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  1. #1
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    Default Does Today's Marvel Youthful heroes really need tragedy to make them good ?

    In my recent Marvel thread: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...t-actions-quot, some of you have complained that the current Marvel youthful heroes of today aren't to your liking because they don't carry a "tragic backstory" like the Marvel heroes of old and their predecessors.


    Let me ask you this question: Do you NOT Want to see today's Marvel Youthful heroes having some sense of happiness in their lives ?

    I mean compare them to the DC Youth of old and tell me which was better to read. It depends on your own opinion.


    Also given the MESS that DC place their youthful heroes thanks to the events of Rebirth and now Their "Wonder" comics line depending on how long that last... I rather have a breath of fresh air with Marvel youthful heroes than to constantly see complexity that is the Youthful heroes of DC.

    Plus don't get me started with the X-men and how they treat their younger members. Also how Marvel see their Young X-men.

    So I bring my original question back to you all: Do you truly want to see someone like Ms. Marvel get tragedy in their lives to make them more like other heroes or do you at the very least want a fresh take on the average Marvel and be glad that they are not like their adult counterparts and have a family that cares for them ?

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    No tragic backstories? What about Ironheart? Father, stepfather and best friend all dead. And Sam Alexander, the former Nova whose father went to space and never came back. Amadeus Cho is an orphan. Nadia came to America only to find her father, who doesn't know she exists, had died - and her real mother has been dead since she was a baby. She's lucky that Hank Pym had remarried - she was adopted by Janet. But she's in for another gut-punch when she finds out that Hank actually fused with Ultron, and thus isn't dead after all, but is a villain.

  3. #3
    Spectacular Member VGCinema's Avatar
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    I want to say that tragedy shouldn't matter, but then I keep thinking about Miles Morales, and how much more depth his character had after his mother died in the Ultimate universe. I don't think he's been anywhere near as interesting ever since he entered the ol' 616, so it's kinda hard to say for me personally. I think if there is any tragedy to ever be brought to these character it has to come naturally and not because a bunch of people feel like it needs to happen for them to be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    No tragic backstories? What about Ironheart? Father, stepfather and best friend all dead. And Sam Alexander, the former Nova whose father went to space and never came back. Amadeus Cho is an orphan. Nadia came to America only to find her father, who doesn't know she exists, had died - and her real mother has been dead since she was a baby. She's lucky that Hank Pym had remarried - she was adopted by Janet. But she's in for another gut-punch when she finds out that Hank actually fused with Ultron, and thus isn't dead after all, but is a villain.
    EDIT: Yeah, those are all good points tbh

  4. #4
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Personally I don't think they need it, I think it's just what many people expect.

    A lot of people tend to see happiness as boring, which makes the character perfect.

  5. #5
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    I like that the younger characters don't seem as depressing right off the bat. It makes what horrible things that will happen to them eventually all the sweeter.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by VGCinema View Post
    I want to say that tragedy shouldn't matter, but then I keep thinking about Miles Morales, and how much more depth his character had after his mother died in the Ultimate universe. I don't think he's been anywhere near as interesting ever since he entered the ol' 616, so it's kinda hard to say for me personally. I think if there is any tragedy to ever be brought to these character it has to come naturally and not because a bunch of people feel like it needs to happen for them to be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    No tragic backstories? What about Ironheart? Father, stepfather and best friend all dead. And Sam Alexander, the former Nova whose father went to space and never came back. Amadeus Cho is an orphan. Nadia came to America only to find her father, who doesn't know she exists, had died - and her real mother has been dead since she was a baby. She's lucky that Hank Pym had remarried - she was adopted by Janet. But she's in for another gut-punch when she finds out that Hank actually fused with Ultron, and thus isn't dead after all, but is a villain.

    EDIT: Yeah, those are all good points tbh
    Oh yeah...I kind of forgot Miles is a mess and Nadia has her own tragedy, but at least with her she is trying to make the best of her new life, right ?

    Amadeus has parental issues and Sam Alexander has daddy issues and had to be the man of the house with his mom and sister. Still with Amadeus it was not until meeting the Hulk and Hercules that he strived to be a better hero and with Sam...Well I don't know what to say as I'm not a big fan of Sam Alexander's Nova.

    As for Miles...that is a question mark to itself given his history up to now.

    Still Those heroes tried to make the best of what they got once they understood their powers.

    Also don't forget the mess that was the Franklin Richards and his sister...at least they're aged up now.

    Plus the Runaways and their messed up lives.

    I also forgot the Power Pack, but then again they were Marvel's first actual YOUTHFUL team of heroes and look how they turned out...

    So Marvel heroes has their share of tragedy like other teen heroes, but to me I feel that the likes of Ms. Marvel and others can balance that, right ?

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Characters do no need a tragic background to be good or successful characters. Wally West as the Flash ran 25 years and was loved before DC screwed him.

    The problem with most of the youthful heroes is one, or a combination, or all of these things:

    1. They come off as Mary Sue's

    2. They are often unoriginal or watered down version of other characters. (This is not always a bad thing if handle correctly but when you do it and you tell your fans that the original characters are weaker or worse versions of the new characters, there is an issue. Better to have original characters and role models)

    3. Marvel writers use them as their personal mouth pieces instead of telling good stories.

    4. Marvel writers use them to tell stories that have nothing to do with being a superhero (There is an entire issue of Ms. Marvel about her imagining what something would be like)

    5. The editors and the writers both seem more inclined to throwout established cannon in the younger books more so then any of the others. But not only that they do it without properly laying out new cannon fans/new writers/new editors can pickup on or fully understand leaving the impression that nothing matters in the fans eyes and forcing new writers/ new editors to continue to make the mess left behind even messier.


