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  1. #46
    Incredible Member Naked Bat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Maybe because he is tRYING to be out-there and psychedelic rather than being himself. He is trying to be Grant Morrison Psychedelic Scottish writer when he is Tom King sober American writer.

    Or maybe King isn't corny and weird enough.

    Or maybe he isn't that good.

    Or maybe individual taste's vary.

    Personally I can never understand how some can complain about other peoples taste or feel the need to put down something to raise what they like up.
    He's very much being himself, though, as this issue was totaly in line with what he did in Mister Miracle.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayneJr. View Post
    Neither do cape fans. If King is stuck with hammering characters he's unfamiliar with into disjointed, clunky stories that he wants to tell, then he probably is in the wrong medium.
    It's especially infuriating when I find his first arcs did much better to convey his feelings about Batman (him being suicidal, Bruce being the mask etc.), all things I've always thought about the character, albeit confusedly early on, and how Batman overcame it and became something else than the poor attempts of an orphan to save his parents by saving other peoples.

    Now, he's just kind of doing circles about how being Batman makes Bruce miserable and how Bane is a perfect Multiversial Mastermind able to get on board such a nonsensical array of characters, as if it was nothing.

    It's really, really, frustrating, because I keep hoping for something to happen, nothing does for five or so issues, then something happens and then again, nothing for five or so issues. And even when something big seems to happen, you never get to see it on page !

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naked Bat View Post
    He's very much being himself, though, as this issue was totaly in line with what he did in Mister Miracle.
    To put it lightly.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by babybats View Post
    It's a good idea that just went on too long and was way too self-indulgent. It's an attempt to be clever and artful that doesn't work and it was almost embarrassing to read. And I don't usually go out of my way to rag on an issue, but this time I'm actually angry to have paid money for it so I'm going to subject you to my grumpy ranting.

    What's frustrating about this issue is what frustrates me about a lot of King's work--it COULD be good if it was only edited down. If he'd cut out 65% of it, if he'd made better use of the real estate, if he'd stop beating a single idea to death, it would actually be good. But instead what we have is several panels of Batman and Pyg standing across from each other and pages and pages of filler nonsense script.
    I think the criticism of King’s decompression is fair. There have definitely been some issues where I felt they were too stretched out. (The Catwoman/ Joker issues in the church come to mind.). I do think it’s a valid criticism of #62, but I also feel like if the dream/ hallucination sequence had taken up less real estate, or had been bookended, the effect of it would have been lost. If the idea is that King is trying to put the reader in Batman’s shoes, and he doesn’t know how he got where he is or how to get out, you kind of have to have it take up the whole issue. Otherwise we *know* how he got in or how he got out.

    Now, whether that’s a strong enough idea to carry an entire issue, YMMV. I do think sometimes King’s stuff can be a “thin” read due to overdone repetition. (The issue of Mr. Miracle where Barda reveals she’s pregnant was my least favorite of that series.)
    Cheers - CL

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member babybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    I think the criticism of King’s decompression is fair. There have definitely been some issues where I felt they were too stretched out. (The Catwoman/ Joker issues in the church come to mind.). I do think it’s a valid criticism of #62, but I also feel like if the dream/ hallucination sequence had taken up less real estate, or had been bookended, the effect of it would have been lost. If the idea is that King is trying to put the reader in Batman’s shoes, and he doesn’t know how he got where he is or how to get out, you kind of have to have it take up the whole issue. Otherwise we *know* how he got in or how he got out.

    Now, whether that’s a strong enough idea to carry an entire issue, YMMV. I do think sometimes King’s stuff can be a “thin” read due to overdone repetition. (The issue of Mr. Miracle where Barda reveals she’s pregnant was my least favorite of that series.)
    I think it's fine for the entire issue to be the dream sequence. But everything that happens in the issue would have been better done in four or five pages. Essentially it's: Batman and Pyg exchange a few blows and we get some metaphors. It's not even enough to constitute one scene. Why not have a change of scenery? (ex: Batman escapes into the rest of the slaughter house of horrors.) Or use the dissonance between the text and the panels in an interesting way. Batman's narration has little substance to it, so you have to use the art to turn the scene.

    So here are two pages I picked at random:


    First off, you can cut these pages out of the book and it makes no difference. That's a big issue.

    Secondly, here's what the panels break down into. 1) Pyg gets out from under Batman's boot. 2) Pyg grabs a knife. 3) Pyg stands up with knife. 4) Pyg turns away. 5) Batman close up. 6) Pyg and Batman in frame together.

    The journey of Pyg standing up should not be two pages of comic book.

