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  1. #16
    Niffleheim
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    .

    Please name the book and issue numbers that this happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post


    Titania and Crusher's encounter with Thor. Enjoy.
    The list of writers is never-ending. Aaron's whole Thor run is a hating crusade about faith and gods

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VGCinema View Post
    Heroes fighting villains alone isn't enough. I wouldn't read superhero comics if that is all it was every single issue. But I love them because of the people that they are or who they want to be and how the characters react to each other within the same world. Crime fighting is the dessert, but everything else is the meal if that makes sense.
    The core of SUPERHERO COMICS is seeing Heroes overcome adversity with Superpowers thrown in. The continual entertainment around the genre is that the Hero defeats a villain with said powers or incredible ability. Keeping in mind that Villains can take many forms, they do not always have to be one person vs. another. And Doing so in an ENTERTAINING fashion.(That part is critical)

    If someone is not interested in that they are probably in the wrong medium and no-offense are more then likely part of the problem. People can go on and on that everything is fine but the number of comic shops are decreasing year after year while Marvel sales are getting lower.


    EDIT: To add before some idiot comes in here ranting about SJW or ComicsGate....I personally do not give a rats A$& about what side you're on, your political stance, or how you feel people should live their lives.

    All I care about is that a medium I use to very much enjoy is on a perpetual swirl down the drain and the ENTERTAINMENT I use to get from books I use to love is decreasing. I do not care how Marvel fixes it as long as it get's fixed. Because I would rather not see the medium go away or get morphed into some MilqueToast version of itself.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 01-12-2019 at 03:28 AM.

  3. #18
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    The fact that Ms. Marvel isn't driven by tragedy is actually one of the things that initially drew me to the comics, and which I found so refreshing. She's not a good person because her parents got stabbed to death with a rusty spork and her dog got blown up by a rocket launcher. She's a good person because she makes the choice to be a good person, and do good things. Superhero stories can serve a lot of functions, and one of them is definitely to be inspirational and aspirational. In that respect, I think Ms. Marvel excels. You don't need some great impetus to thrust you into heroism; anyone, at any time, can make that choice, and choose to fight injustice, bigotry, and so forth. In a way, tragedy would almost cheapen it ("you only do this as revenge because your dog exploded" etc).

    Now, sure, you can throw in tragedy down the line, but... I don't think it's strictly necessary. Watching Kamala and her friends and family deal with their personal, regular-life issues is just as compelling (maybe moreso) than a lot of grimdark "all is suffering" brooding that other stories do.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Superhero isn't a genre, you can expect a lot of action stuff but it doesn't have to be there. Many acclaimed and popular runs this century are just comedies and dramas.
    NOW PLAYING: Camping outside a Gamestop to swoop in and ambush the first child with a copy of Devil May Cry V for me to steal.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Superhero comics is very much a genre.

    Genre:
    a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter.
    In fact it was/is somewhat a niche medium subjected to appealing to consumers looking for a specific form of entertainment. That being heroes using fancy powers and/or abilities to stop and/or overcome evil.

    Super:
    INFORMAL
    very good or pleasant; excellent.
    "Julie was a super girl"
    synonyms: excellent, superb, superlative, first-rate, first-class, superior, outstanding, remarkable, dazzling, marvelous, magnificent, wonderful, splendid, fine, exquisite, exceptional, glorious, sublime, peerless, perfect, of the first water; More

    2.
    (of a manufactured product) superfine.
    "a super quality binder"
    adverbINFORMAL
    adverb: super
    1.
    especially; particularly.
    "he's been super understanding"
    noun
    noun: super; plural noun: supers

    2.
    INFORMAL•ARCHAIC
    an extra, unwanted, or unimportant person; a supernumerary.
    THEATRICAL SLANG•DATED
    an extra.
    HERO:
    noun
    noun: hero; plural noun: heroes; noun: hero sandwich; plural noun: hero sandwiches
    1.
    a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.
    "a war hero"
    synonyms: brave man, champion, man of courage, great man, man of the hour, conquering hero, victor, winner, conqueror, lionheart, warrior, paladin, knight, white hat; More
    antonyms: coward, loser
    the chief person character in a book, play, or movie, who is typically identified with good qualities, and with whom the reader is expected to sympathize.
    synonyms: protagonist, principal character; More
    antonyms: villain
    (in mythology and folklore) a person of superhuman qualities and often semidivine origin, in particular one whose exploits were the subject of ancient Greek myths.
    SUPERHERO:
    noun
    noun: superhero; plural noun: superheroes; noun: super-hero; plural noun: super-heroes
    a benevolent fictional character with superhuman powers, such as Superman
    A particular noticeable feature of what is also causing harm to this particular medium is people want to wax poetic about what a SUPERHERO comic is to either seem more mature or cultured. However, in the process of doing so the medium is being degraded into unreadable dribble.

