How Do You See The Bat-Family?

[Restingvoice]

Luka Netz died in Grayson. She had a similar visual style, but her characterization later in Grayson doesn't really fit with her characterization in Batman Inc. Plus, iirc Seeley initially wanted Kathy Kane, but was essentially told "No, but you can have Helena Bertinelli if you want."

I know the first draft included Kathy Kane, heck, she's my natural choice too, but this is the first time I heard that it's not allowed. Where did you find out about it?

[Zaresh]

Batfamily is Batman, Robin, Alfred, Red Hood, Nightwing, Batwoman, Batgirl and Signal.
Dick, Bruce, Damian, Jason, Kate and Alfred are family either through blood or adoption so they are stuck regardless. Babs and Duke are work family. Tim is family because he is a Robin and Bruce's Ward.

All others I view as associates but not part of the Batfamily.

I don't have a problem with Red Hood being part of the family because

a, it could be argued that he is working on his redemption.

b, he isn't a villain and is more hero than an anti hero

c, Bruce has a no killing rule but he is okay with leaving people for dead, okay with crippling people for minor offences, fraternises with killers making no attempt to capture them if they are pleasing enough t the eye, is okay with associates killing in other cities, allows other peoples kids into his crusade when he could just tell them to piss off and don't involve me in fanboy fantasies [or simply go tell the Drakes "your son is a stalker who creeps around taking pics of me and my kid. Tell him to knock it the hell off or else"]

Yeah Bruce is so dubious I don't view him as a paragon whose rep and ideals can be tainted because he associates with his son who at times kills things.

Characters like Damian or Jason [before he started flip flopping on his ideals] I view as more honest and trustworthy than Bruce. They seem to have higher morals than Batman when we look at action vs idealised rhetoric.

Additionally It makes the family more interesting, more realistic because who doesn't have that one relative.

I would just like Jason to decide who he is. Is he Red Hood an anti hero or is he Red Hood anti hero when my dad isn't looking /when I go on trips to other cities.
Also feels like we are lacking some stories like @ bryd159 of how relations got from wanting to kill to fighting together same with Tim and Damian Tim went from murderous looks and fake DNA results to affectionate pats on shoulders without explation]


Dick Grayson if DC doesn't have faith in nightwing [I was enjoying Seeley and the new Bludhaven ] then make him a spy. That was a Great direction.

I want more of the Signal titles. They killed it too early and it was a good premise.
I'm happy with Tec. Batman being a detective again. Cant wait for King's run to deliver or end. Just want it over with.

Damian's TT is the most exciting book I'm currently pulling so keep that. SS as always is A+ but since the format changed it feels like there are no stakes making the story less exciting.

we need more Bruce and Damian. Rebirth as given us a great deal of the duo but strangely enough all from writers outside the Batverse. titles like Deathstroke and Superman have given us more Robin and more B&R than any of the Bat titles which it's good that Damian is very visible but bad because he is missing from the one place he should most likely pop up.

I don't need a B&R title or team ups but i would like to know that Bruce has a minor kid or hat Batman has a partner who doesn't meow.

I agree and subscribe or almost everything you said regarding Jason and Dick, and the whole "who is the bat family". But regarding Jason swinging between killing or not because Batman, it kind of makes sense for a young man who has had all his problems and still is starving for some parental acceptance. I know it's because editorial cannot accept a batfamily member who is allowed to kill (unless it's Kate or Damian, sort ot), but it kind of makes sense for him to be like that at times. Same as why he goes rogue and stops respecting that code when he is hurt and conflicted. I mean, I can believe it to some level: it's not like he believes that his morals are worse than Bruce's and decides to change them. He's to stubborn to do that, he prefers to be the bad guy and be the hand that prevents more pain by murdering (and vengueance if he has been hurt enough. Or has a bigger scheme in mind when doing so, but nowadays, he doesn't do that anymore. Thankfully).

Or at least that's how I see Jason nowadays.

If you think about it, it's not much different from what happens with Damian.

