How Do You See The Bat-Family?

[Restingvoice]

c, Bruce has a no killing rule but he is okay with leaving people for dead, okay with crippling people for minor offences, fraternises with killers making no attempt to capture them if they are pleasing enough t the eye, is okay with associates killing in other cities, allows other peoples kids into his crusade when he could just tell them to piss off and don't involve me in fanboy fantasies [or simply go tell the Drakes "your son is a stalker who creeps around taking pics of me and my kid. Tell him to knock it the hell off or else"]

Yeah Bruce is so dubious I don't view him as a paragon whose rep and ideals can be tainted because he associates with his son who at times kills things.

All good points. Bruce is written as selective and hypocritical. I want to examine his behavior first before determining what their relationship should be

Because the Bette I've read wouldn't just go to military school just because she was told to do so.

I guess my question as someone who barely read Bette is how much she values the partnership with Kate compared to her own independence

Also, I agree with everyone that these reboots are being used as an excuse to rewrite character relationship while still keeping the classics. Thst said I still need a lot of reading to determine what each of their characters should be at certain points

[byrd156]

All good points. Bruce is written as selective and hypocritical. I want to examine his behavior first before determining what their relationship should be



I guess my question as someone who barely read Bette is how much she values the partnership with Kate compared to her own independence

Also, I agree with everyone that these reboots are being used as an excuse to rewrite character relationship while still keeping the classics. Thst said I still need a lot of reading to determine what each of their characters should be at certain points

The reboots are an excuse, it just breeds lazy writing and world building that alienates fans of the previous version of the character.

[Caivu]

Because the Bette I've read wouldn't just go to military school just because she was told to do so.

There is literally nothing to indicate she was originally told to. She's going for her own ends, because she thinks that will better her chances to be a vigilante again. Plus, West Point isn't a school you just "get into".

I guess my question as someone who barely read Bette is how much she values the partnership with Kate compared to her own independence

Bette doesn't seem to have much independence at all. She deeply admires Kate and wants to work alongside her, and that's where the bulk of the conflict between the two stems from.

[byrd156]

There is literally nothing to indicate she was told to. She's going for her own ends, because she thinks that will better her chances to be a vigilante again. Plus, West Point isn't a school you just "get into".

Bette had nothing to do with the military or anything like that until she started hanging around Kate post reboot. She was definitely influenced by Kate. But like I keep saying it's a non-existent direction that doesn't fit her character. If some writer wants to come in and make it work then I'll go with it but that hasn't happened.

[CrazyOldHermit]

I see the Bat family is a collection of supporting characters for Batman. Anything more than that is just excessive.

[Caivu]

Bette had nothing to do with the military or anything like that until she started hanging around Kate post reboot.

No, that was part of her subplot all throughout Elegy and Cutter. Elegy repeatedly makes mention that Bette wants to hang out with Kate, and Cutter finally reveals the why. The New 52 just carries on with that, as does Rebirth, all in a reasonable way.

But like I keep saying it's a non-existent direction that doesn't fit her character.

How does it not fit? It's right in line with her past relationship to Kate, just in a new form.

[dropkickjake]

No, that was part of her subplot all throughout Elegy and Cutter. Elegy repeatedly makes mention that Bette wants to hang out with Kate, and Cutter finally reveals the why. The New 52 just carries on with that, as does Rebirth, all in a reasonable way.



How does it not fit? It's right in line with her past relationship to Kate, just in a new form.

seems like byrd is coming form a pre n52 perspective on this. Are you as well? this might be the disconnect.

[babybats]

For me, the Bat Family is exactly what it says on the tin. They're family. They're not all related by blood, but they're bonded in the same way. I see the Robins, Duke, Cass, Batman, and Alfred (and various Bat Pets) as immediate family. The other Batgirls as extended family. Kate Batwoman is a distant relation. JPV is a family friend.

Characters like Red Hood and Damian don't comply with Bruce's philosophy, but that's what families are like. You can have fundamental differences, and maybe if you weren't related you'd be mortal enemies, but at the end of the day you're still family.

[Godlike13]

Bette going to West Point doesn't fit because Bette isn't Kate, and hasn't shown an interest in military service. Stop trying to make this West Point anything more then it was. A way to write her out.

[Caivu]

Bette going to West Point doesn't fit because Bette isn't Kate, and hasn't shown an interest in military service. Stop trying to make this West Point anything more then it was. A way to write her out.

It's not just that. The in-story reason why Bette is going there is to help her be a better vigilante, and not for its own sake. It works with what you're saying for that reason.

seems like byrd is coming form a pre n52 perspective on this. Are you as well? this might be the disconnect.

I am too, just the tail end of it. But the part I'm concerned about has remained consistent: Bette's relationship with Kate.

[Mataza]

you have a 10 year old nearly killing heroes to save the world because there is no other way and he is using a perfectly accepted move. A move his father had used a couple if weeks before to save his brother.

Dont buy the "there is no other way" argument. It doesnt work to justify Future Tim, it doesnt work here either.

Jason isn't running around killing people, when he shot a guy bruce did something. Not the right thing but something.

He didnt do much of anything. A lot of fans want Jason killing. Im fine with that, he should go nowhere near gotham tho. Its like having your cake and eating it too.

Tim taking up Nighwing.

I dont care about nightwing, the mantle hasnt been interesting since the 90s. If anything maybe a change of character would revitalize it, it certainly happened with Batman when Dick took over.

As for Tim not earning it? what does that even mean? What hasnt he earned?

[Restingvoice]

seems like byrd is coming form a pre n52 perspective on this. Are you as well? this might be the disconnect.

Elegy is pre-New 52, but Byrd might be going even further back since Bette already exist since the start of Post Crisis. I've heard people who dislike the approach of Bette in Batwoman because she should be better than that as she's been a hero longer than Kate.

[Flashback]

Bette going to West Point doesn't fit because Bette isn't Kate, and hasn't shown an interest in military service. Stop trying to make this West Point anything more then it was. A way to write her out.

Going by which version of her? This version does, sorry to say but that Bette in your head has been long for a long time now.

[Godlike13]

It's not just that. The in-story reason why Bette is going there is to help her be a better vigilante, and not for its own sake. It works with what you're saying for that reason.

Except West Point is not a school for vigilantes. Kate didn't even learn how to be a vigilante from West point. So no, it doesn't work for that reason.

Going by which version of her? This version does, sorry to say but that Bette in your head has been long for a long time now.

Any version of her. When has she ever shown interest in a military life?

[Caivu]

Except West Point is not a school for vigilantes. Kate didn't even learn how to be a vigilante from West point. So no, it doesn't work for that reason.

You're misunderstanding. Of course West Point isn't a vigilante school. But Bette is going there in order to bulk up her resume, so to speak, with skills that will transfer to vigilantism. She does not at all seem interested in actually serving in the Army, which is why Kate's kinda irritated with her when they have lunch together in 'Tec. Bette's there as a means to an end, nothing more.

Any version of her. When has she ever shown interest in a military life?

She's not actually interested in it. That's the point. She's there in part because she misguidedly thinks it will give her more legitimacy in Kate's eyes in order to be a crimefighter again.