    Not trying to be crass or rude but the medium is what it is. By trying pretend it is so much more you get what you have with these "Younger" heroes that are not moving comics.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 01-12-2019 at 09:34 AM.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I donít know if itís just that young super heroes donít have a tragic back-story. I think itís that young super heroes arenít made to sink or swim. They get a cushy ride because the senior super heroes take the heavy load. Itís the difference between parents and children. Parents have no safety net and if they make a mistake they go bankrupt. Kids languish in the protection of their parents umbrella, so theyíve never had to fend for themselves in a parent situation. Thatís why young super heroes have no imperative. Send them out on their own and let them suffer. Thatís what makes a super hero.

    An example. All todayís super hero kids have parental figures they can hide under. But the Children of super heroes written by Bendis in Heroic Age Avengers #1-5, had no safety net, and had to battle Ultron alone and no parental guidance to protect them. They even executed Kang. Thatís the difference between todayís youthful super heroes and what they should be.
    Last edited by jackolover; 01-13-2019 at 07:02 AM.

  7. #22

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    Interesting people, in general, have experienced tragedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
    Because its fun, not as fun as the liberal meltdown but close
    11/10/2016

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    All today’s super hero kids have parental figures they can hide under.
    Amadeus Cho doesn't. His parents are dead. And for most of his time as the Totally Awesome Hulk, so was Bruce Banner.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    The list of writers is never-ending. Aaron's whole Thor run is a hating crusade about faith and gods
    That is why I asked.

    Because there has been way too much making stuff up to justify attacking creators, burning or stabbing books and all that other mess. Lead by those who don't read the books and HOPE no one calls them out on it. Because when calls for proof are stated-guess who does not want to talk.

    So going by your example

    Superboy 216 the first appearance of Tyrco-fits what you are saying.
    The creation of Malcolm Duncan for Teen Titans does as well.
    X-Men Red fits too. Gentle can not be hated by Wakandans for being part outsider when Queen Ramonda, Shuri & Storm as all outsiders.
    Superman (vol 2) 179 fits as well. Superman gets his white privilege checked.
    Batman The Hill does it to Batman.
    Batman Seduction of the Gun fits too.

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    The core of SUPERHERO COMICS is seeing Heroes overcome adversity with Superpowers thrown in. The continual entertainment around the genre is that the Hero defeats a villain with said powers or incredible ability. Keeping in mind that Villains can take many forms, they do not always have to be one person vs. another. And Doing so in an ENTERTAINING fashion.(That part is critical)

    If someone is not interested in that they are probably in the wrong medium and no-offense are more then likely part of the problem. People can go on and on that everything is fine but the number of comic shops are decreasing year after year while Marvel sales are getting lower.


    EDIT: To add before some idiot comes in here ranting about SJW or ComicsGate....I personally do not give a rats A$& about what side you're on, your political stance, or how you feel people should live their lives.

    All I care about is that a medium I use to very much enjoy is on a perpetual swirl down the drain and the ENTERTAINMENT I use to get from books I use to love is decreasing. I do not care how Marvel fixes it as long as it get's fixed. Because I would rather not see the medium go away or get morphed into some MilqueToast version of itself.
    You keep on mentioning Marvel lower sales, but I thought Prof. Warren already explain why that is...

    People really need to stop with the "but look at Marvel's sales!" cry to justify their own personal issues.

    Marvel is the #1 publisher in comics. Month in, month out. Year in, year out.

    With very rare exception, they consistently lead the industry. The months when they aren't #1 in both Diamond categories are few and far between.

    Do they sell as much in individual issues as they did in the '80s or '90s? No. But here's the thing - no one else does either. If DC or Image or any other publisher were selling at '90s numbers and Marvel was trailing far behind them, that'd be one thing. But that's not the case at all. Marvel's sales are in line with the overall trends for the industry and they ride those marketplace waves better than most.

    And before anyone says "But if they were putting out better books, sales wouldn't be down!", you have to realize that we're not in 1985 anymore. Just as in the '80s, comics sales were actually paltry compared to what they had been in the heyday of the '40s, comics have continued to be a niche hobby as more and more entertainment options have come into play. The marketplace pie is split in so many ways now. Comparing comics sales today to those of twenty or thirty years ago is like comparing network TV ratings now to what they used to be, before streaming services and DVR and so on. Network programming used to live and die by the overnight ratings. That's not the case anymore. Success is measured by different metrics. Decades ago, if a show got the overnight ratings that many hit shows do now, they'd be yanked off the air immediately. But we live in a different world now where people view programs through many different avenues.

