The Flash #66 Discussion/Spoilers

[Rakzo]

We're finally revisiting a plot-point that was teased a while ago. The return of James Jesse, the classic Trickster, was one of the best moments from The Flash last year and I'm happy to say that as a follow-up this doesn't disappoint.

The premise is just like one Geoff Johns' classic flashbacks featuring the Rogues. This time we learn about the past of the original Trickster and I must say that I was initially fearing that Williamson was telling a completely different version of what Johns originally teased around the end of his first Flash run, particularly the phrase where he described James: "Why does he have to hurt other people? Why can't he just make them laugh? Because he was born rotten. He doesn't trick his mother. He will never help anyone but himself" and yes Williamson is doing different things but at the same time, there's similar basis here.

James' past is pretty much a reverse Dick Grayson origin where his parents were con people who abused him to work as a performer while they robbed the audience. This differs from what Johns initially planned but is clear that Williamson is taking huge inspiration from it once that James' mother tells him "You were born rotten" which once again proves how much Williamson does his homework. Even the things that are changed are for the better I believe since it presents Trickster as a more sympathetic figure who only wants to impress people as a way to impress his parents. The way how the issue progresses is an intense mirror to his suffering and struggles and serves as a way for his return.

Williamson even goes a little meta concerning the disappearance of James in this continuity. He never died in this timeline but he was imprisoned in Iron Heights for a long time and everyone around him forgot about his existence which is a reference to how modern comic fans don't even know about him.

Scott Kolins handles the art and he's perfect here not only considering his history with the series but also because he used to do the classic Rogues origins as well. Pretty detailed work overall.

Great stuff, one of my favorite reads this week.

[married guy]

See, I really enjoyed the Trickster after Underworld Unleashed. (He was also great in that mini series if you haven't read it!)
He wasn't a good guy, but he certainly wasn't an evil sonuvabitch either.
He knew what was waiting for him if he didn't change his ways - but he was still a sneaky manipulative bastard.

[Rakzo]

Underworld Unleashed did decently for Trickter... but terribly for all the other Rogues who were killed and went like total wimps.

Still, this is by far the best portrayal that James Jesse has ever gotten.

[K. Jones]

Oh man, at what point do we start discussing this Flash run as being an all time great? We're 66 issues in now ... sixty-six freaking issues. And while there's good issues, slightly dull issues, then absolutely great issues, as a whole the entire run has a consistent level of quality, care, and keeping it interesting, that has persisted. I was getting a little bored of the Gemini plot but then bam! right back in the thick of it with the Batman crossover and this Trickster revival.

So good man.

[Dred]

It's maybe the sixth or eighth best flash run so far (depending on how you feel about BA/SA era stories) so all time great is a bit strong. Williamson has struggled through lots of arcs.

I think it says a lot that a decent Johns impersonation is one of his best issues ever. That said, it was about on par with those old Johns Rogues one shots.

[Rakzo]

It's maybe the sixth or eighth best flash run so far (depending on how you feel about BA/SA era stories) so all time great is a bit strong. Williamson has struggled through lots of arcs.

I think it says a lot that a decent Johns impersonation is one of his best issues ever. That said, it was about on par with those old Johns Rogues one shots.

He had waaaaay more hits than misses to be honest.

And at this point I would say that is better than Waid's run in terms of pure consistency.

[Slim Shady]

Looking forward to this arc, I’m a big James Jesse fan. Trickster followed by Year One, both have potential to be really good back to back stories.

I think when it’s all said and done I’ll call it one of the top Flash runs. Overall it’s been really solid the whole time. It’s had some flaws but most long runs do. I’d like to see him go all the way to 100.

[Dred]

He had waaaaay more hits than misses to be honest.

And at this point I would say that is better than Waid's run in terms of pure consistency.

Buddy, this is a hot as hell take. You are entitled to your opinion but it is by no means the case. Consistency has almost certainly been Williamson's biggest weakness besides horribly overwrought dialogue.

It's not better than the far away away best Flash run ever. It's not even as consistently well written as William Messner-Loebs, much less Waid. Didn't even have an above average arc until Running Scared. That's a long ways to go with his biggest contribution being a terribly conceived and handled villain in Godspeed. Heck, his two best arcs -- Flash War and Running Scared -- are straight up Waid derivative. And even Flash War had some struggling character writing (Hello Zolomon).

