So.... Jesus Is Getting His Own DC Comic

[kilderkin]

If nothing else, I'm sure it'll be better than Battle Pope. Anyone else remember that one? Wasn't that one of Robert Kirkman's first works?

This new title should be interesting; superheroes have dabbled with Messiah imagery for decades and a direct comparison could be rather fun to see. And the Vertigo banner as well as Russel gives me reason to believe this will be done with at least a degree of intelligence and skill.

If it offends you, don't read it. No one will mind.

I agree entirely that if it offends don't read it

Of course as one might have the right to create it, one has the right to object

In a fair society

[Ascended]

I wasn't aware society had become fair?

No, of course people can have whatever opinion they like and are welcome to dislike or be offended by something, as they see fit. And if this book offends them they should tell DC as much with their wallet and not buy it. I myself only have a passing interest in it, and whether I get that first issue will depend entirely on the size of my pull for that week and the mood I'm in when I step into the LCS.

Comics as modern myth is always an interesting topic to me, and my wife reads just about every Vertigo book DC publishes so it might find its way into my pull box whether I ask for it or not. But I'm not interested enough to order it.

But I do find this conversation interesting. In particular, for those who feel that this is perhaps crossing a line; do they feel the same about movies or novels or tv? Are they equally offended by the Lucifer show and the comic that spawned it? Or American Gods (I highly recommend the novel, btw) or Good Omens (which I recommend even more)? What about the Spectre? Or Zariel? Or Etrigan? Would they be as offended if this weren't their faith? Ive seen a few people mention the blowback if this were using Mohammad, or the lack of blowback if it were Thor or some other myth that's no longer practiced.

The Mohammad thing I get, because apparently it's quite insulting to show him in any kind of visual. I'm no expert but it seems to me that's as big a sin as.....I dunno what counts as a major, massive sin for christians? And the bigotry American Muslims have to suffer these days is crucible enough for anyone, so while a publisher has every right to lean into that taboo and show Mohammad, it'd be a dick thing to do (not to mention risky, considering what happened to Charlie Hebdo). Using dead religions certainly seems an easier way to avoid offending anyone, but that's also very well trod ground. If that's the case, does Norse myth even count as dead? Norse gods are largely just a topic for history books and literary classes (at least here in the West) but there are still people (and a growing number I hear?) who worship that pantheon; so if the goal is to not use any living religion Thor should be off the table too. Unless that only counts for religions with a lot of current followers, which wouldn't seem right nor fair to me.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I've spent my whole life watching my faith be misused and misunderstood and it's never hurt me and I figure, it's entertainment; nothing is off the table and nothing is meant to be taken seriously. But I do find the clash between entertainment and our "modern myth" of superheroes with religion a fascinating topic.

[kilderkin]

I wasn't aware society had become fair?

No, of course people can have whatever opinion they like and are welcome to dislike or be offended by something, as they see fit. And if this book offends them they should tell DC as much with their wallet and not buy it. I myself only have a passing interest in it, and whether I get that first issue will depend entirely on the size of my pull for that week and the mood I'm in when I step into the LCS.

Comics as modern myth is always an interesting topic to me, and my wife reads just about every Vertigo book DC publishes so it might find its way into my pull box whether I ask for it or not. But I'm not interested enough to order it.

But I do find this conversation interesting. In particular, for those who feel that this is perhaps crossing a line; do they feel the same about movies or novels or tv? Are they equally offended by the Lucifer show and the comic that spawned it? Or American Gods (I highly recommend the novel, btw) or Good Omens (which I recommend even more)? What about the Spectre? Or Zariel? Or Etrigan? Would they be as offended if this weren't their faith? Ive seen a few people mention the blowback if this were using Mohammad, or the lack of blowback if it were Thor or some other myth that's no longer practiced.

