How should Harley Quinn be handled?

[Ascended]

Let Tom Taylor write her solo, for starters. Loved his depiction of her in Injustice.

I only read one issue of that; where Ollie captures her and takes her to the "Arrow Cave." But I did like what I saw. I'd be fine with him taking over the book at some point.

I don't mind that Harley is mercurial, chaotic, and personally inconsistent. What I mind is that the heroes - who are not, as a rule, mercurial, chaotic, and inconsistent - treat her as if whatever she's acting like in a specific story is "who she is" in general. I'd expect a superhero to say "yes, you're acting charming and friendly today, Harley Quinn, but you are a sociopathic murderer. I'm not going to let my guard down, I am going to treat you like the violent, dangerous person you are, I'm going to take you in and make sure you stay locked up, and I'm not going to coddle, hug, and be oh-so-amused by you because today you decided it would be a fun day to play nice, even though yesterday you murdered seven people by smashing their skulls in with a hammer."

This is where you can really see the corporate influence, I think. By rights, most heroes should be a little sympathetic to her; on a few levels she's the victim. But despite that excuse, she's still killed and maimed and committed who knows how many crimes on her own, and her body count rises with almost every issue, sometimes by a staggering amount. But she's raw money and DC wants to be able to stick her in the same book as their big name heroes so we get really ill-conceived crap where, for reasons, people like Diana decide to ignore Harley's past. It pisses me off to, but I suppose I've just accepted the fact that the marketing and merchandising is going to beat out a solid narrative every time.

Maybe so. I've never really read her solo book but maybe they are true to the character in a way I'm not giving them credit for, but with how that version has been re-integrated and treated in the DCU proper just doesn't ring true to me.

Well, I know Harley isn't terribly popular here and I know that while Im not a huge fan, I'm still a bigger fan than the average CBR poster. But I think her solo has done a fair job of building on her narrative and keeping her recognizable. She's not the same character she was twenty years ago, but she's still the same deep down; still a happy little psycho who pretends to be much dumber than she is, and laughs with tears in her eyes.

I don't really see it as being relatively organic, if only because I don't see Post-Crisis Harley and her character development as being the same as New 52 Harley, or New 52 Harley going into the Palmiotti and Conner Harley.

The New52 Suicide Squad stuff was total rubbish. At least the early stuff; I dropped the book after the whole "Harley sticks Joker's rotting face on Deadshot so they can make out" issue. But if you cut that mistake out, you actually end up with a relatively solid (but far from straight) line for her character, where most inconsistencies are easily handwaved by looking at real women who have gone through the kind of abuse Harls has.

I myself can look at the current Harley (or as current as I am, which is several months out of date now) and see how the Harley we first got from the cartoon could become the Harley we have now in the comics. But then, I've known women who changed far more than that after escaping an abusive relationship so maybe I accept more wiggle room in the characterization than most.

And ultimately, until she stops making money for DC, they have no reason to want to change her so the point is kinda moot anyway.

[Frontier]

Let Tom Taylor write her solo, for starters. Loved his depiction of her in Injustice.

I think he writes her well, she just falls into that "obvious Tom Taylor pet character" status, which I think has become more appparent the more Injustice Taylor has written.

This is where you can really see the corporate influence, I think. By rights, most heroes should be a little sympathetic to her; on a few levels she's the victim. But despite that excuse, she's still killed and maimed and committed who knows how many crimes on her own, and her body count rises with almost every issue, sometimes by a staggering amount. But she's raw money and DC wants to be able to stick her in the same book as their big name heroes so we get really ill-conceived crap where, for reasons, people like Diana decide to ignore Harley's past. It pisses me off to, but I suppose I've just accepted the fact that the marketing and merchandising is going to beat out a solid narrative every time.

I think this would be less of an issue if they just treated her like a Supervillain again.

It's not going to hurt her popularity any, as many Supervillains can attest, but somehow female villains are the ones who get hit with the "attempt at permanent redemption" button because of their popularity.