[Frontier]

It's hard for me to rank Williamson because of how much he takes inspiration from and utilizes concepts and themes from all the other major Flash runs. Maybe not to the extent of a "love letter" to them, but in that vein.

[Rakzo]

Buddy, this is a hot as hell take. You are entitled to your opinion but it is by no means the case. Consistency has almost certainly been Williamson's biggest weakness besides horribly overwrought dialogue.

It's not better than the far away away best Flash run ever. It's not even as consistently well written as William Messner-Loebs, much less Waid. Didn't even have an above average arc until Running Scared. That's a long ways to go with his biggest contribution being a terribly conceived and handled villain in Godspeed. Heck, his two best arcs -- Flash War and Running Scared -- are straight up Waid derivative. And even Flash War had some struggling character writing (Hello Zolomon).

HA!

First of all, Waid WISHES he would have been as consistent as Messner-Loebs. Messner-Loebs' little arcs and one-and-done stories always had the purpose of developing Wally's character or the rest of the multidimensional cast that run had. There's a reason why people always mention Waid's first few storyarcs as the highlight of his run, because his little arcs and one-and-done stories were incredibly forgettable for the most part and thus made his run wildly inconsistent as a whole all of this culminating in the infamous Chain Lightning storyline where most people agree that it was time for Waid to go. You just need to compare how both runs ended, Messner-Loebs' final issue was a wonderfully personal story where all the characters had a satisfying resolution, Waid's final issue was just a mediocre team-up with Captain Marvel.

Second, Williamson's run is mostly heavily inspired by Johns' work, not Waid's. This is easy to tell because every chapter of his work serves to the overarching plot much like in Johns' work while Waid was simply making things up as he went. Sure, Williamson takes bits of pretty much every part of Flash's history but his style is heavily reminiscent of a single source.

Finally, PLEASE don't bring villains into this. Godspeed might not be the best villain/character but still he's faaaaar better than any of the lame excuses of antagonists Waid created during his run whose only purpose was to show how great Wally was. Again, this is pretty obvious by how pathetic the Rogues were under Waid's pen (and Messner-Loebs actually did them more justice now that I remember since he was one of the first who treat them as people instead of pure jokes) while thanks to Williamson, they have returned to their most important status they got from Johns.

And Hunter simply got the next logical development after the basis that Johns established.

[married guy]

HA!

First of all, Waid WISHES he would have been as consistent as Messner-Loebs. Messner-Loebs' little arcs and one-and-done stories always had the purpose of developing Wally's character or the rest of the multidimensional cast that run had. There's a reason why people always mention Waid's first few storyarcs as the highlight of his run, because his little arcs and one-and-done stories were incredibly forgettable for the most part and thus made his run wildly inconsistent as a whole all of this culminating in the infamous Chain Lightning storyline where most people agree that it was time for Waid to go. You just need to compare how both runs ended, Messner-Loebs' final issue was a wonderfully personal story where all the characters had a satisfying resolution, Waid's final issue was just a mediocre team-up with Captain Marvel.

Second, Williamson's run is mostly heavily inspired by Johns' work, not Waid's. This is easy to tell because every chapter of his work serves to the overarching plot much like in Johns' work while Waid was simply making things up as he went. Sure, Williamson takes bits of pretty much every part of Flash's history but his style is heavily reminiscent of a single source.

Finally, PLEASE don't bring villains into this. Godspeed might not be the best villain/character but still he's faaaaar better than any of the lame excuses of antagonists Waid created during his run whose only purpose was to show how great Wally was. Again, this is pretty obvious by how pathetic the Rogues were under Waid's pen (and Messner-Loebs actually did them more justice now that I remember since he was one of the first who treat them as people instead of pure jokes) while thanks to Williamson, they have returned to their most important status they got from Johns.

And Hunter simply got the next logical development after the basis that Johns established.

Usually Rakzo, I am in agreement with you. But in this case you're on your own.
Yes, Messner-Loebs did have a GREAT run with Wally and he established a lot of what came after when Waid took the reins.
Yes, Waid is TERRIBLE at coming up with new villians. (Razor and Cobalt Blue I'm looking at you!) By his admission that's the case.
But he gets a lot of leeway as he also gave us who I consider the best and most under used villain in the last 30 years - SAVITAR!

