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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Yeah. I certainly don't want to see Christianity mocked. But some satire and jokes are OK for me. I have faith (cool word here) in Russell, but I wouldn't be surprised if I read the first issue and hate it. A 21st America makeover for Jesus could either be brilliant or a pile of $#!+.

    I think I'll wait and decide for myself.
    Whats wrong with mocking Christianity? Not that I think this will mock it but so what? Christians mock other faiths all the time. Heck saying everyone else is going to Hell cause they don't think christ is their savior is the ultimate form of mocking.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Cause it's to easy and lazy, there is nothing provocative bold or daring about mocking Christianity, since it totally permissible and the norm.
    Mocking other religions however.....
    Equal opportunity / coexist bring back the SUPER BEST FRIENDS!


    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Swap out Jesus with Muhammad the Prophet, and this comic doesn't even get past the elevator pitch.
    Excactly mocking other active religions is completely frowned on, while mocking Christianly is completely safe, easy and acceptable and main stream. There is nothing daring, biting, or subversive about this.
    Last edited by Güicho; 01-12-2019 at 07:59 PM.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaliaJoy View Post
    ...it's hard for me to get past the ludicrous premise of God locking Jesus up for 2000 years because...He did exactly what He was sent to earth to do?
    Well, there's an historical precedent of sorts. When Christians wrote their sequel to the Old Testament of the Hebrews, and reinterpreted the original, they changed what the Messiah was "sent to earth to do." In Jewish theology (which the Christians started with and then changed), the Messiah was supposed to come, usher in the Kingdom of God on Earth, and that was it. None of this "getting sacrificed to save humanity from Original Sin with his blood," and certainly no "coming back to life on Earth briefly, then ascending to Heaven and coming back in 2000+ years after humanity had continued to suffer and die." The Coming of the Messiah was supposed to be a one-time deal.

    From a Jewish theological point of view, what the Christians made of the Old Testament, and their additions to it, is a direct insult to the Jewish religion the Old Testament was written for. A cultural misappropriation. And if Christianity weren't the majority religion in the Western world, there would be more discussion about that.

    Some scholars believe that this was the defining issue in the early years of the Christian church: they expected Jesus back pretty much any minute, and when, after a number of decades, he still hadn't returned, they had to develop new theological views and interpretations to cope with it. (Matthew 16:28 was understood one way early on, but is understood very differently today.)

    I am not saying who is right and who is wrong. I certainly mean no offense to anyone. I'm just saying that there are multiple perspectives. But if you think something that somebody is writing is an insult to your religion, you may want to - briefly - consider whether your religion is (or, at one time was) an insult to somebody else's.

    (Even specific religions change their views over time, although some of them don't like to admit it. Some of the things that a religion believes today - such as the Southern Baptist religious opinion of slavery, or the Roman Catholic Church's opinion on whether the Earth revolves around the Sun - would be considered a religious insult by the earlier versions of those same religions.)

    Be well, one and all.
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; 01-11-2019 at 09:28 PM.
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  4. #34
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Whats wrong with mocking Christianity? Not that I think this will mock it but so what? Christians mock other faiths all the time. Heck saying everyone else is going to Hell cause they don't think christ is their savior is the ultimate form of mocking.
    I think you're confusing what I'd pay to read with what I think should be published. There's certainly nothing wrong with mocking uptight attitudes. I think it would be unfair to represent those attitudes as being what Christianity truly is. And I know there have been so many examples of people claiming their "Christian" way is true despite major disagreements with Christ's actual message.

    I don't say they can't or shouldn't. I just don't have to like or buy it.

  5. #35
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    This among others gets a free pass but a book about a Muslim heroine or a chubby girl who talks to squirrels annoys folks.
    She's not chubby! Sure, her current design is thicker than it once was, but Squirrel Girl is pretty active and healthy, that ain't fat on her, it's muscle.



    I just hope this doesn't portray Christians as intolerant or belligerent or whatever. Some people I suspect think people of faith are all shouting "Turn or burn" or as ultra-conservative Trump supporters. Whatever your opinion on religion is, and however you may want to satire or lampoon it, do remember that the people who worship it are the same as anyone else.

  6. #36
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    A lot of good points made

    Again I'd stress it's the description in the solicit I'm not happy about, the book itself I won't judge until I see it

    And it's also the notion sometimes presented (not here by any poster I would stress) that someone can pass critique or satire something important to people without retort, as I feel is often expected

    In short I suppose I'm saying that whilst I'm ok with irreverent comments, it should be able to go in both directions

  7. #37
    All-New Member Mystrx's Avatar
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    I'd be surprised if it makes past 20 issues. Seems like a trash idea for a story to me.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    forgive them Lord for they know not what they do.
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  9. #39
    Incredible Member Swamp Thing 2099's Avatar
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    Reading this thread sure is...something.