The New52 Suicide Squad stuff was total rubbish. At least the early stuff; I dropped the book after the whole "Harley sticks Joker's rotting face on Deadshot so they can make out" issue. But if you cut that mistake out, you actually end up with a relatively solid (but far from straight) line for her character, where most inconsistencies are easily handwaved by looking at real women who have gone through the kind of abuse Harls has.

I mean, that kind of stuff defined New 52 Harley and her characterization though, which is why I can't see the thoroughline between that and the Harley that we have now.

I myself can look at the current Harley (or as current as I am, which is several months out of date now) and see how the Harley we first got from the cartoon could become the Harley we have now in the comics. But then, I've known women who changed far more than that after escaping an abusive relationship so maybe I accept more wiggle room in the characterization than most.

And ultimately, until she stops making money for DC, they have no reason to want to change her so the point is kinda moot anyway.

I obviously can't match your experience with people who have escaped abusive relationships, so I can believe you when you say you find it believable, but just as someone who's followed Harley's character since her inception her current version just doesn't always ring true to me, even having moved away from Joker.

But such as things are in comics .

[Ascended]

I think he writes her well, she just falls into that "obvious Tom Taylor pet character" status, which I think has become more appparent the more Injustice Taylor has written.

I wouldnt know, I've only ever read that one issue, and a couple previews. But I did like what I saw.

I think this would be less of an issue if they just treated her like a Supervillain again.

I'd be fine with it. Hell, she basically still is, she just gets away with it for some reason (corporate).

I mean, that kind of stuff defined New 52 Harley and her characterization though, which is why I can't see the thoroughline between that and the Harley that we have now.

Oh, that's because there is no line. No, none of the New52 (until Palometti and Conner) made any sense with regards to what came before or what we have now. It's one of those eras you're supposed to skip over; like Frank Castle being a undead demon hunter. Comics, ammirite?

I obviously can't match your experience with people who have escaped abusive relationships, so I can believe you when you say you find it believable, but just as someone who's followed Harley's character since her inception her current version just doesn't always ring true to me, even having moved away from Joker.

Sh*t, Im no expert. I've just had to watch a few people go through it. Any my wife works with victims so I hear a little about that, if it's not breaking confidentiality or anything. And Im just saying, (outside of the New52) *I* can see still see classic Harley in what she is now. But YMMV of course. Hopefully I never come across as saying otherwise.

[babybats]

I think that even with a chaotic character like Harley, consistency is important. It's not enough to explain how sometimes she seems like a completely different person with "lol she's just crazy" because that's just...a stupid oversimplification of mental illness. Even the Joker is written with some kind of logic to his madness.

I also like how she's written by Taylor, in that the comedy is funny and not cringey like how she's sometimes written. But I find it stupid that Batman is totally cool working with her, one of the two people who murdered Lois and her unborn baby and started the whole thing in the first place. And we, as the audience, are supposed to just forget about that and see her as a hero. She's definitely writer's pet in that series and it does get really annoying.

[king81992]

Harley has become DC's latest attempt to have a proper villain turned hero archetype(compared to Marvel,D.C. has no characters who fill this role).But D.C.'s problem is that they always chose the wrong characters to fill this role or poorly execute the heel-face turn. There are other characters who would fill that archetype nicely if writers actually gave those characters a chance.

D.C. never wants to admit that the villain they want to sell as a hero did bad things. When Wolfman tried something similar with Deathstroke, he basically tried to remove all responsibility from Slade and basically pretended he did nothing wrong.

Some writers pretend that Harley did nothing wrong but most of them use the LOL crazy and random card to remove all responsibility from Harley.Or they blame all of her crimes on the Joker(he had some influence but Harley had some agency).

Harley could work as an anti hero/ anti villain if the writers would have her confront the things she's done and worked to overcome her sins. Right now it feels like everyone overlooks the crimes she committed and the writers are treating her with kid gloves.