[dropkickjake]

I know the first draft included Kathy Kane, heck, she's my natural choice too, but this is the first time I heard that it's not allowed. Where did you find out about it?

I think i read it in an interview a while ago. Might have that wrong though; I could have read someone on here.

Either way, until there is some sort of definitive statement, I'm going with Luka=/=Kathy.

Edit:

Okay yeah, after reading these old interviews, I'm convinced that they didn't even intend Luka to be Kathy.



https://geekdad.com/2015/06/tim-seeley-tom-king/

GD: Kathy Kane, Spyral’s leader, wasn’t in the first volume of the book; will she be playing a role later in the series? Was she replaced by Mr. Minos?

TS: [after a pause] Yeah.

TK: See issue eight. There’s someone in there that may or may not be her. Spyral is all about misdirection.



http://www.comicsbeat.com/sdcc-15-in...about-grayson/

HH: Seems like Kathy Kane showed up at the end of issue eight…do you have plans to further her story?

TK: In this series, nothing is what it seems. We keep saying this and we’re going to keep saying it: our goal is 100% to surprise you. We never want you to be relaxed and to be like, okay I know where this is going, I’m going to sit down and read another villain of the month–I don’t like those kinds of comics. I want the stakes to be high, I want you to be blown away by what you’re reading. So I can’t spoil what’s going to happen, but it’s not what you think is going to happen.

TS: Keep in mind that Spyral’s whole thing is spreading disinformation and mind control, and sometimes we may be playing the Spyral game on the readers. That’s how we keep ourselves entertained: by being the villains that we portray in the comic book.

[BruceWayneJr.]

Mismanaged.

[Caivu]

Then Bette should go somewhere else.

Why? What sense would that make?

[rev516]

They're good, but too packed in, when it comes to Gotham.

Spreading them out would be the best idea.

Some additions in the family are useless in my opinion, like Duke and Harper. The last thing I personally want, is another dead sidekick to add to Bruce's man pain. It makes him look incompetent that every single partner dies under his wing and he's my favorite character.

Overall I like the family but I absolutely abhor the 'Kill Bruce' and 'Bruce isn't important' stuff. Bruce Wayne IS the Bat Family, he is the one who started it. He's the head of it all and no one does it better than him.

/End

[Fergus]

I agree and subscribe or almost everything you said regarding Jason and Dick, and the whole "who is the bat family". But regarding Jason swinging between killing or not because Batman, it kind of makes sense for a young man who has had all his problems and still is starving for some parental acceptance. I know it's because editorial cannot accept a batfamily member who is allowed to kill (unless it's Kate or Damian, sort ot), but it kind of makes sense for him to be like that at times. Same as why he goes rogue and stops respecting that code when he is hurt and conflicted. I mean, I can believe it to some level: it's not like he believes that his morals are worse than Bruce's and decides to change them. He's to stubborn to do that, he prefers to be the bad guy and be the hand that prevents more pain by murdering (and vengueance if he has been hurt enough. Or has a bigger scheme in mind when doing so, but nowadays, he doesn't do that anymore. Thankfully).

Or at least that's how I see Jason nowadays.

If you think about it, it's not much different from what happens with Damian.

I understand and expect him to falter from his code because he is human. Change takes time and strength. Making a promise to ignore your code when in Gotham [and you spend most in your time in Gotham] isn't faltering or falling off the wagon. That's a scheduled stop.

I expect set backs but to say you will not uphold the codes of conduct that you believe in because someone else says so then you better be planning on leaving and never stepping foot in that town. Or your codes didn't mean anything to start with.

Damian doesn't have a rule where he behaves one way in one city and another in the next. He is following the Bat code The last time he killed was about a year after he joined the family in B&R because the guy was threatening the Wayne family and swore to never quit.

Plus Damian is a minor and does not have a code of conduct based on what he believes. He has to do as Bruce says. Jason is a man he should have his own mind regardless of city.

So no it does not happen to Damian. Jason is becoming more like Bruce.