In regards to Williamson's run? It's been serviceable, but for me, there hasn't been a single story arc that had me screaming for the next issue.
Think Return of Barry Allen, Dead Heat, Terminal Velocity, Zoom, Blood will Run etc.
And I think the reason for that is the portrayal of Barry. There's been that lack of joy in the book. It's been very dark & heavy from the get-go, which is fine, but I need a break from that every once in a while. Just a couple of panels showing Barry doing something fun with his speed - to show that having powers isn't just a terrible burden. Think about how Wally would zip off across the country to grab his favourite pizza? Or would run off with Linda to Paris etc.

[Rakzo]

Usually Rakzo, I am in agreement with you. But in this case you're on your own.
Yes, Messner-Loebs did have a GREAT run with Wally and he established a lot of what came after when Waid took the reins.
Yes, Waid is TERRIBLE at coming up with new villians. (Razor and Cobalt Blue I'm looking at you!) By his admission that's the case.
But he gets a lot of leeway as he also gave us who I consider the best and most under used villain in the last 30 years - SAVITAR!

In regards to Williamson's run? It's been serviceable, but for me, there hasn't been a single story arc that had me screaming for the next issue.
Think Return of Barry Allen, Dead Heat, Terminal Velocity, Zoom, Blood will Run etc.
And I think the reason for that is the portrayal of Barry. There's been that lack of joy in the book. It's been very dark & heavy from the get-go, which is fine, but I need a break from that every once in a while. Just a couple of panels showing Barry doing something fun with his speed - to show that having powers isn't just a terrible burden. Think about how Wally would zip off across the country to grab his favourite pizza? Or would run off with Linda to Paris etc.

Really, the only storylines that I truly consider great from Waid's run are The Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity. Everything else ranks from "okay" (Dead Heat, Dark Flash) to "awfully terrible and should have never existed" (Chain Lightning) while all in between gets an "underwhelming at best". And Savitar is pretty much what I was referring as "lame excuses for antagonists" since he barely had any personality aside from "I WANT POWER!".

In that sense, I consider Williamson's run more consistent because at the very least his little arcs and stand-alone stories work better for the story as a whole (and he hasn't gotten his Chain Lightning so far which is always a huge plus).

[Dred]

HA!

First of all, Waid WISHES he would have been as consistent as Messner-Loebs. Messner-Loebs' little arcs and one-and-done stories always had the purpose of developing Wally's character or the rest of the multidimensional cast that run had. There's a reason why people always mention Waid's first few storyarcs as the highlight of his run, because his little arcs and one-and-done stories were incredibly forgettable for the most part and thus made his run wildly inconsistent as a whole all of this culminating in the infamous Chain Lightning storyline where most people agree that it was time for Waid to go. You just need to compare how both runs ended, Messner-Loebs' final issue was a wonderfully personal story where all the characters had a satisfying resolution, Waid's final issue was just a mediocre team-up with Captain Marvel.

Second, Williamson's run is mostly heavily inspired by Johns' work, not Waid's. This is easy to tell because every chapter of his work serves to the overarching plot much like in Johns' work while Waid was simply making things up as he went. Sure, Williamson takes bits of pretty much every part of Flash's history but his style is heavily reminiscent of a single source.

Finally, PLEASE don't bring villains into this. Godspeed might not be the best villain/character but still he's faaaaar better than any of the lame excuses of antagonists Waid created during his run whose only purpose was to show how great Wally was. Again, this is pretty obvious by how pathetic the Rogues were under Waid's pen (and Messner-Loebs actually did them more justice now that I remember since he was one of the first who treat them as people instead of pure jokes) while thanks to Williamson, they have returned to their most important status they got from Johns.

And Hunter simply got the next logical development after the basis that Johns established.

Waid never used The Rogues. He didn't like them so he deigned not using them instead of doing a poor impression of them. The only time he DID use them was Hell to Pay where they were just unkillable, demon powered baddies more than characters since Neron was the main villain there. Saying The Rogues were "pathetic" under Waid's pen is ridiculous because they were never under Waid's pen.

