Cassandra Cain: Batgirl, Black Bat, Orphan Appreciation 2019

[gregpersons]

I am the type of fan who prefers at faithfulness to the source material, especially if I'm a fan of the source material. I think Cass in the film could be a good character, but she isn't Cass, so I am annoyed they're using the name.

Sure. A preference is a preference, and obviously you're entitled to like what you like! No debate there.

What is it about Movie Cass specifically that annoys you to that point, from what we've seen so far?

[millernumber1]

Sure. A preference is a preference, and obviously you're entitled to like what you like! No debate there.

What is it about Movie Cass specifically that annoys you to that point, from what we've seen so far?

Her style and her general attitude of confused wannabe cool kid. Also, her age is a huge issue. I know you could argue that it's a prequel to her time as Batgirl/Orphan, but that's the whole point - when she met the Batfamily, she became Batgirl/Orphan, at that specific age.

[AmiMizuno]

I wonder if the actress playing her in the Birds of Prey might be used again for a Batgirl movie

[gregpersons]

Her style and her general attitude of confused wannabe cool kid. Also, her age is a huge issue. I know you could argue that it's a prequel to her time as Batgirl/Orphan, but that's the whole point - when she met the Batfamily, she became Batgirl/Orphan, at that specific age.

Yeah, this is where I feel like divergences can be additive to a character's development. Starting out as a confused kid in need of guidance seems like a core Cass trait... her confusion is built into her backstory. That she finds a temporary identity in "wannabe cool" makes some sense to me, and doesn't seem like a step down from "courier for Oracle during NML." I don't have any issue with her age, I've always assumed she was a teenager like the other Robin/Batgirls. The only other big divergence I see from the trailer is that Cass can talk, but as I said, I really never liked that she was mute, and maybe at some point I'll explain why in more detail.

IMO the core soul of Cassandra Cain is that she becomes a "silent, stealthy, deadly ninja, trained by her evil father, who now fights (non-lethally) for the good guys" which seems to be potentially on track for Movie Cass to fulfill.

Not saying you have to like Movie Cass, just offering a lens through which it's possible to view her as a true version of the character and not an abomination. (Nor am I championing the movie, it might well be garbage like Suicide Squad and maybe that's the most likely outcome, again just looking for the bright side of it)

[lowfyr]

I just hope that the movie means, we will see more of Cass in the Comics. Dream would be a solo, but that would mean a changing of the Management i fear.

[Frontier]

Yeah, this is where I feel like divergences can be additive to a character's development. Starting out as a confused kid in need of guidance seems like a core Cass trait... her confusion is built into her backstory. That she finds a temporary identity in "wannabe cool" makes some sense to me, and doesn't seem like a step down from "courier for Oracle during NML." I don't have any issue with her age, I've always assumed she was a teenager like the other Robin/Batgirls. The only other big divergence I see from the trailer is that Cass can talk, but as I said, I really never liked that she was mute, and maybe at some point I'll explain why in more detail.

IMO the core soul of Cassandra Cain is that she becomes a "silent, stealthy, deadly ninja, trained by her evil father, who now fights (non-lethally) for the good guys" which seems to be potentially on track for Movie Cass to fulfill.

Not saying you have to like Movie Cass, just offering a lens through which it's possible to view her as a true version of the character and not an abomination. (Nor am I championing the movie, it might well be garbage like Suicide Squad and maybe that's the most likely outcome, again just looking for the bright side of it)

I just don't see any intention of honoring Cass's character in the comics from what we see in the movie. From all accounts she's this wisecracking, streetwise, girl with an attitude who ends up becoming Harley's sidekick, more or less.

Nothing could be farther from the character in the comics. Especially the Harley dynamic, blegh.

It seems like you could replace her with, like, Holly Robinson or even Harper Row and the character would be seemingly more comic-accurate.

And I think her silent nature is a major point of characterization, especially with how it impacts her communication with other characters and her attempt to grow out of it.