[Fergus]

They're good, but too packed in, when it comes to Gotham.

Spreading them out would be the best idea.

Some additions in the family are useless in my opinion, like Duke and Harper. The last thing I personally want, is another dead sidekick to add to Bruce's man pain. It makes him look incompetent that every single partner dies under his wing and he's my favorite character.

Overall I like the family but I absolutely abhor the 'Kill Bruce' and 'Bruce isn't important' stuff. Bruce Wayne IS the Bat Family, he is the one who started it. He's the head of it all and no one does it better than him.

/End

I don't take those who say that Bruce should be killed off seriously. Bruce isn't my favourite in the family but it is clear that he is the back bone. He carries the franchise and there is no family without him.

[dropkickjake]

I don't take those who say that Bruce should be killed off seriously. Bruce isn't my favourite in the family but it is clear that he is the back bone. He carries the franchise and there is no family without him.

It has been interesting to see the Batfamily at times without Bruce. I think that the Batman Reborn era in particular was very well done. Its always temporary though, and honestly I'm getting a bit bored of trope now.

[Mataza]

I would like it if they stopped treating these characters and their relationships like IPs to be sold. I get that this is what they are, but it sucks.

[byrd156]

I would like it if they stopped treating these characters and their relationships like IPs to be sold. I get that this is what they are, but it sucks.

Things feel more focused on getting characters to places that weren't earned just to make money instead of telling stories that feel earned.

[byrd156]

Why? What sense would that make?

Because the Bette I've read wouldn't just go to military school just because she was told to do so.

[byrd156]

I’m not disagreeing. I just don’t think their place in the family is a bad thing.

Especially in the current universe when those characters arent the same as they were in UTH & BFTC or Knightfall. Hell, it’s hard to say if those stories are even cannon anymore or if they are, how much was changed to fit the current universe.

I know, that's part of the problem. If they aren't then fine but if they are then it messes everything up.

[Mataza]

Things feel more focused on getting characters to places that weren't earned just to make money instead of telling stories that feel earned.

Yep, its all about the emoshuns, but these moments are very rarely earned. Writers dont work for these, it just happens. Tension between characters never get resolved.

You have Jason running around murdering people and Bruce doing very little about it and nobody calling him out on that because hey, we dont have to acknowledge what we write, we can just ignore it forever!

You have this 10 year old kid with abandoment issues running around with a katana, almost killing other heroes because "theres no other way".

You have this 16 year old future self thats running around beating the crap out of batman and superman and you never have a talk about it.

And these are just the more familiar examples, american comic books are filled with this inane tripe that doesnt happen even in the worst mangas, manhuas, or whatever. Its maddening sometimes.
I should reread the old Robin solo, at least it felt self contained and issues got adressed there.

[Fergus]

Yep, its all about the emoshuns, but these moments are very rarely earned. Writers dont work for these, it just happens. Tension between characters never get resolved.

You have Jason running around murdering people and Bruce doing very little about it and nobody calling him out on that because hey, we dont have to acknowledge what we write, we can just ignore it forever!

You have this 10 year old kid with abandoment issues running around with a katana, almost killing other heroes because "theres no other way".

You have this 16 year old future self thats running around beating the crap out of batman and superman and you never have a talk about it.

And these are just the more familiar examples, american comic books are filled with this inane tripe that doesnt happen even in the worst mangas, manhuas, or whatever. Its maddening sometimes.
I should reread the old Robin solo, at least it felt self contained and issues got adressed there.

Some Corrections
you have a 10 year old nearly killing heroes to save the world because there is no other way and he is using a perfectly accepted move. A move his father had used a couple if weeks before to save his brother.

Jason isn't running around killing people, when he shot a guy bruce did something. Not the right thing but something.

Not sure how any of the examples you give highlights writers trying to get characters to places that haven't being earned.

Tim taking up Nighwing. That would have been an example of writers focusing on getting characters to places that weren't earned just to make money instead of telling stories that feel earned.