Cassandra Cain: Batgirl, Black Bat, Orphan Appreciation 2019

[millernumber1]

And importantly, after they'd already completely wrecked him.

I mean...they are in the Batcave. And while it's not Thomas's yet (obviously), he's still been Batman for enough time to give himself an edge once he's taken the measure of his enemies.

[Frontier]

Just seems like a classic case of jobbing to me.

[millernumber1]

Just seems like a classic case of jobbing to me.

I do agree that having the family beat Thomas so thoroughly only for him to stand up and beat them all does seem incongruous...but we've seen Bruce take that kind of beating, stand up, and win before. I think that's what King is going for - Thomas may be evil, but he's still Batman, and that means more than just the cape and cowl.

[Caivu]

I do agree that having the family beat Thomas so thoroughly only for him to stand up and beat them all does seem incongruous...but we've seen Bruce take that kind of beating, stand up, and win before. I think that's what King is going for - Thomas may be evil, but he's still Batman, and that means more than just the cape and cowl.

But Thomas has never been anywhere close to this good of a fighter before, has he? And he still beat up Cass, who should have been able to take him on her own. If Bruce can't do that, Thomas certainly can't.

[Frontier]

King has always had a bad habit, in my opinion, of letting the story or "moments" he wants to have override basic plot sense.

[Caivu]

King has always had a bad habit, in my opinion, of letting the story or "moments" he wants to have override basic plot sense.

This. Plot or character sense. I don't understand why more people aren't bothered by such a lack of consistency.

Like... if a writer wants those types of moments, why is it so much to ask that they also make sense?

[millernumber1]

But Thomas has never been anywhere close to this good of a fighter before, has he? And he still beat up Cass, who should have been able to take him on her own. If Bruce can't do that, Thomas certainly can't.

I've not read much of Thomas. I just assume that he's Batman. And even though I 100% support "Cass is the best fighter," I think any Batman, in his cave, will have things that even the playing field, especially as we see Thomas playing the Batfamily against each other once he takes the initiative.

There's also the thematic thing that Thomas said in #69 - "When you think you've won, you've already lost." Very true for our heroes this time.

This. Plot or character sense. I don't understand why more people aren't bothered by such a lack of consistency.

Like... if a writer wants those types of moments, why is it so much to ask that they also make sense?

I mean, obviously I disagree about the plot or character sense thing. There are some times where it's bothered me - Deathstroke vs. Deadshot in The War of Jokes and Riddles is definitely one of them, Barbara's voice in most of his writing. But I would argue the consistency is largely interpreted.

I would turn the question to - "Do you really think that fans of King's writing think that what he's doing doesn't make sense, and love the nonsense?" Or possibly, maybe it does make sense to them.

[Blue22]

Yeah, I'm not buying in a million years that an aged and beaten Thomas Wayne can defeat Cass by himself. Let alone Cass, Kate, Helena, Damian, and the rest of the family. Between that and "The family knew I didn't really mean to punch Tim", this whole issue just screams "bullshit".

[The Cool Thatguy]

King has always had a bad habit, in my opinion, of letting the story or "moments" he wants to have override basic plot sense.

Agreed. Internal logic isn't his strong suit, IMO

[millernumber1]

Yeah, I'm not buying in a million years that an aged and beaten Thomas Wayne can defeat Cass by himself. Let alone Cass, Kate, Helena, Damian, and the rest of the family. Between that and "The family knew I didn't really mean to punch Tim", this whole issue just screams "bullshit".

I still say it's the Batcave. But that aside, it's not really about Cass anymore here.

[Caivu]

I've not read much of Thomas. I just assume that he's Batman. And even though I 100% support "Cass is the best fighter," I think any Batman, in his cave, will have things that even the playing field, especially as we see Thomas playing the Batfamily against each other once he takes the initiative.

But he wasn't using anything in the cave. What could he have even used?

There's also the thematic thing that Thomas said in #69 - "When you think you've won, you've already lost." Very true for our heroes this time.

That's an eyeroll-worthy bullshit quote, to be frank. You don't lose once you think you've won, only if you let your guard down because of it. And their guard wasn't down. Not to a degree that a beaten-up old man should have been an issue. Like, c'mon, these characters aren't that stupid.

I would turn the question to - "Do you really think that fans of King's writing think that what he's doing doesn't make sense, and love the nonsense?" Or possibly, maybe it does make sense to them.

Then how does it make sense? Because it looks to me and a lot of others like a big messy pile of illogical, stupid guff.

[millernumber1]

But he wasn't using anything in the cave. What could he have even used?

That's an eyeroll-worthy bullshit quote, to be frank. You don't lose once you think you've won, only if you let your guard down because of it. And their guard wasn't down. Not to a degree that a beaten-up old man should have been an issue. Like, c'mon, these characters aren't that stupid.

Then how does it make sense? Because it looks to me and a lot of others like a big messy pile of illogical, stupid guff.

We barely see any of the fight where Thomas wins. I think it's perfectly plausible for him to have used the cave.

I think the point isn't that you let your guard down - it's that you assumed from the beginning that everyone was part of your plan, not knowing that someone else might have had a plan, too. A bit keikaku, sure, but I like it.

Also, the Batfamily clearly HAD let their guard down to let Huntress shoot and not assume Thomas would be Batman and catch it. And also not to remember that Thomas has fewer compunctions than Bruce, and would use a lethal weapon against Tim.

I think the whole run does make a lot of sense, but that's more a question for the King Batman thread, not Cass's thread.

To give my own thoughts on how Thomas could beat Cass - after what Tynion did with her in Tec, it's a bit hard to say "Cass beat an army of League of Shadows ninja, which I assume are all at least pretty skilled, even if they're not Batfamily skilled". But my argument would be that Thomas 1) uses the cave - gadgets, geography, etc, that he's set up specifically for combat in the cave - with villains traipsing all over it, I think he almost certainly has done that, and 2) used the rest of the family to block his own movements so she can't read him as well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I still say it's the Batcave. But that aside, it's not really about Cass anymore here.

The Batcave isn't a magic location that gives a +4 buff to Batman.

It's a cave. Where Batman works.

That's it.

And Thomas sure as hell wouldn't know it better than two Robins, Duke and the rest.

[Frontier]

The Batcave isn't a magic location that gives a +4 buff to Batman.

It's a cave. Where Batman works.

That's it.

And Thomas sure as hell wouldn't know it better than two Robins, Duke and the rest.

It's not even his Batcave anyways.

[millernumber1]

The Batcave isn't a magic location that gives a +4 buff to Batman.

It's a cave. Where Batman works.

That's it.

And Thomas sure as hell wouldn't know it better than two Robins, Duke and the rest.

Pretty sure it's exactly that. At least, that's how Snyder treated it.

It's not even his Batcave anyways.

Thomas has been there for several weeks, at least. Being Batman, he's made his own modifications.