Batman #62 Discussion

[Scott Taylor]

I'm not convinced Pyg was in this issue at all, though.

You mean Pyg doesn't have the ability to morph himself into Damien at will? Huh.

[Nick Miller]

it really is amazing how bad this has gotten

King should keep his bad poetry in his journal. Locked. In a safe.

[Arctic Cyclist]

I'm not convinced Pyg was in this issue at all, though.

That's because it wasn't Pyg. It was Bruce tripping on some grade A acid and hallucinating that Damian was Professor Pyg. If you look at the body language, particularly during the fight scenes, and compare it to when Damian fought the fake Batman in Death of the family you'll realize it's the same choreography.

The butcher knife is the antidote Damian is trying to inject. The bow Pyg gives is the same one Damian has given Nightwing when he's appeared in the Seely run. The carving off a piece of the hog corpse and garishly eating it before stabbing it with the knife while talking was Damian taking the antidote to show it's safe and reloading another dose for Bruce.

His throwing the quote about the little pigs back at Bruce is actually pretty tame for a pissed off 13 year old, any 13 year old. Insanely tame for one whose father has just ranted about being still upset over being left at the alter, which in universe means Bruce was more traumatized by that than Damian's death. Hence his little huff as soon as Bruce starts sobering up, especially in light of how Bruce has never really let Damian in despite Damian's efforts, but let Selina in despite their history of her betraying him and choosing one more job, another scheme, one more break in over going straight.

Basically this issue is the explanation for what's happened/happening over in Teen Titans where Damian has started crossing lines, albeit nothing Bruce hasn't done himself in canon multiple times including Rebirth, and would rather die than speak to or see his father again. Just like the failed wedding is why Bruce went overboard on Jason, which if everyone is paying attention, what happened there and in Batman with the Penguin is also part of Bane's overarching plan that started with bombing the orphanage that Selina and Holly grew up in.

[Naked Bat]

You mean Pyg doesn't have the ability to morph himself into Damien at will? Huh.

That's because it wasn't Pyg. It was Bruce tripping on some grade A acid and hallucinating that Damian was Professor Pyg. If you look at the body language, particularly during the fight scenes, and compare it to when Damian fought the fake Batman in Death of the family you'll realize it's the same choreography.

The butcher knife is the antidote Damian is trying to inject. The bow Pyg gives is the same one Damian has given Nightwing when he's appeared in the Seely run. The carving off a piece of the hog corpse and garishly eating it before stabbing it with the knife while talking was Damian taking the antidote to show it's safe and reloading another dose for Bruce.

His throwing the quote about the little pigs back at Bruce is actually pretty tame for a pissed off 13 year old, any 13 year old. Insanely tame for one whose father has just ranted about being still upset over being left at the alter, which in universe means Bruce was more traumatized by that than Damian's death. Hence his little huff as soon as Bruce starts sobering up, especially in light of how Bruce has never really let Damian in despite Damian's efforts, but let Selina in despite their history of her betraying him and choosing one more job, another scheme, one more break in over going straight.

Basically this issue is the explanation for what's happened/happening over in Teen Titans where Damian has started crossing lines, albeit nothing Bruce hasn't done himself in canon multiple times including Rebirth, and would rather die than speak to or see his father again. Just like the failed wedding is why Bruce went overboard on Jason, which if everyone is paying attention, what happened there and in Batman with the Penguin is also part of Bane's overarching plan that started with bombing the orphanage that Selina and Holly grew up in.

Guys, I know it's a trip, I know it's not really Pyg. I was being delicate with people claiming Pyg was off ^^

[Coco Loco]

That's because it wasn't Pyg. It was Bruce tripping on some grade A acid and hallucinating that Damian was Professor Pyg. If you look at the body language, particularly during the fight scenes, and compare it to when Damian fought the fake Batman in Death of the family you'll realize it's the same choreography.

The butcher knife is the antidote Damian is trying to inject. The bow Pyg gives is the same one Damian has given Nightwing when he's appeared in the Seely run. The carving off a piece of the hog corpse and garishly eating it before stabbing it with the knife while talking was Damian taking the antidote to show it's safe and reloading another dose for Bruce.

His throwing the quote about the little pigs back at Bruce is actually pretty tame for a pissed off 13 year old, any 13 year old. Insanely tame for one whose father has just ranted about being still upset over being left at the alter, which in universe means Bruce was more traumatized by that than Damian's death. Hence his little huff as soon as Bruce starts sobering up, especially in light of how Bruce has never really let Damian in despite Damian's efforts, but let Selina in despite their history of her betraying him and choosing one more job, another scheme, one more break in over going straight.