    And that is just the tip.

    Edit: For those who know nothing about the Original Wally West ...he was a happy go lucky kid with both parents and was gifted the super powers of his favorite hero. He then would take up that heroes mantel for 25 years in the real world.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 01-12-2019 at 03:35 AM.

  8. #8
    Dime-Store Spongebob Personamanx's Avatar
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    Tragedy is relative. In a superhero book that can be anything from the end of the world to missing out on a date. You obviously can't have everything go too well for any character, there's not a lot of story in that but not every character needs a dead uncle or to lose an arm to be interesting. Tragedy can literally be spilling a glass of milk if we're made to care about it.
    Last edited by Personamanx; 01-11-2019 at 08:03 PM.
    Die - Paper Girls - Umbrella Academy: Hotel Oblivion - Runaways - Young Justice

  9. #9
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    A personal tragedy can be the fires that fuel a good story, but it's not necessary to create a good hero. Tragedy for the sake of tragedy is just as bad. Look at how DC screwed over Tim Drake, Wally West, and Roy Harper on their angst binge.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    ]4. Marvel writers use them to tell stories that have nothing to do with being a superhero (There is an entire issue of Ms. Marvel about her imagining what something would be like)
    Superheroes aren't a genre, there can be different kinds of stories within cape comics. Romance&Relationships, Soaps, Horror, Fantasy, etc etc can all exist in a superhero's comic.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ţh€ €жţяą-๏яďɨɲąя Tycon View Post
    Superheroes aren't a genre, there can be different kinds of stories within cape comics. Romance&Relationships, Soaps, Horror, Fantasy, etc etc can all exist in a superhero's comic.
    They exist but they don't super-cede what the genre is. Marvel is a company that makes and tells stories about SUPERHEROES. By a large margin People who go to MARVEL to buy a comic because they are looking for SUPERHERO stories. When they purchase a few books and find that the stories aren't about what the company ADVERTISE they naturally leave and/or do not SUPPORT those books.

    It's not rocket science. If Marvel wants to rebrand and say they are not a Superhero company and instead Romance Comedy or whatever else company so be it but don't expect those who have been buying books for SUPERHEROES to buy or support that. Since they are targeting another market.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 01-12-2019 at 06:12 AM.

  12. #12
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    4. Marvel writers use them to tell stories that have nothing to do with being a superhero (There is an entire issue of Ms. Marvel about her imagining what something would be like)
    Last time I checked EVERY COMPANY DID THAT. Because it helps develop a character.

    Static in his original run did not fight villains in every issue. He had one issue going to the movies, another a sex talk with his Dad before going to have sex with his girlfriend (never happened), dealt with Richie being gay more than fight a villain and one where he met an older hero (drawn by Gil Kane) not to mention the Lost Boys in another issue.

    Wonder Woman has had plenty of issues where she did not fight. One where it was nothing but her talking to a host before issue 50 (Perez run) another where she met Trevor Barnes's nephew and hung out.

    We Are Robin had an entire issue of one member hanging out with Batgirl.

    Superman got his white privilege check in his own book. When Keith Roberts was around we saw parts of Superman book deal with him more than Superman fighting evil.

    Aquaman had an entire issue of him hanging out with a black kid who had cancer.

    Batman had an issue that had him CRYING over orphan kids. It also features one of the EARLY Todd Macfarlane Batman covers.

    Steel & Supergirl argued an entire issue over the right of a white supremacist speaking at a college. Peter David run.

    John's JSA had an issue where Jakeem Thunder & Hourman spent time with their fathers.

    Luke Cage's final issue was him telling Danielle a story.

    I can give you TONS of examples of books where no one fight evil and nobody got upset about it. It happens.




    3. Marvel writers use them as their personal mouth pieces instead of telling good stories.
    Please name the book and issue numbers that this happens.

  13. #13
    Spectacular Member VGCinema's Avatar
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    Heroes fighting villains alone isn't enough. I wouldn't read superhero comics if that is all it was every single issue. But I love them because of the people that they are or who they want to be and how the characters react to each other within the same world. Crime fighting is the dessert, but everything else is the meal if that makes sense.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Dragonick's Avatar
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    Tragic backstories are so commonplace in fiction these days they've become boring. I find it much more interesting and refreshing that many of Marvel's young heroes are motivated by the urge to do good, help others, and make the world a better place. The majority of firemen didn't choose their job because when they were kids their house burned down, they do it because they want to help others. The fact that they're heroes not because the world wronged them, but because they want to right the world's wrongs is what makes them heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    No tragic backstories? What about Ironheart? Father, stepfather and best friend all dead. And Sam Alexander, the former Nova whose father went to space and never came back. Amadeus Cho is an orphan. Nadia came to America only to find her father, who doesn't know she exists, had died - and her real mother has been dead since she was a baby. She's lucky that Hank Pym had remarried - she was adopted by Janet. But she's in for another gut-punch when she finds out that Hank actually fused with Ultron, and thus isn't dead after all, but is a villain.
    Also this, does it not count unless they all have tragic backstories or did some people just not know some of these backstories?

  15. #15
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    Needing a tragic backstory to be interesting is a crutch.

    You can still have a lot of interpersonal and internal conflict with certain defining moments or from your background or from your powers.

    Many younger heroes do have a personal tragedy, but many would agree that the most successful of these is Kamala khan who has no tragedy.

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