How Do You See The Bat-Family?

[byrd156]

Wait what?

Perhaps I miss read you (or did not understanding what you meant). But how can you tell us how a character thinks or feels without actually reading the comics they have appeared in? Don't you need some sort of context before you can say things like "well this character wouldn't do this because (blank)" or "she wouldn't act like this because of (blank)"

You can say the reason is "dumb as hell" but you can't say that the reason made no sense in the context of the story or character. Let me rephrase that, you actually can, but people will probably call you out on it.

Where did I state that I haven't read her appearances? Where are all the issues focusing on Bette's time at West Point? Please point them out to me so I can be better educated.

[byrd156]

Because Bette cares about looking good for Kate. That's part of her character.



Because Bette thinks that will impress Kate, which is part of what she wants to do. She's taking Kate's ultimatum to its logical end. What Bette doesn't understand is that Kate doesn't want her to be a vigilante. Bette's actual level of competence will never matter to Kate in this regard because of that.

I understand that. I just don't like it because it ignores everything I have even come to know and like about Bette. It just makes her exist just for Kate, which again would be fine if that made any sense from her previous history.

[Flashback]

Ah sorry, probably misremembered, thanks.

No problem man.

I've been there, where I just can't like or get into a character. Just a matter of preferences, I guess.

[Mataza]

You don't think learning how to fight is relevant to being a superhero? Or being able to manage fear? Or learning urban combat skills? Or being exposed to chemical agents? Or leadership? Or what is essentially Parkour? Because all that kind of stuff and more is instilled at West Point and (AFAIK) the other service academies.

As i said, if that was enough youd have like a million Batmen running around.

I'm not sure you understand what kind of training she actually had. It wasn't just from West Point.

I probably dont, what high profile characters trained her?

She wasn't a "superprodigy", and the Colony was working just fine without her. Jacob just wanted her to join because she's a) his daughter, and b) he doesn't understand what she actually wants in her life. Kate also wasn't presented any more charismatic or skilled than she's ever been.

Jacob said she was destined to lead them and instrumental in his plans. If you claim it was all nepotism both by bruce and jacob then alright, my opinion of the whole thing would improve dramatically. I know at the very least barbara implied that when they all got together.

[Mataza]

No problem man.

I've been there, where I just can't like or get into a character. Just a matter of preferences, I guess.

To be honest there are tons of things i like about Kate, i just dont like whats implied with her running things pretty much uncontested the way she does. Like what i read and think and what the comic tells me dont feel like they match up.

I member caivu confirming once that she is kind of a doofus and thats endearing and makes me want to read her stuff, then i go in and i see the stupid amount of respect and reverence everyone seems to have for her and im left scratching my head and asking "why?".

Like for example she spies on Batman which fine, then Bruce goes to her to intimidate her and she disarms him like if he was an amateur and "?????".

[kaimaciel]

My preference for the Batfamily would be Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara, and Stephanie. I don't really know much about Cass, Duke, Haper or Kate.

Why Jason should stay? He was a Robin, he's Bruce's adopted son and he's trying to be a hero, his own sort of hero, but still a hero. He's not attacking the rest of the family anymore, in fact, Bruce was the one who beat him up so badly after he shot Penguin that Jason couldn't hold a gun after a month of recovery. Bruce and Jason may have issues, but they love each other, their dynamic is one of the more interesting in the family.

Dick and Tim had good parents. Out of all the members, Damian and Jason are the ones who badly need a parental figure.

[Mataza]

Out of all the members, Damian and Jason are the ones who badly need a parental figure.

So much this.

[Caivu]

As i said, if that was enough youd have like a million Batmen running around.

Then what do you think it requires that they apparently don't teach?

I probably dont, what high profile characters trained her?

None (maaaaybe Shado, but it's unclear). That's the point. It doesn't matter who trained her, only that she learned. And learn she did.

Jacob said she was destined to lead them and instrumental in his plans. If you claim it was all nepotism both by bruce and jacob then alright, my opinion of the whole thing would improve dramatically. I know at the very least barbara implied that when they all got together.

Kate is in no way instrumental to Jacob's plans. The Colony existed before he tried to recruit her and was doing just fine. He tried to recruit her because he thought she would be more receptive to the idea. It's not wholly nepotism, but it's an element; that's why Colony Prime hates her.

then i go in and i see the stupid amount of respect and reverence everyone seems to have for her and im left scratching my head and asking "why?".