I just hope that the movie means, we will see more of Cass in the Comics. Dream would be a solo, but that would mean a changing of the Management i fear.

I would be for this if I wasn't also worried they would change her character to match the movie.

[millernumber1]

I just don't see any intention of honoring Cass's character in the comics from what we see in the movie. From all accounts she's this wisecracking, streetwise, girl with an attitude who ends up becoming Harley's sidekick, more or less.

Nothing could be farther from the character in the comics. Especially the Harley dynamic, blegh.

It seems like you could replace her with, like, Holly Robinson or even Harper Row and the character would be seemingly more comic-accurate.

And I think her silent nature is a major point of characterization, especially with how it impacts her communication with other characters and her attempt to grow out of it.

I would be for this if I wasn't also worried they would change her character to match the movie.

Well said, Frontier. I don't think this character will be an "abomination," but she's not Cass by any serious argument.

[Frontier]

Well said, Frontier. I don't think this character will be an "abomination," but she's not Cass by any serious argument.

Yeah, I don't want to come off as "that guy" who isn't open to new interpretations, but when the interpretation doesn't seem to resemble the character in any major form, I take issue with it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, I don't want to come off as "that guy" who isn't open to new interpretations, but when the interpretation doesn't seem to resemble the character in any major form, I take issue with it.

I don't understand the issue with the BoP movie.

I mean, its only using minority characters to prop up the whitest girl ever, who's secret origin is 'really bad taste in boy friends'.

*cough*

At this point, I bet Cass' character could have better been fulfilled by Steph, but the directors were like 'We need another minority! Who can we pigeon hole?'

[gregpersons]

Well, the Birds of Prey film is written by a woman, and directed by a woman of Chinese-American descent. I think they probably were not looking to pigeon-hole minority characters. It seems more likely they'd simply like to be inclusive, and DC's roster of characters who are women of color is a short list.

Besides the film, how many other Cassandra stories are created by women? Devin Grayson for a bit, right? And I think Gail Simone briefly? How many stories written by women of color, or people with disabilities, since her muteness is central to her canonical comic book? There is a YA book/comic in that series about Cass that's upcoming, probably because DC is realizing that they should be expanding their minority characters instead of cutting them down.

I don't see how Cass in the trailer is a disservice to the character? It's different!! I am not seeing how it's worse. There are so, so many examples of comic book Cass that are infantilizing, reductive, cliche as hell, and just downright insulting. Was it in Batman Eternal when Steph is saying she has the mind of a child or something like that?

I think this is the reality: Cassandra Cain is a cool costume and a badass-level powerset in search of a character. The amount of times Cass has been written well is fewer than the amount of times she's been written to have the personality of an anime body pillow. She's Asian so of course she's the best martial artist. She's Asian and female, so of course she is submissive, silent, naive. It seems soooo cynical to me. "Our audience probably loves the idea of an Asian girlfriend. Here's that fantasy as the new Batgirl."

In the right hands, her speech disability is a fascinating trait with great story potential, but it also seems difficult to play over the long run and for the most part, was always handled clumsily. This is true of Batgirl 1 / Babs / Oracle, though she had more storytime and opportunities for some emotional nuance for her paralysis. Still, that too was mostly clumsy, clearly the result of writers without direct first or second-hand experience with a comparable disability.

Understand — I quite like the Bat Family of the NML period, when Cass was Batgirl. I was in high school at that time, the perfect age for it, so that has felt like the ideal Bat Fam for me, in many ways.

But looking at it now — this truly was an era of "fridging" female superheroes. It's deep rooted. I don't remember anybody complaining at the time, or even citing the Batbooks as examples of fridging — there were unfortunately even worse examples elsewhere. But think about it. The Batgirls on the team were the only ones with disabilities — and these disabilities don't hinder their use as crime-fighting tools to be used by Batman, it only hindered their ability to be a full, equal character.

