Batman when we look at action vs idealised rhetoric.

Additionally It makes the family more interesting, more realistic because who doesn't have that one relative.

I would just like Jason to decide who he is. Is he Red Hood an anti hero or is he Red Hood anti hero when my dad isn't looking /when I go on trips to other cities.
Also feels like we are lacking some stories like @ bryd159 of how relations got from wanting to kill to fighting together same with Tim and Damian Tim went from murderous looks and fake DNA results to affectionate pats on shoulders without explation]


Dick Grayson if DC doesn't have faith in nightwing [I was enjoying Seeley and the new Bludhaven ] then make him a spy. That was a Great direction.

I want more of the Signal titles. They killed it too early and it was a good premise.
I'm happy with Tec. Batman being a detective again. Cant wait for King's run to deliver or end. Just want it over with.

Damian's TT is the most exciting book I'm currently pulling so keep that. SS as always is A+ but since the format changed it feels like there are no stakes making the story less exciting.

we need more Bruce and Damian. Rebirth as given us a great deal of the duo but strangely enough all from writers outside the Batverse. titles like Deathstroke and Superman have given us more Robin and more B&R than any of the Bat titles which it's good that Damian is very visible but bad because he is missing from the one place he should most likely pop up.

I don't need a B&R title or team ups but i would like to know that Bruce has a minor kid or hat Batman has a partner who doesn't meow.