Basically this issue is the explanation for what's happened/happening over in Teen Titans where Damian has started crossing lines, albeit nothing Bruce hasn't done himself in canon multiple times including Rebirth, and would rather die than speak to or see his father again. Just like the failed wedding is why Bruce went overboard on Jason, which if everyone is paying attention, what happened there and in Batman with the Penguin is also part of Bane's overarching plan that started with bombing the orphanage that Selina and Holly grew up in.

Wow. Great post. Very thought-provoking and obviously well thought-out. We’ll see if you’re right!

[dietrich]

Nope. you seem upset tho.

I am. Cass should have been there in the Annual.

[dietrich]

That's because it wasn't Pyg. It was Bruce tripping on some grade A acid and hallucinating that Damian was Professor Pyg. If you look at the body language, particularly during the fight scenes, and compare it to when Damian fought the fake Batman in Death of the family you'll realize it's the same choreography.

The butcher knife is the antidote Damian is trying to inject. The bow Pyg gives is the same one Damian has given Nightwing when he's appeared in the Seely run. The carving off a piece of the hog corpse and garishly eating it before stabbing it with the knife while talking was Damian taking the antidote to show it's safe and reloading another dose for Bruce.

His throwing the quote about the little pigs back at Bruce is actually pretty tame for a pissed off 13 year old, any 13 year old. Insanely tame for one whose father has just ranted about being still upset over being left at the alter, which in universe means Bruce was more traumatized by that than Damian's death. Hence his little huff as soon as Bruce starts sobering up, especially in light of how Bruce has never really let Damian in despite Damian's efforts, but let Selina in despite their history of her betraying him and choosing one more job, another scheme, one more break in over going straight.

Basically this issue is the explanation for what's happened/happening over in Teen Titans where Damian has started crossing lines, albeit nothing Bruce hasn't done himself in canon multiple times including Rebirth, and would rather die than speak to or see his father again. Just like the failed wedding is why Bruce went overboard on Jason, which if everyone is paying attention, what happened there and in Batman with the Penguin is also part of Bane's overarching plan that started with bombing the orphanage that Selina and Holly grew up in.

I always enjoy your in-depth posts

I got that he was tripping and that it was Damian but I still expected Pyg to Pyg. I missed the Damian callbacks from B&R and Nightwing.

explains the hog.

Tom King does do his research and I owe this issue a second reading

[Scott Taylor]

Guys, I know it's a trip, I know it's not really Pyg. I was being delicate with people claiming Pyg was off ^^

Well that makes me feel better! I was worried that I was the one tripping

[Arctic Cyclist]

Guys, I know it's a trip, I know it's not really Pyg. I was being delicate with people claiming Pyg was off ^^

Well, you are one of the people who thinks Bane broke up the wedding instead of realizing that Bane instigated the entire courtship by arranging the destruction of the orphanage Selina and Holly were raised at in order to turn Holly into a killer and have Selina take the fall for her which in turn causes Bruce to overlook all of Selina's time as a mob boss. And that's far less subtle on a second read than this issue. So...yeah. I did assume you missed everything in this issue. My bad.

[Inversed]

Well, you are one of the people who thinks Bane broke up the wedding instead of realizing that Bane instigated the entire courtship by arranging the destruction of the orphanage Selina and Holly were raised at in order to turn Holly into a killer and have Selina take the fall for her which in turn causes Bruce to overlook all of Selina's time as a mob boss. And that's far less subtle on a second read than this issue. So...yeah. I did assume you missed everything in this issue. My bad.

While it is very likely at this point Bane was responsible for blowing up the orphanage considering he's apparently responsible for literally everything that's happened in the book, but to say that they ONLY got together because of this incident and that everything about their relationship was fake, is completely missing and ignoring everything else that has been going on between them. And looking at the way Tom King even talks about them completely negates this too.

[Arctic Cyclist]

While it is very likely at this point Bane was responsible for blowing up the orphanage considering he's apparently responsible for literally everything that's happened in the book, but to say that they ONLY got together because of this incident and that everything about their relationship was fake, is completely missing and ignoring everything else that has been going on between them. And looking at the way Tom King even talks about them completely negates this too.

Tom King is a noted troll who likes to throw out red herrings in interviews. Go back and reread his run without shipper glasses on. Read it like you are watching True Detective where every line, every expression, every detail on page matters. Pay attention to the literature references. Match up the letters in I Am Bane and #50, and pay attention to the flashbacks. Note the positioning of paintings in conjunction to characters who have been exposed to potent mind control and then Bruce's actions. Their relationship isn't fake, but it's not what people think it is. There's a reason why, besides Pyg and Damian's disturbing psychosexual relationship that makes Batman and the Joker seem tame, that Bruce is ranting about Pygmalion and Galatea in regards to his and Selina's relationship that goes beyond the fact that Damian is both a version of Pinocchio (aka the anti-Galatea) and explicitly not Bruce's creation.