The Mohammad thing I get, because apparently it's quite insulting to show him in any kind of visual. I'm no expert but it seems to me that's as big a sin as.....I dunno what counts as a major, massive sin for christians? And the bigotry American Muslims have to suffer these days is crucible enough for anyone, so while a publisher has every right to lean into that taboo and show Mohammad, it'd be a dick thing to do (not to mention risky, considering what happened to Charlie Hebdo). Using dead religions certainly seems an easier way to avoid offending anyone, but that's also very well trod ground. If that's the case, does Norse myth even count as dead? Norse gods are largely just a topic for history books and literary classes (at least here in the West) but there are still people (and a growing number I hear?) who worship that pantheon; so if the goal is to not use any living religion Thor should be off the table too. Unless that only counts for religions with a lot of current followers, which wouldn't seem right nor fair to me.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I've spent my whole life watching my faith be misused and misunderstood and it's never hurt me and I figure, it's entertainment; nothing is off the table and nothing is meant to be taken seriously. But I do find the clash between entertainment and our "modern myth" of superheroes with religion a fascinating topic.

It's fair enough to let there be adequate retorts in this case

[kilderkin]

I wasn't aware society had become fair?

No, of course people can have whatever opinion they like and are welcome to dislike or be offended by something, as they see fit. And if this book offends them they should tell DC as much with their wallet and not buy it. I myself only have a passing interest in it, and whether I get that first issue will depend entirely on the size of my pull for that week and the mood I'm in when I step into the LCS.

Comics as modern myth is always an interesting topic to me, and my wife reads just about every Vertigo book DC publishes so it might find its way into my pull box whether I ask for it or not. But I'm not interested enough to order it.

But I do find this conversation interesting. In particular, for those who feel that this is perhaps crossing a line; do they feel the same about movies or novels or tv? Are they equally offended by the Lucifer show and the comic that spawned it? Or American Gods (I highly recommend the novel, btw) or Good Omens (which I recommend even more)? What about the Spectre? Or Zariel? Or Etrigan? Would they be as offended if this weren't their faith? Ive seen a few people mention the blowback if this were using Mohammad, or the lack of blowback if it were Thor or some other myth that's no longer practiced.

The Mohammad thing I get, because apparently it's quite insulting to show him in any kind of visual. I'm no expert but it seems to me that's as big a sin as.....I dunno what counts as a major, massive sin for christians? And the bigotry American Muslims have to suffer these days is crucible enough for anyone, so while a publisher has every right to lean into that taboo and show Mohammad, it'd be a dick thing to do (not to mention risky, considering what happened to Charlie Hebdo). Using dead religions certainly seems an easier way to avoid offending anyone, but that's also very well trod ground. If that's the case, does Norse myth even count as dead? Norse gods are largely just a topic for history books and literary classes (at least here in the West) but there are still people (and a growing number I hear?) who worship that pantheon; so if the goal is to not use any living religion Thor should be off the table too. Unless that only counts for religions with a lot of current followers, which wouldn't seem right nor fair to me.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I've spent my whole life watching my faith be misused and misunderstood and it's never hurt me and I figure, it's entertainment; nothing is off the table and nothing is meant to be taken seriously. But I do find the clash between entertainment and our "modern myth" of superheroes with religion a fascinating topic.

Some good points about the other characters you mentioned

Speaking only for myself, it's much more sensitive to use Christ or any aspect of the Trinity in this kind of way than say the more ephemeral parts of the faith.

The spectre and zauriel are entirely original fictions really, so that doesn't bother me nearly as much.

Using Christ in a fictional way always bothers me. Especially when it seems a distant rendering or use, as the solicit implied.

He is after all the central figure of the faith.

I can't speak for other faiths or beliefs, but I could at least appreciate it if they were similarly offended.

Response to offence must of course be tempered with civility.

Incidentally if you've seen any of my posts about Thor currently, I could certainly get my head around any active worshipper being offended.

[Ascended]

So what if it weren't your faith? What if this was about Buddha or Brahman, Shiva, or Krishna or whoever. The aliens that scientologists worship or whatever they get up to? I'm assuming it wouldn't bother a christian as much simply because it's not their faith (understandable), but would the christian also want those other gods kept out of entertainment for the sake of the other religion?

Here's a better question; *should* it be kept out of entertainment? We use entertainment to reflect upon our cultures and societies, and gameplay various situations and ideas out. Comedies say what everyone is thinking but is too polite to speak, and that criticism can be very important. That's one reason why rulers had fools. Entertainment can be a big part of self-reflection, if usually on a subconscious level. So looking at it like that, shouldn't we challenge our faith through our entertainment, to make sure we're still being true to ourselves and not becoming overly proud or self-involved?