[Compressorman]

I have always like HQ as a character but have not followed her stories with any regularity so I have this question. With her obviously evil past and the deeds she has done why is she not in prison? Other than the obvious 'because you cannot write about and make money off of a character that sits in a prison cell every day'

[Restingvoice]

I have always like HQ as a character but have not followed her stories with any regularity so I have this question. With her obviously evil past and the deeds she has done why is she not in prison? Other than the obvious 'because you cannot write about and make money off of a character that sits in a prison cell every day'

Officially she's in Suicide Squad, meaning she's under constant watch from the government and the threat of a neck bomb when she's not in a cell.

The other series is semi-canon fun stuff.

Oh, Heroes in Crisis? No idea.

[dropkickjake]

I think that Harley being a survivor of domestic abuse, both physical and emotional, can actually make her a compelling and timely character without having to totally sacrifice her fun and goofy demeanor.

But I do agree that she needs a bit more consistency. Her past can be seen as a result of the hold that Joker had on her, and thus she can be "healed or healing" from that past. She just needs to not continue to do wicked things. I like her as an anti-hero wildcard.

[Nite-Wing]

You know DC has been doing the same thing with Harley Quinn for the last 20 years
She starts as a bad gal
She breaks up with the Joker but is still bad, then begins to act more heroic and hang out with heroes
She stops being a criminal and just tries to do her own thing
Then for whatever reason she gets back with Joker and the cycle repeats itself.

You can tell a lot of people on this forum don't follow Harley or never had the reason to because she was absent from a lot of comics post crisis but even before the new 52
This was the same formula that DC used

This was in Detective Comics mind you but I guess during Dini's run nobody cared much back then or cared about Harley's redemption
In fact nobody made much of a fuss about any villain's redemption. Riddler, Two Face, Penguin they all had stints where they were considered to be "going legit"

Nowadays she's in a lot of comics and people seem to be overtly concerned about her crimes but let Jason and Damian kill whoever they want zero repercussions

Harley Quinn is a lot like Batman you can make a dark, psychotic prose story with her or you could do a silly lighthearted mushroom samba
DC is not beholden to one strict take on the character

[dropkickjake]

Harley Quinn is a lot like Batman you can make a dark, psychotic prose story with her or you could do a silly lighthearted mushroom samba
DC is not beholden to one strict take on the character

Lots of good takes in your post. I agree with this last point with one bit of disagreement. With Batman the tone changes, but his morality does not. He is either a hero in a light hearted silver age type story, or he is a hero in a super gritty Year One type tale, but he is always a hero.

Harley being a reformed villain who is somewhat always on the run from the law for her past crimes is great, but I think we should stick with the post-Joker characterization of her. Going back and forth isn't doing anyone any favors.

[Restingvoice]

You know DC has been doing the same thing with Harley Quinn for the last 20 years
She starts as a bad gal
She breaks up with the Joker but is still bad, then begins to act more heroic and hang out with heroes
She stops being a criminal and just tries to do her own thing
Then for whatever reason she gets back with Joker and the cycle repeats itself.

You can tell a lot of people on this forum don't follow Harley or never had the reason to because she was absent from a lot of comics post crisis but even before the new 52
This was the same formula that DC used

This was in Detective Comics mind you but I guess during Dini's run nobody cared much back then or cared about Harley's redemption
In fact nobody made much of a fuss about any villain's redemption. Riddler, Two Face, Penguin they all had stints where they were considered to be "going legit"

Nowadays she's in a lot of comics and people seem to be overtly concerned about her crimes but let Jason and Damian kill whoever they want zero repercussions

Harley Quinn is a lot like Batman you can make a dark, psychotic prose story with her or you could do a silly lighthearted mushroom samba
DC is not beholden to one strict take on the character

Jason was beaten up by Batman and driven out of Gotham even when the person he "killed" survived. Even then there are different camps on how he should be depicted. As a member of the family who's gone through redemption, or as out and proud anti hero or anti villain estranged from the family.