Because she's really good at what she does and has repeatedly demonstrated that...?

Like for example she spies on Batman which fine, then Bruce goes to her to intimidate her and she disarms him like if he was an amateur and "?????".

That doesn't make him an amateur. All that happened was she hit him in the face while one of his hands was occupied.

[Mataza]

Then what do you think it requires that they apparently don't teach?

Being trained by the best of every field, learning every martial art known to man, learning to basically never be in the line of fire

None (maaaaybe Shado, but it's unclear). That's the point. It doesn't matter who trained her, only that she learned. And learn she did.

So you are saying she doesnt really have an origin and thats the point. But where her skills come from matter.
Bruce skills come from training with the best in every discipline like a possesed. Kate skills come from doing sit ups and learning to clean her rifle.

Kate is in no way instrumental to Jacob's plans. The Colony existed before he tried to recruit her and was doing just fine. He tried to recruit her because he thought she would be more receptive to the idea. It's not wholly nepotism, but it's an element; that's why Colony Prime hates her.

She beat the crap out of him. Thats my point. Shes so much better than literally the best the colony has. Theres such a disonance that it bothers the hell out of me.

He should have beaten her easily. Batman should have been able to handle her easily. Through all of this her spirit should have been unbreakable and therefore worthy of admiration. Instead shes kind of a doofus but not really, shes extremely effective. She had the same training than your average soldier but shes much better than any of them. Her father favors her because shes his daughter but not really, all his faith in her is well placed, she is THAT good.

[Restingvoice]

My preference for the Batfamily would be Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara, and Stephanie. I don't really know much about Cass, Duke, Haper or Kate.

Why Jason should stay? He was a Robin, he's Bruce's adopted son and he's trying to be a hero, his own sort of hero, but still a hero. He's not attacking the rest of the family anymore, in fact, Bruce was the one who beat him up so badly after he shot Penguin that Jason couldn't hold a gun after a month of recovery. Bruce and Jason may have issues, but they love each other, their dynamic is one of the more interesting in the family.

Dick and Tim had good parents. Out of all the members, Damian and Jason are the ones who badly need a parental figure.

When you say "stay" do you mean stay in Gotham or in the family?

[Caivu]

Being trained by the best of every field, learning every martial art known to man, learning to basically never be in the line of fire

So... by your criteria, Superman isn't a superhero. Nor is Wonder Woman. Heck, none of the Batfamily fit those criteria besides Bruce.

So you are saying she doesnt really have an origin and thats the point. But where her skills come from matter.
Bruce skills come from training with the best in every discipline like a possesed. Kate skills come from doing sit ups and learning to clean her rifle.

Dude, teachers don't matter that much. Only what is learned. A punch is a punch, etc.

And it still sounds like you think she just had standard military training. That's not the case.

She beat the crap out of him.

No, she did not "beat the crap out of him." She hit him once.

He should have beaten her easily. Batman should have been able to handle her easily.

He's not there to hurt her. Just to warn/scare her. Seriously, do you think he's going to beat up his cousin in her own apartment? After he broke in?

She had the same training than your average soldier but shes much better than any of them.

Again, she is much better trained than the average soldier. Have you not actually read what she did?

[Pohzee]

I've got a friend going West Point right now. And while she obviously couldn't take down multiple armed men with her bare hands, they most certainly teach some badass shit there. You don't have to retrace Batman's steps to be a crimefighter. Green Arrow was stuck on an island. I think that that would provide much less vigilante training. However, specifically in the case of Betty who has connections with Batman (indirectly, directly, I dunno) West Point seems to be a more inefficient route to the end goal than just training directly under Batman, like a Robin or Tynion's team in Detective Comics.

However, the real reason that she is not doing this is because her current status quo is a flowery way of keeping her in limbo. She just isn't a popular enough character that DC feels compelled to feature her in the current Batman books and don't want to dedicate page time to her. As far as being stuck in limbo goes, Bette currently has a pretty logical excuse that makes a decent amount of sense, which is a better fate than some characters who simply don't appear for no reason.

[Mataza]

So... by your criteria, Superman isn't a superhero. Nor is Wonder Woman.

They are, and their ability is explained. Wonder woman was trained by the best warriors in an island where literally everyone is a warrior and she is blessed by every god or whatever. Superman gets his superpowers from the sun.
The robins were personally coached by Batman to be the best. Damian was genetically engineered to be perfect, then trained to be perfect. Cass was trained in such a brutal way that it left her broken for life. Stephanie is a D lister with a strong heart, she may not get there today, but shell get there! Barbara is weak, but she makes up for it with cunning.