The other female characters on the team Huntress and Spoiler are both bullied for reasons that also read as gendered. Huntress is too much, and Spoiler is not enough -- but neither are equal status with Nightwing and Robin. Catwoman had her own book, with its own issues (ha), but she was mostly removed from the Bat fam.

In the Knightfall era, Dr. Shondra Kinsolving was the rare black female character to appear in the series — or any superhero comic — and she ended up being a trope, literally just a tool to service Bruce and magically heal his back, then reduced to "the mind of a child" and forgotten. To be fair, #NotAllMen were fully-abled in this Bat-era. We also had Harold Walnutt, the mute slave who lives in the bat cave. Well, canonically he wasn't a "slave," per se... he was rescued from the Penguin's plantation, not purchased... He was just a servant whose payment was his lodging, and because he too has "the mind of a child" he's fine with this.

All of this is to say, there's room and here's the opportunity to empower Cassandra Cain as a character (not "empower her moveset"). Look at Barbara Gordon. How many personalities has she had, in and outside of comic books? Which one is right? 60s show? DCAU? Arkham? Burnside? New 52? DC Super Hero Girls? You can see the consistency in the core traits, even as the specific variation on her personality changes with the time/medium. Same goes for Dick Grayson or Bruce Wayne.

Having not seen the movie, I have no idea if Movie Cass is good or bad. I just don't think it's already decided that it could not be a serious version of the character, or potentially an improvement with some changes, especially having not seen the movie. I don't love that fandom in general has become more prejudiced, but I mostly blame the digital marketing cycle and the long build-ups to release.



I can already feel the cold eyes in the room from just from taking the temperature about the enthusiasm level. To be honest, the worst conversations I've had on message boards are usually around this topic — where I'm on the side pitching "I like this character but she should be written to be a person instead of an object" and then just getting submerged with objections on how that simply isn't possible, because canon.

So... I don't know that I will have much more to say beyond this! I don't think I am derailing the thread, this is all explicitly on-topic, but I don't want to try convincing anybody. What I'm saying is evident to you, or it isn't. I make sense, or I sound like a lunatic.

Thanks for reading? Thanks for reading.

[Jackalope89]

Adapting a character is one thing; you need a few tweaks here and there to make the character work on screen. Fair enough. But fully changing the character into something else besides what they were originally, keeping only the name the same, what's the point of calling that character by that name anymore?

[Malachi]

Well, the Birds of Prey film is written by a woman, and directed by a woman of Chinese-American descent. I think they probably were not looking to pigeon-hole minority characters. It seems more likely they'd simply like to be inclusive, and DC's roster of characters who are women of color is a short list.

Besides the film, how many other Cassandra stories are created by women? Devin Grayson for a bit, right? And I think Gail Simone briefly? How many stories written by women of color, or people with disabilities, since her muteness is central to her canonical comic book? There is a YA book/comic in that series about Cass that's upcoming, probably because DC is realizing that they should be expanding their minority characters instead of cutting them down.

I don't see how Cass in the trailer is a disservice to the character? It's different!! I am not seeing how it's worse. There are so, so many examples of comic book Cass that are infantilizing, reductive, cliche as hell, and just downright insulting. Was it in Batman Eternal when Steph is saying she has the mind of a child or something like that?

I think this is the reality: Cassandra Cain is a cool costume and a badass-level powerset in search of a character. The amount of times Cass has been written well is fewer than the amount of times she's been written to have the personality of an anime body pillow. She's Asian so of course she's the best martial artist. She's Asian and female, so of course she is submissive, silent, naive. It seems soooo cynical to me. "Our audience probably loves the idea of an Asian girlfriend. Here's that fantasy as the new Batgirl."

In the right hands, her speech disability is a fascinating trait with great story potential, but it also seems difficult to play over the long run and for the most part, was always handled clumsily. This is true of Batgirl 1 / Babs / Oracle, though she had more storytime and opportunities for some emotional nuance for her paralysis. Still, that too was mostly clumsy, clearly the result of writers without direct first or second-hand experience with a comparable disability.