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  10. #40
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    Between God is Disappointed in You and the more recent Flintstones/Booster Gold Special (one of the last times Booster was written mostly in-character inside a DC comic ), this pitch is perfectly in line with Russell's personal philosophy, down to the Holy Father seeing his Divine Son's first trip to Earth as a failure. For those who missed the Special, these are the main plot points of the issue:

    - an alien race invades Earth in Booster's XXV century;
    - Booster goes back to the Flintstones' time and accidentally kills a planet-hopping Messiah who looks like he's a member of the race of the invading aliens during a crach landing;
    - Booster finds a way to fix his timesphere;
    - Booster saves the alien Messiah via time-travel shenanigans and drags him to the XXV century;
    - the Alien Messiah chastises the members of his own race for being the same violent @$$holes they were before he started spreading his message, with the difference that they now kill in the name of the guy who tried to teach them about peaceful coexistence and respect for every living creature;
    - moral of the story: changing the nature of a whole species is hard and can't be done in a few years, despite one's best intentions.

    Russell's work has never featured religious people being bashed because they are religious. The bashing is always reserved for those doing things that are the opposite of what is written in the Holy Book they claim to follow. Faith did not ruin humans, it's humans who ruined faith.

    And for those who are lamenting the fact that this is the lowest form of provocative writing since it's about Christianity rather than any other faith (meaning: Islam), I can only reply that in my opinion this is an eminently sensible course of action for any artist since it's the Woody Allen's M.O.: you do art about what you know.

  11. #41
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    Russell's work has never featured religious people being bashed because they are religious. The bashing is always reserved for those doing things that are the opposite of what is written in the Holy Book they claim to follow. Faith did not ruin humans, it's humans who ruined faith.
    Yeah, but often it feels like all the focus is on "hose doing things that are the opposite of what is written in the Holy Book they claim to follow" and no sign ever that there are religious people who actually follow the whole turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor stuff. It'd be nice if this is one of the few examples where being religious doesn't mean being a jerk.

    That said I'm not sure what to think of a premise that views Jesus on the cross not as a sacrifice for our sins but as a failure and God wanted Him to go around kicking bad guy butt like Superman. Next thing you know the Buddha will come back to learn from Batman.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Jesus!

    I hope its not a prequel to Jesus vs Superman.

    How many times can Superman die? Poor guy. He dies all the time!


    On a serious note i don't think its appropriate to use Jesus Christ to do your thing. I fall in the camp who does not consider this mythology. Plus, Superman is not some messianic figure. Oh man, those weird Christ poses! I am not remotely interested in such stuff even if it has (some) potential to be real good.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-12-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  13. #43
    small press afficionado matt levin's Avatar
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    what a lot of stuff to think about!
    "Well, it's white Jesus, not real Jesus, so do what you want." Here's an interesting point, right here, which no one's seemed to touch on yet. Well noted, Sixspeed Samurai! Yep; if it's 'white Jesus' why, how can it offend people...unless, of course, 'black Jesus' offends sensibilities.
    And Capt. Cleghorn--"I think I'll wait and decide for myself." Excellent attitude for us all, I'd say.
    I myself am interested in at least the first issue probably the second; but while I very much liked the Pink Panther story, I didn't care for either the Flintstones or [Russell's other 'updated' characters' story--what the heck WAS that...sigh..]
    My own personal view, certainly right now in These Days, is that U.S. American Christianity has made such a public mockery of itself that this story will be next to nothing by comparison, though sure to outrage those I hold most responsible for the denigration of that religion's tenets. And that Muhammad himself would return to express outraged disgust at how [many] adherents to his thinking have perverted that, as well. And Moses...I kinda doubt ol' Mose would be pleased at all with Israel's current politics and policies regarding Palestinians. And my thanks to all so far, for managing this thread with so little rancor!
    For us all, then, let us follow the good Captain's advice: to think and wait and decide for oneself.
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  14. #44
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, but often it feels like all the focus is on "hose doing things that are the opposite of what is written in the Holy Book they claim to follow" and no sign ever that there are religious people who actually follow the whole turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor stuff. It'd be nice if this is one of the few examples where being religious doesn't mean being a jerk.
    Yeah, about that I wouldn't worry that much, since Russell has shown time and time again that he's specialized in giving depth even to the characters who look like caricatures at first sight. The answer the priest of the Church of Gerald (G-d for short), who had been mostly acting like the stereotypical hypocrite man of the cloth throughout the series, gives to Pebbles in the last issue of the Flintstones series when he's asked how he knows that G-d has a plan for us is probably the best exemplification of Russell's approach to faith and religiousness in general.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    LOL, this won't end well. Eventually, there will be a storyline or character that pisses people off.

    In all seriousness, I never use religious figures in my humble little works (be they Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Christian, exact) as I feel to do so is both intellectually lazy and inherently disrespectful to the group or groups involved. Heck, use a stand-in character if you must to make your point but not the actual religious figure. Show some self-control.
    Last edited by Celgress; 01-12-2019 at 12:12 PM.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

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