  6. #51
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    For those saying it would have worked the same in a couple of pages, I disagree. Having a whole issue be just a dream sequence necessarily has a greater impact. Also greater frustration but thats serial fiction for ya.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  7. #52
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    There is decompression on a plot level, but on the other hand this is a rare Batman issue that put me in Batman's shoes. The microlevel story allowed for more sensory detail, and moreover it's the first time in a while that we are getting first-person narration from Batman, so we get to see his inner thoughts, which is a welcome change from the rest of the run in which Batman feels like a non-entity. Of course there are ways to have a plot that moves the larger story forward while having a relatable Batman, but I think the pacing has been fine since the wedding, not too fast and not too slow either.

  8. #53
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    I think people are just used to instant gratification.. This issue was fantastic... and the fact that the entire story arc that he is trying to tell isnt getting wrapped up in 3 issues is appealing to me.

    My only concern is, this very long slow-burn buildup that he is apparently working toward doesnt suddenly get wrapped up in a last issue then the following they act like nothing happened.. King said somewhere (twitter maybe.. i forget) that the next couple issues will be 1-shot style stories so.. Im assuming we will see more like this over the next month or two. Im along for the ride... and its still better than Snyder's stories imo... but... to each his own.

  9. #54

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    I thought this issue was great!! ��
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  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinbruns View Post
    My only concern is, this very long slow-burn buildup that he is apparently working toward doesnt suddenly get wrapped up in a last issue then the following they act like nothing happened.. King said somewhere (twitter maybe.. i forget) that the next couple issues will be 1-shot style stories so.. Im assuming we will see more like this over the next month or two. Im along for the ride... and its still better than Snyder's stories imo... but... to each his own.
    Yeah, issues 61-63 and 66-69 are the "Knightmare" issues, with each their own one-shot story by a different artist that is supposed to all come together with pieces and clues that are supposed to solve 60's cliffhanger.

    There is going to be a detour next month with issues 64-65 for a Heroes In Crisis crossover with The Flash, not written by King, so that might make the wait feel even longer so we'll have to wait and see.

    70-74 is a story arc called "The Fall And The Fallen" so it'll almost certainly be picking up from where the last arc and these Knightmare issues leave off.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    I'm curious if the delays of Doomsday Clock has ruined long term plans for a lot of writers?

    The reason why I say this is with Tim Drake back as Robin in Young Justice and Damian showing up as a nightmare in Batman #62, I wonder is Damian was supposed to have died?
    Essentially bringing back Batman to his roots pre-New 52 and allowing Damian's intended ending as Morrison wanted: his death.

    And so because of these delays we have so many books that are really spinning their wheels, I mean look at Nightwing

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I'm curious if the delays of Doomsday Clock has ruined long term plans for a lot of writers?

    The reason why I say this is with Tim Drake back as Robin in Young Justice and Damian showing up as a nightmare in Batman #62, I wonder is Damian was supposed to have died?
    Essentially bringing back Batman to his roots pre-New 52 and allowing Damian's intended ending as Morrison wanted: his death.

    And so because of these delays we have so many books that are really spinning their wheels, I mean look at Nightwing
    I don't think it means Damian was supposed to be dead, I read some other interpretations that say its supposed to symbolize Bruce thinking he failed Damian as a father, paralleling his relationship with his own father, as a clue to whatever is going on with Flashpoint Thomas.

    As for Doomsday Clock, even despite its delays, the final issue is still on track to come out in July, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it'll be out around the same time as #75, which is supposed to be the next big turning point in the story. How it will end up effecting all the other books, especially considering many of them had fairly recent relaunches, I have no idea.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  13. #58
    Fantastic Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    But I wonder if it lines up with issue 75 because of all of these Knightmare issues, because originally Doomsday Clock was supposed to end like 3 months ago

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    But I wonder if it lines up with issue 75 because of all of these Knightmare issues, because originally Doomsday Clock was supposed to end like 3 months ago
    I think they knew Doomsday Clock was gonna be a bimonthly book since January of last year, so they've known for a while July 2019 was gonna be their end date.

    And we do know that despite King having a plan for each of his milestone issues, he has tweaked his plans fairly late in the game several times, like the Heroes In Crisis crossover, which was done because King was busy with another project, not to mention there's also #101-105 which is an epilogue for his run because he wants 100 of the issues to be written by him (since 5 of them weren't)
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  15. #60
    Fantastic Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I think they knew Doomsday Clock was gonna be a bimonthly book since January of last year, so they've known for a while July 2019 was gonna be their end date.

    And we do know that despite King having a plan for each of his milestone issues, he has tweaked his plans fairly late in the game several times, like the Heroes In Crisis crossover, which was done because King was busy with another project, not to mention there's also #101-105 which is an epilogue for his run because he wants 100 of the issues to be written by him (since 5 of them weren't)
    I never realized he wanted to write 100 issues, do you know what his original plans were for Heroes in Crisis?

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