These characters generally recieve a treatment thats more or less in line with their origin and development.

Dude, teachers don't matter that much. Only what is learned. A punch is a punch, etc.

No, teachers do matter that much, and how its learned matters, not every punch is the same. Have you ever been taught how to fight or been in one?

No, she did not "beat the crap out of him." She hit him once.

She only needed 1 kick, she is THAT good. And he fought Simulated Batman at its best and beat him, and the mud room was shown to be able to reproduce threats every bit as threatening as the real thing. This is the author literally screaming at you "she beat him easily, he beats batman even more easily, she is THAT good".

He's not there to hurt her. Just to warn/scare her. Seriously, do you think he's going to beat up his cousin in her own apartment? After he broke in?

No, he was there to get humilliated, clearly. Mission acomplished.

Again, she is much better trained than the average soldier. Have you not actually read what she did?

No, which is why i asked, and you told me you dont know, and that thats the point.


Look, im not asking for anything too crazy here, why dont things make any sense? im ok with her being better than Batman, thats fine. What im not ok with is her being better than Batman with absolutely no explanation and then pretending thats not the case when we where shown that it is.

I want to like the character, but these details constantly nag at me and drive me up the wall, in her solo and in detective.

[Caivu]

They are, and their ability is explained. Wonder woman was trained by the best warriors in an island where literally everyone is a warrior and she is blessed by every god or whatever. Superman gets his superpowers from the sun.
The robins were personally coached by Batman to be the best. Damian was genetically engineered to be perfect, then trained to be perfect. Cass was trained in such a brutal way that it left her broken for life. Stephanie is a D lister with a strong heart, she may not get there today, but shell get there! Barbara is weak, but she makes up for it with cunning.

Two of the criteria you included as necessary to be a superhero were:

Being trained by the best of every field, learning every martial art known to man

Neither of those are true for any of the characters you mentioned besides Batman.

No, teachers do matter that much, and how its learned matters, not every punch is the same. Have you ever been taught how to fight or been in one?

I know enough to be able to defend myself, that's about it. I know it's possible to, say, change the force of a punch by how many knuckles you concentrate the blow on. But at the end of the day, whoever's at the end of that punch is still getting hit by a fist.

She only needed 1 kick, she is THAT good.

Palm-strike, not kick. And to do what? She didn't knock him out, just got him to let her go.

And he fought Simulated Batman at its best and beat him

No... she didn't. That literally never happened.

No, he was there to get humilliated, clearly. Mission acomplished.

Getting hit once is humiliation? Are you serious?

No, which is why i asked, and you told me you dont know, and that thats the point.

I didn't tell you I don't know.

Look, im not asking for anything too crazy here, why dont things make any sense? im ok with her being better than Batman, thats fine. What im not ok with is her being better than Batman with absolutely no explanation and then pretending thats not the case when we where shown that it is.

She is never presented as being wholly better than Batman. What are you talking about?

[Mataza]

Neither of those are true for any of the characters you mentioned besides Batman.

Oh wow... No, those were not criterias, they were examples...

I know enough to be able to defend myself, that's about it. I know it's possible to, say, change the force of a punch by how many knuckles you concentrate the blow on. But at the end of the day, whoever's at the end of that punch is still getting hit by a fist.

This is all so wrong
Not really, your stance matters, how compact or wide your swing is matters, the angle matters, where its aimed matters, the proximity to your opponent matters. What kind of muscles you trained and how you trained them matters and it all goes back to who trained you or didnt.
Martial arts are not an rpg with a punch stat, or a game with a punch animation.

Palm-strike, not kick. And to do what? She didn't knock him out, just got him to let her go.

Brought to his knees by her. effortlessly. Im not counting the punch because i passed it as him being confused by the batwoman mud doubles ganging up on him.

No... she didn't. That literally never happened.

She didnt, he did.

Getting hit once is humiliation? Are you serious?

He got handled like a cocky drunkard at a bar.

I didn't tell you I don't know.

Then tell me exactly what got her so prepared to be literally better than the bestest soldier of an elite unit meant to end terrorism worldwide.

She is never presented as being wholly better than Batman. What are you talking about?

>.>
I dont know if you are being purposefully disingenous or you are being honest here.