Secondly, Johns more than Waid? This from the guy who opened up his first like 20 issues based entirely around the SPEED FORCE STORM (though I'll admit Godspeed is a plain Zolomon ripoff), which then bridged itself into the Wally West centric Perfect Storm/Flash War stuff which was all about Flash family drama?

I'll give you the Force Quest stuff has got a distinct flavor of the lantern corps, but at the end of the day it's all riding on the coattails of the Speed Force. Something very, very important about Johns' run was how he let the Speed Force take a backseat as a central narrative device and inserted Central City PD and villains in that page space. This is not something Williamson's does with regularity, at least not more than SPEED FORCE villains.

Here's the difference between Godspeed and Cobalt Blue or the like: Cobalt Blue showed up literally once and never again. He was around for about five issues. Godspeed has shown up over twenty times.

The best written Flash stories list is littered with Waid and Johns stories, in whichever order you want to put them. You could probably squeeze in iconic ones like FOTW, too, even if it wasn't a storytelling hallmark, just for its importance. I can't even come close to any of that with Williamson. Like I said, he's got two above average arcs and the rest is forgettable at best or bad at worst. And even his two good arcs have some headscratching character writing.

Of course, you think Chain Lightning is bad because Cobalt Blue was stupid, whereas everyone else loves it because it was a swan song love letter to all the potential of the Flash family. Cobalt Blue was an, admittedly poor, tool to tell a story about the good guys. That's kind of Waid's MO and it was stellar all the way through. And hell, Cobalt Blue wouldn't have even been a bad villain if you remove the, "Barry's secret evil twin" thing. If he was just some Flash hating magic blue flame then it'd be about as generic as any other one off villain.

also I'm with married guy on Savitar. Savitar is a cool bad guy for all the reasons Max is a cool good guy. It's all wrapped up in Speed Force stuff which I wouldn't blame anyone for being tired of or unenamored with, but at the time the Speed Force was a fresh, interesting concept and Savitar wielded it antagonistically. He took Max's view of the Speed Force as a place of knowledge and freedom as a beacon of power and control. I like conflicting ideologies from the same source, though, so mileage may vary on that.

[Rakzo]

Waid never used The Rogues. He didn't like them so he deigned not using them instead of doing a poor impression of them. The only time he DID use them was UU where they were just unkillable, demon powered baddies more than characters since Neron was the main villain there. Saying The Rogues were "pathetic" under Waid's pen is ridiculous because they were never under Waid's pen.

Yes, he did. He portrayed them as pathetic pricks just before killing them so he used them.

Secondly, Johns more than Waid? This from the guy who opened up his first like 20 issues based entirely around the SPEED FORCE STORM (though I'll admit Godspeed is a plain Zolomon ripoff), which then bridged itself into the Wally West centric Perfect Storm/Flash War stuff which was all about Flash family drama?

This is more similar to Zoom's initial storyarc indeed.

I'll give you the Force Quest stuff is got a distinct flavor of the lantern corps, but at the end of the day it's all riding on the coattails of the Speed Force. Something very, very important about Johns' run was how he let the Speed Force take a backseat as a central narrative device and inserted Central City PD and villains in that page space. This is not something Williamson's did with any large regularity, at least not more than SPEED FORCE villains.

But again, there's a huge emphasis for long-term planning that lacking in Waid's run and was heavily present in Johns'. Not to mention the emphasis on the Rogues.

Here's the difference between Godspeed and Cobalt Blue: Cobalt Blue showed up literally once and never again. He was around for about five issues. Godspeed has shown up over twenty times.

Because Godspeed is not a literal insult to Barry Allen.

The best written Flash stories list is littered with Waid and Johns stories, in whichever order you want to put them. You could probably squeeze in iconic ones like FOTW, too, even if it wasn't a storytelling hallmark, just for its importance. I can't even come close to any of that with Williamson. Like I said, he's got two above average arcs and the rest is forgettable at best or bad at worst. And even his two good arcs have some headscratching character writing.

Nothing that Williamson has done is really bad.

Not to the level of Chain Lighting at least.

[TheCape]

Sue me, i still like Chain Of Lightning, even with how lame Cobalt Blue was.

As for Williamson, he is fine, mostly, i haven't anything that i particularity dislike, but i also don't find a lot to like either, is really middle of the road.