Understand — I quite like the Bat Family of the NML period, when Cass was Batgirl. I was in high school at that time, the perfect age for it, so that has felt like the ideal Bat Fam for me, in many ways.

But looking at it now — this truly was an era of "fridging" female superheroes. It's deep rooted. I don't remember anybody complaining at the time, or even citing the Batbooks as examples of fridging — there were unfortunately even worse examples elsewhere. But think about it. The Batgirls on the team were the only ones with disabilities — and these disabilities don't hinder their use as crime-fighting tools to be used by Batman, it only hindered their ability to be a full, equal character.

The other female characters on the team Huntress and Spoiler are both bullied for reasons that also read as gendered. Huntress is too much, and Spoiler is not enough -- but neither are equal status with Nightwing and Robin. Catwoman had her own book, with its own issues (ha), but she was mostly removed from the Bat fam.

In the Knightfall era, Dr. Shondra Kinsolving was the rare black female character to appear in the series — or any superhero comic — and she ended up being a trope, literally just a tool to service Bruce and magically heal his back, then reduced to "the mind of a child" and forgotten. To be fair, #NotAllMen were fully-abled in this Bat-era. We also had Harold Walnutt, the mute slave who lives in the bat cave. Well, canonically he wasn't a "slave," per se... he was rescued from the Penguin's plantation, not purchased... He was just a servant whose payment was his lodging, and because he too has "the mind of a child" he's fine with this.

All of this is to say, there's room and here's the opportunity to empower Cassandra Cain as a character (not "empower her moveset"). Look at Barbara Gordon. How many personalities has she had, in and outside of comic books? Which one is right? 60s show? DCAU? Arkham? Burnside? New 52? DC Super Hero Girls? You can see the consistency in the core traits, even as the specific variation on her personality changes with the time/medium. Same goes for Dick Grayson or Bruce Wayne.

Having not seen the movie, I have no idea if Movie Cass is good or bad. I just don't think it's already decided that it could not be a serious version of the character, or potentially an improvement with some changes, especially having not seen the movie. I don't love that fandom in general has become more prejudiced, but I mostly blame the digital marketing cycle and the long build-ups to release.



I can already feel the cold eyes in the room from just from taking the temperature about the enthusiasm level. To be honest, the worst conversations I've had on message boards are usually around this topic — where I'm on the side pitching "I like this character but she should be written to be a person instead of an object" and then just getting submerged with objections on how that simply isn't possible, because canon.

So... I don't know that I will have much more to say beyond this! I don't think I am derailing the thread, this is all explicitly on-topic, but I don't want to try convincing anybody. What I'm saying is evident to you, or it isn't. I make sense, or I sound like a lunatic.

Thanks for reading? Thanks for reading.

I think you are lumping things togheter that have nothing really to do with each other. Concerning Cass that is. Other forum users and their comments are probably referring to stuff I haven't read.

Cass is half asian yes. Yes their exist sterotypes about that. You have to look at where Cass comes from. Her disabilites are important, perhaps more important, then her abilites. That's why the further you remove her from her nonspeaking socially akward/uninterested the more problems you are creating. She is not innocent so much that she is autistic. She will forever be hampered by this. Otherwise she loses the reason why she is so good at fighting. Her gift defines her so much more then other characters.

Cass shouldn't really be involved in love stories. Not because male writers and readers want to imagine themselves as the boyfirend but the fact that all the small physical aspects of love would be world upending for Cass. Where every move can read and predicted how do you go about with Sex? kisses? seduction? It would be immense and boring at the same time for her. No mystery all the akwardness.