Realizing that I needed to treat Tom King's Batman like an HBO show and not take anything at face value has increased my enjoyment of the series. Nothing is what it seems, everything matters, and if you didn't catch that Selina started doubting the wisdom of the engagement when she walked out of Talia's home and realized that Damian was alive and going to be living with her by law for five more years, you clearly can't read facial expressions or have never dated as an adult. Or both. As I've said in other threads, there were red flags flying in every issue, and all of them were Selina questioning whether or not she could handle the relationship they would have and all it would cost her.

[dietrich]

Well, you are one of the people who thinks Bane broke up the wedding instead of realizing that Bane instigated the entire courtship by arranging the destruction of the orphanage Selina and Holly were raised at in order to turn Holly into a killer and have Selina take the fall for her which in turn causes Bruce to overlook all of Selina's time as a mob boss. And that's far less subtle on a second read than this issue. So...yeah. I did assume you missed everything in this issue. My bad.

No you misunderstand @Naked Bat was talking about me. I made the comment about Pyg being off.

He was trying not to spoil me.

There's no need for holding back literally the 1st page of this thread already touches on it.
I knew before buying this issue that Pyg was Damian discussed on the Damian thread which is why I decided to get it. [dropped Batman after Dick was shot]

Knowing that I still expected the characterisation to be more like the real thing.
I read it again and still don't like the issue but I do appreciate it more 2nd time with the knowledge of that fight and once you said which fight I saw why he picked it. Thought went into that and I appreciate that.

Nursery rhymes, the whole Pygmalion thing and boys to the slaughter metaphors I still didn't like this or this butcher Pyg. He felt like the Robinatron from Nightwing must die.

[Mataza]

I am. Cass should have been there in the Annual.

Well, she was mentioned along with duke. Nobody else was, so its not that bad.

[Inversed]

Tom King is a noted troll who likes to throw out red herrings in interviews. Go back and reread his run without shipper glasses on. Read it like you are watching True Detective where every line, every expression, every detail on page matters. Pay attention to the literature references. Match up the letters in I Am Bane and #50, and pay attention to the flashbacks. Note the positioning of paintings in conjunction to characters who have been exposed to potent mind control and then Bruce's actions. Their relationship isn't fake, but it's not what people think it is. There's a reason why, besides Pyg and Damian's disturbing psychosexual relationship that makes Batman and the Joker seem tame, that Bruce is ranting about Pygmalion and Galatea in regards to his and Selina's relationship that goes beyond the fact that Damian is both a version of Pinocchio (aka the anti-Galatea) and explicitly not Bruce's creation.

Realizing that I needed to treat Tom King's Batman like an HBO show and not take anything at face value has increased my enjoyment of the series. Nothing is what it seems, everything matters, and if you didn't catch that Selina started doubting the wisdom of the engagement when she walked out of Talia's home and realized that Damian was alive and going to be living with her by law for five more years, you clearly can't read facial expressions or have never dated as an adult. Or both. As I've said in other threads, there were red flags flying in every issue, and all of them were Selina questioning whether or not she could handle the relationship they would have and all it would cost her.

There's a difference between "lying about plot points" and "stating your feelings for certain characters". King has made it abundantly clear how much he cares about Bruce and Selina both as characters and together, and no matter what elements you choose to read and examine regarding the story, its pretty clear in the text how his feelings are.

And honestly the whole "forgetting about Selina being a mob boss" has less to do with Bruce overlooking it because of Bane's ultimate scheme, and more to do with EVERYONE choosing to forget. King may reference events from other books from time to time, but he's also not been shy to completely ignore other stories to just do his own thing. The whole of Catwoman's New 52 book not mattering is one of those decisions. Plus don't forget, Holly being this supposed super important character to Selina who literally comes out of nowhere in his run (I know she has a Pre-New 52 counterpart)

The start of the relationship very well could have come from a manipulation (even though Bruce's decision to propose was inspired by Thomas Wayne saying he should be happy and even though we know he is working for Bane until they explain otherwise there is no way Bane would have had any influence on the events of The Button going on as they were occurring at that moment), but to take away the characters actual feelings about the relationship, and how much they really do want to be together, is less re-contextualizing or re-interpreating, and more just re-writing.

#63 is apparently going to be following up on their feelings toward each other as part of the next "Knightmare", so we can see where said feelings end up developing.

[Naked Bat]

Well, you are one of the people who thinks Bane broke up the wedding instead of realizing that Bane instigated the entire courtship by arranging the destruction of the orphanage Selina and Holly were raised at in order to turn Holly into a killer and have Selina take the fall for her which in turn causes Bruce to overlook all of Selina's time as a mob boss. And that's far less subtle on a second read than this issue. So...yeah. I did assume you missed everything in this issue. My bad.

I don't know what makes you think that, as I never claimed anything like that. I've been on board with King's run since I am suicide (I didn't like I am Gotham that much, though I suspect I will like it more when all is said and done), and I like how he plays the long game, just like Morrison did.