Im just curious what people think. For reals, if I say something stupid or offensive, it's not intended. Like I said, I don't have a horse in this race and Im just interested in people's thoughts. I'm not as concerned or interested in the reality of god as I am the impact the belief has on a society.

[skyvolt2000]

Here's a better question; *should* it be kept out of entertainment? We use entertainment to reflect upon our cultures and societies, and gameplay various situations and ideas out. Comedies say what everyone is thinking but is too polite to speak, and that criticism can be very important. That's one reason why rulers had fools. Entertainment can be a big part of self-reflection, if usually on a subconscious level. So looking at it like that, shouldn't we challenge our faith through our entertainment, to make sure we're still being true to ourselves and not becoming overly proud or self-involved?

Im just curious what people think. For reals, if I say something stupid or offensive, it's not intended. Like I said, I don't have a horse in this race and Im just interested in people's thoughts. I'm not as concerned or interested in the reality of god as I am the impact the belief has on a society.

The issue we get is when someone or some group as we have seen want to dictate what is acceptable based on what they think.

Like how insulting creators is consider legit criticism by some. Because how DARE someone show a POC, LGBTQ or women as something "I don't approve of." This book is just one story about Jesus in a situation.

That LOL others have done various takes on from Family Guy to Black Jesus on Adult Swim to Preacher to God Friended Me to Joan of Arcadia to Touched by an Angel to Highway to Heaven.

[manwhohaseverything]

I wasn't aware society had become fair?

No, of course people can have whatever opinion they like and are welcome to dislike or be offended by something, as they see fit. And if this book offends them they should tell DC as much with their wallet and not buy it. I myself only have a passing interest in it, and whether I get that first issue will depend entirely on the size of my pull for that week and the mood I'm in when I step into the LCS.

Comics as modern myth is always an interesting topic to me, and my wife reads just about every Vertigo book DC publishes so it might find its way into my pull box whether I ask for it or not. But I'm not interested enough to order it.

But I do find this conversation interesting. In particular, for those who feel that this is perhaps crossing a line; do they feel the same about movies or novels or tv? Are they equally offended by the Lucifer show and the comic that spawned it? Or American Gods (I highly recommend the novel, btw) or Good Omens (which I recommend even more)? What about the Spectre? Or Zariel? Or Etrigan? Would they be as offended if this weren't their faith? Ive seen a few people mention the blowback if this were using Mohammad, or the lack of blowback if it were Thor or some other myth that's no longer practiced.

The Mohammad thing I get, because apparently it's quite insulting to show him in any kind of visual. I'm no expert but it seems to me that's as big a sin as.....I dunno what counts as a major, massive sin for christians? And the bigotry American Muslims have to suffer these days is crucible enough for anyone, so while a publisher has every right to lean into that taboo and show Mohammad, it'd be a dick thing to do (not to mention risky, considering what happened to Charlie Hebdo). Using dead religions certainly seems an easier way to avoid offending anyone, but that's also very well trod ground. If that's the case, does Norse myth even count as dead? Norse gods are largely just a topic for history books and literary classes (at least here in the West) but there are still people (and a growing number I hear?) who worship that pantheon; so if the goal is to not use any living religion Thor should be off the table too. Unless that only counts for religions with a lot of current followers, which wouldn't seem right nor fair to me.

I don't really have a horse in this race. I've spent my whole life watching my faith be misused and misunderstood and it's never hurt me and I figure, it's entertainment; nothing is off the table and nothing is meant to be taken seriously. But I do find the clash between entertainment and our "modern myth" of superheroes with religion a fascinating topic.

I think you don't mean to, but that is basically double standard. Muslims are minority, i get that. I also get that, they have suffered Bigotry. But that does not mean, i have to be afraid of their blasphemy law. Or follow any of the other stupid thing in their holy book or culture . Last time i checked, people in america live in democratic Republic, not some islamic state. Where the minorities are basically not given equal citizenship and abide by whatever holy book. Separation of church and state is one best thing that came out of the west, i would rather countries like america not be theocratic. Whether it is implemented formally or informally

Pardon me, this is not 12th century. Blasphemy is stupid. There are a lot of things in the bible that has not been taken seriously.so, same applies to muslims with quran. And i am not even sure, it is even in the quran.