Batwoman went through a Batfam trial and was driven out of Gotham as well. Of course, they can't do a real trial because that would mean exposing her secret identity and dragged the other family secrets too.

Damian was the only one who wasn't kicked out but he was also ten years old. That was the last time he killed.

I'm aware of Detective Riddler and Harvey taking over for Batman during One Year Later. The Harley I'm aware of from Post Crisis was from Gotham City Sirens and if I'm not mistaken when Harley's with Ivy she's stronger against Joker.

I think most people who read comics know that the bomb in video games was out of character, but if they only saw that version and don't read comics, they won't know.

In a lot of comics is the keyword. The higher you go, the more scrutiny you'll get.

Jason's most popular story is when he's still committing murder following his return, no one is doubting that version is a villain or anti-villain, so he won't get as much scrutiny as Harley running free.

Also, as you said, people aren't aware her redemption story happened before, so for all people know she's suddenly treated special, and everywhere.

[Ascended]

I have always like HQ as a character but have not followed her stories with any regularity so I have this question. With her obviously evil past and the deeds she has done why is she not in prison? Other than the obvious 'because you cannot write about and make money off of a character that sits in a prison cell every day'

She's in the Suicide Squad, with her solo somehow happening "just after she serves her time" in some vague way that's canon but not completely in line with continuity. It's actually a breathe of fresh air to not have to worry about the rest of the DCU with her book.

So the argument is there that she did pay off her debt to society.

Besides, as someone else said, Jason Todd and plenty of other heroes and anti-heroes have body counts and no one ever worries about them paying for the murders they committed. Hell, Batman is guilty of tons of crimes from breaking and entering to blackmail to espionage to aggravated assault and you almost never hear anyone say anything about that.

[Ascended]

You know DC has been doing the same thing with Harley Quinn for the last 20 years
She starts as a bad gal
She breaks up with the Joker but is still bad, then begins to act more heroic and hang out with heroes
She stops being a criminal and just tries to do her own thing
Then for whatever reason she gets back with Joker and the cycle repeats itself.

I actually really like that Harley went back to the Joker so many times. That's often how it goes with domestic violence in the real world. Taken over the course of her entire publication history, Harley's story is surprisingly true to the source topic.

I think now, maybe, we're at a point where Harley is out of that cycle. She's become a big enough IP on her own that it won't do DC any favors by putting her back in Joker's shadow. Maybe she'll regress when/if her popularity dies, but I do think that it's possible we wont see her go through the cycle again.

[Frontier]

I actually really like that Harley went back to the Joker so many times. That's often how it goes with domestic violence in the real world. Taken over the course of her entire publication history, Harley's story is surprisingly true to the source topic.

It's also in-character.

It's part of her character that her love for Joker is completely insane and irrational (hence, "Mad Love"). Even when she hates him, she still kind of loves and obsesses over him.

I think now, maybe, we're at a point where Harley is out of that cycle. She's become a big enough IP on her own that it won't do DC any favors by putting her back in Joker's shadow. Maybe she'll regress when/if her popularity dies, but I do think that it's possible we wont see her go through the cycle again.

I think we're at a point where she's as likely to be paired with Joker as she is to be on her own.

It probably just depends on the property and what they're trying to do, so we can get Batman Ninja where she's Joker's Harley Quinn or DCSHG where she'll be an independent villain without Joker.

[Cmbmool]

THIS....THIS is a real reason why I was not a fan of Harley Quinn new 52 style and prefered her Pre-52 look and character as she was someone that was trying to move one from her life and trying to make something of it.

I would tone down her high sprung attitude and actions and even appearances. She doesn't need to be in the Suicide Squad all the time , but thanks to the movie....they're stuck with her in the on-going comic series.

There has to be a line with Harley Quinn and it feels that DC is jumping that line so many times it's hard to even root for her character overall.

Yeah that's been a problem.