Her fighting ability - while certainly a interesting forum fighting tool - is something DC can't handle. Maybe if someone like Denny O'neill where there and running everything with an iron cordination. Resurrecting Mark Gruenwald should be something for Dan Didio to look into. The problem is that Cass is so good at fighting because she has nothing else in her life. She has been denied a normal life but given a new life. If she can't beat say Babs at a fight then what does she got? Babs has all these other things going on. Family, intellect, social skills and so on. The fighting order of DC needs to be consistent to make Cassandra work. For her to give so many things up she needs to be somewhere in the top. But in a DC universe where one character can take a Tae-Bo class offpanel and then become a challenger Cass suffers.

Cass written as Cass wouldn't understand any of Harleys jokes but the slapstick ones. If she has references for them. Otherwise it's down to what just is funny on a more non-culturally level. If there exists one.

Submissive? no very stubborn and excentric(not the right word). Much like an autistic person can be. Naive? Yes and no. Naive to social interactions she doesn't understand, yes perhaps. Naive to physical matters? Lying, death, violence. No.

Silence is so much up to the artist. Or actor if portrayed. It's all about expressions. It's a challenge. Can't fault people for not going there.

I really liked one of her new aspects in Batman Eternal. Her love for dance. I feel that suits her perfectly and open ups new avenues.

Whatever Birds of Prey version we get shouldn't speak much. If she uses swearing it's very much like a parrot. Living on the streets after killing of course should harden her but to what level she can be hardened is depending on her way of reading body language. The same reason she fled from her father. The reason why fighting really isn't suited for her since she understands better then anyone the harm it does. All these things are what makes Cass work. Her ethnicity and gender are interesting but her disabilites are so much more interesting. Without them she quickly becomes someone else.

Hope you got something out of this post. Rambling as it is.

EDIT: Daphne Keen as X-23 in Logan I think was a good step in the right direction for a movie Cass. She is a good balance of violence and looking at the world through that lens.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, the Birds of Prey film is written by a woman, and directed by a woman of Chinese-American descent. I think they probably were not looking to pigeon-hole minority characters. It seems more likely they'd simply like to be inclusive, and DC's roster of characters who are women of color is a short list.

If white male writers can poorly write white, male characters, I have faith in women to poorly write women and for Chinese Americans to poorly depict Chinese Americans.

We all remember M. Night's Avatar. Excuse me, Airbender.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think this is the reality: Cassandra Cain is a cool costume and a badass-level powerset in search of a character. The amount of times Cass has been written well is fewer than the amount of times she's been written to have the personality of an anime body pillow. She's Asian so of course she's the best martial artist. She's Asian and female, so of course she is submissive, silent, naive. It seems soooo cynical to me. "Our audience probably loves the idea of an Asian girlfriend. Here's that fantasy as the new Batgirl." .

...yeah, no.

Cass, IMO, when she had her own series, did not get enough mileage out of it. She never had as much interaction with the Superman family as other Batgirls (yes, I know about Superboy) and other Bat writers seemed to treat her as a red headed step child. I can't remember many team ups with fellow Bats, in an era when they walked in and out of one another's books like crossing the street. Hell, before that crappy Beechen mini, I don't recall Cass having any major interaction with Nightwing, the second most important Bat.

But her series? That was exceptionally well written.

Her climb to the top as the most bad ass martial artist? That was earned, she didn't just snatch it.

I can think of several stand alone issues that displayed Cass' character, much like Batman's.

And her character and archetype, her struggles not just with reading, but nature vs. nurture, always hovered over the series.

Cass' series was ended unfairly, and her character deliberately butchered, but she never lacked for potential or depth.

And I see little of that in the trailers for BoP. I remember how Harley and Will Smith/Deadshot hijacked Suicide Squad, so I'm not hopeful here.

[millernumber1]

If white male writers can poorly write white, male characters, I have faith in women to poorly write women and for Chinese Americans to poorly depict Chinese Americans.

We all remember M. Night's Avatar. Excuse me, Airbender.

Well said. I'm with Christopher Priest - I think "casting" writers because they share the same sex, race, sexuality, or any other innate (as opposed to learned) trait is absolutely no guarantee of quality, and also more than a little insulting.