And the other thing you mentioned krishna and buddha. Buddha is not a god, nor a prophet of any kind. He himself was semi agnostic.so satirising him is alright. Even if he was a god or something else go for it. As long as it does not have malicious intent.
As for Krishna/shiva.. Etc, hindus themselves critic and satirise their gods. Have been doing that since before christ was born. Heck there was this dude who declared himself para brahman. Nothing happened to him.hindus don't have a holy book. They have many books with different philosophies and ethics. Heck, some have more math than philosophy.
They don't have a prophet or commandments to follow. Nyaya(logic/rules) and tharka(debate/disscussion) is one of the core tenants of hinduism. Anything people want or think is right is accepted and anything that is not is rejected. Same for buddhists.
Ofcourse now a days hinduism is undergoing abrahamisation, which is damn shame.

So the same rule applies, as long as there is no malicious intent behind it. Also, it would be a bonus if it is a good joke. Even if something come of wrong, all they have to do is understand what came of wrong and apologise for it. You know, follow standards comedian and artists ethics.
And charlie hebdo fiasco is reprehensible and unjustifiable. It should be condemned. Nobody has to get killed for an opinion or artistic expression. Deserves some serious push back, not bowing down to the fear of it.

[kilderkin]

So what if it weren't your faith? What if this was about Buddha or Brahman, Shiva, or Krishna or whoever. The aliens that scientologists worship or whatever they get up to? I'm assuming it wouldn't bother a christian as much simply because it's not their faith (understandable), but would the christian also want those other gods kept out of entertainment for the sake of the other religion?

Here's a better question; *should* it be kept out of entertainment? We use entertainment to reflect upon our cultures and societies, and gameplay various situations and ideas out. Comedies say what everyone is thinking but is too polite to speak, and that criticism can be very important. That's one reason why rulers had fools. Entertainment can be a big part of self-reflection, if usually on a subconscious level. So looking at it like that, shouldn't we challenge our faith through our entertainment, to make sure we're still being true to ourselves and not becoming overly proud or self-involved?

Im just curious what people think. For reals, if I say something stupid or offensive, it's not intended. Like I said, I don't have a horse in this race and Im just interested in people's thoughts. I'm not as concerned or interested in the reality of god as I am the impact the belief has on a society.

I can only imagine how someone else might feel, unless they tell me

I would understand if they felt the same way but I get they might totally feel differently

I do appreciate some, possibly a significant portion of any faith may not care at all, about works of fiction derived from an active faith, I personally don't mind generally unless I think it's really missing the point (which I understand has some subjectivity involved) and I do feel what the solicit says does that

The work itself might not

[Korath]

I sure would have loved that kind of reaction when Hecate, an important part of many Wiccan Covens and Traditions' was used as a villain in JLD : The Witching Hour.

Or Loki, Thor, and any of the Pagan Gods and Goddesses, who are no less valid to whorship than the Monotheist one.

Just saying.

[kilderkin]

I sure would have loved that kind of reaction when Hecate, an important part of many Wiccan Covens and Traditions' was used as a villain in JLD : The Witching Hour.

Or Loki, Thor, and any of the Pagan Gods and Goddesses, who are no less valid to whorship than the Monotheist one.

Just saying.

I completely see that point of view, I'm no expert on such beliefs structures but as I pointed out, I can see how anyone from an active faith might feel the same

I have also tried to avoid saying religion as that dictates a certain number of worshippers which might make some feel I was excluding that view, which I'm not doing

Again only speaking for myself here

[manwhohaseverything]

I sure would have loved that kind of reaction when Hecate, an important part of many Wiccan Covens and Traditions' was used as a villain in JLD : The Witching Hour.

Or Loki, Thor, and any of the Pagan Gods and Goddesses, who are no less valid to whorship than the Monotheist one.

Just saying.

Dude i am a hindu. Yeah a devout one.i have no issues. As long as i don't see mal intent. But hey! That is just me.

[Korath]

I completely see that point of view, I'm no expert on such beliefs structures but as I pointed out, I can see how anyone from an active faith might feel the same

I have also tried to avoid saying religion as that dictates a certain number of worshippers which might make some feel I was excluding that view, which I'm not doing

Again only speaking for myself here

Well, to be honest, Comics today aren't really the ones which gives me pause, especially since I became "religious" (in the sense that I felt the need to have a religion and realized that I was basically Wiccan anyway) very recently. It just kind of funny so see Pagan Gods and goddesses treated as mythological characters and thus able to be used in various media in very altered forms, and not monotheist ones (from all three main Religions of the Book, really), at least not without some form of concern or outcry, at times.

Dude i am a hindu. Yeah a devout one.i have no issues. As long as i don't see mal intent. But hey! That is just me.

I support that. It's more that I'm sometimes sad that mainstream media still does some strange blends when it comes to, let's say, more peculiar faiths, I guess.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, to be honest, Comics today aren't really the ones which gives me pause, especially since I became "religious" (in the sense that I felt the need to have a religion and realized that I was basically Wiccan anyway) very recently. It just kind of funny so see Pagan Gods and goddesses treated as mythological characters and thus able to be used in various media in very altered forms, and not monotheist ones (from all three main Religions of the Book, really), at least not without some form of concern or outcry, at times.



I support that. It's more that I'm sometimes sad that mainstream media still does some strange blends when it comes to, let's say, more peculiar faiths, I guess.

I can see that. DC nor marvel does their research when it comes to hindu deities, in comics. They had rama in wonder woman. The guy is supposed be dead(in simple terms) or finished his duty as an avatar and merged back with vishnu(he is human, not a god. He is human avatar of vishnu without godly abilities. But, He is a great archer with magic arrows called shastras. So he is basically magical green arrow).

Hanuman i can get behind. He is not like rama. He is more like superman. The most powerful being on the planet(he is a vanara, a monkey). He was given many boons by all the gods including true immortality. For us, immortality is a boon not given even to the gods.he was given this boon because of his devotion to rama(a simple man) . They(gods) have a time limit even with an elixir of life.

virata roopa(thousand arm and head form) is like a manifestation of the universe with each person/head representing an aspect of existence. Rama never manifested it.

Rama is like (post crisis) clark kent without powers. He is a simple man that had to fight demons, both external and internal . Who has made mistakes but ultimately was trying to do the right thing. He created a utopia with flawed people (rama rajya).never broke his vows.but,always put his people before himself and even the people he loved. ultimately, gave up his body, and became one with vishnu. Him being infactuated with diana was stupidest thing ever, and the biggest joke ever. Rama had a vow to only love one woman. he married that woman. Her name was seetha, even when they split up Rama and seetha broke their vow to each other.

Chinese superman had adapted and depicted asian stories about different lokas(worlds) in our asian stories/concepts from daoism, Buddhism, hinduism and shintoism in a way that seemed it was researched on. (if remember it correctly)

But i get it,it is pretty alien to westerners. We don't take it seriously, ourselves (or atleast, we never used to) . Because for us gods, the God or para brahama as some hindus call it,Are not the ultimate value. For us moksha, nirvana in Buddhism is the ultimate value. Some of our philosophy are atheistic and agnostic.since, we have been around for so long. We had learnt to let it go.Nowadays, even we have started to become rigid, dogmatic and overtly sensitive. Maybe it's because of fear, which sometimes is justifiable.

[Restingvoice]

People are more worried about offense on Christianity and Islam because they know it's still widely worshipped today. People are not worried about Nordic and Greek Gods because for all they know, no one worship them anymore.

So it's more about social courtesy based on general knowledge.

As for lesser known religion, most people straight up still think that Wicca is the same as Satanism... or that Animism doesn't count as religion, because... I don't know... hundreds of years of colonialism and imperialism using religion as political tool probably, combined with certain bible directly said the other is the enemy... so it's up for grabs on who wins back then... I haven't read everything, but that seems the gist of the history of why some religion count and some don't, and how it differ in every country...

[Korath]

People are more worried about offense on Christianity and Islam because they know it's still widely worshipped today. People are not worried about Nordic and Greek Gods because for all they know, no one worship them anymore.

So it's more about social courtesy based on general knowledge.

As for lesser known religion, most people straight up still think that Wicca is the same as Satanism... or that Animism doesn't count as religion, because... I don't know... hundreds of years of colonialism and imperialism using religion as political tool probably, combined with certain bible directly said the other is the enemy... so it's up for grabs on who wins back then... I haven't read everything, but that seems the gist of the history of why some religion count and some don't, and how it differ in every country...

Yeah, I understand the reasons for the différences, but I find it kind of sad. Especially when it comes to Heathenry, which often venerate the Norse Gods and is in the midst of a culture war on itself.