    The same is true with comics. It's not just about the monthly floppies anymore. It's about digital and trades and so on.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    You keep on mentioning Marvel lower sales, but I thought Prof. Warren already explain why that is...
    Certain posters are misinformed and are blindly defending Marvel do to some misplaced sense of loyalty. When in truth they should be changing their buying habits and speaking out on what is going on in the comic book industry.

    This article below is from an actual person in the industry.

    The Problem: 90% of the books coming off the stands at the end of their shelf life have zero value as a back issue. After 3 months, many books become box-fillers and dead items that take up space. No one is looking for a 3-issue mini-series 6 months removed unless it features a new character and there’s a rumor circulating about his/her inclusion in a movie that was possibly green-lit. Between February and October we had, at cost, nearly $100,000 in books that were taken off the stands. 60% were instantly unsellable. 30% will languish if they’re still here in 3 months.
    The Problem: Reboots. No surprise but every jumping on point creates in its wake a jumping off point. There’s a greater concern though: continuity. No, not continuity of Spider-Man wearing a hat on page 3 when he had his head cut off on page 2, continuity of series collecting. This industry was built on reading and COLLECTING comics. When you reboot, what has gone before is no longer valid, which contributes to the 90% mentioned in Problem #1. With the prevalence of reboots, fan no longer feel invested as they know that nothing is any more permanent than the current creative team.
    I have 12 years of new comics sales data, but I look at last issue when ordering comics as there is no pattern to the freefall. If this doesn’t disturb you, it should. I am a single voice but I’m not alone in my concerns.
    https://icv2.com/articles/columns/vi...ing-has-change
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 01-13-2019 at 03:49 PM.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    They may be in the industry, but it reeks of entitlement and nostalgia. I don't think the argument holds water. At all. His argument is basically 'but comics aren't what they used to be' as if making them just like they were would magically boost the sales a ton, and that simply is not the case. If it was, DC would have gotten a much larger boost from Rebirth than they did, Starlin's retro Thanos books would have sold way better than the more modern takes coming out at the same time, etc. Comics changed in response to what current readers are looking for, and people just have to deal with that, because returning them to what they were in the 80s or whatever decade you are pining for is not a magic bullet fix, this has been demonstrated many times.

    Also. Resale value? really? he is going there? Do we really want to return to the days of comics speculation that merely created an illusion of success and popularity? At least right now the sales made are generally actually being read by the people buying the books, and are actually reflective of what people like to read, rather than a bunch of people buying 10 copies and bagging and boarding them, never to see the light of day again. Resale value may be good for comic shops, but when it comes to representing an actual fanbase, its all smoke and mirrors. The comic industry isn't just about how well comic shops are doing, it is about the publishers selling as many comics as they can. And selling one or two copies per person rather than a smaller number buying many copies because they mistakenly believe they are more valuable than they really are, is much more sustainable long term. The speculation bubble and artificial inflation in resale value of the 90s nearly tanked the industry when it burst, we dont need to return to that.

    And more importantly, The sales don't have to all be in floppies anymore, they can be in trades and digital as well. Which is where the resale value has gone to. That the floppies do not increase in value is not not some denouncement of the quality of the books, it is just a change in how they are consumed and sold. Why buy back issues when you can just buy a handy book of a whole arc? And more importantly, why on earth would the publishers want a return to backissue hunting, when with trade and digital sales, they get a cut of the profit rather than the comic shops taking the full amount of an increased cover price in the resale market? I repeat, the industry is more than just how well comic shops are doing. And just because people buying the issues now are not treating them as an investment is not a bad thing for the industry, better to have a sustainable market than a bubble ready to burst. The onus is on comic shops to adapt to this, rather than beg for a return to an unsustainable bubble for a temporary boost.

    And no, Superheroes are more an umbrella classification for characters that share some basic traits with which you can tell many types of stories. A super-genre, maybe, but I think of it as more of an umbrella thing. And while many stories follow a formula of a hero fighting a villain, you can also do fantasy, romance, sci-fi, horror, slice of life, mystery, war stories, and even westerns and still have it fall under the superhero umbrella, as long as the characters have a few vague traits. The stories have a lot of flexibility as a result, and it is one of the things I love about superhero comics. And it has been like this for decades, it is not a new phenomenon.

    And to the OP I do not think all characters need a tragic backstory, and don't think that some of the newer characters lacking tragedy (though, as has been pointed out, a lot of them do have tragic aspects to their backstories) is a problem. Some of my favorites are the least tragic, like Ms Marvel or Squirrel Girl (who is not technically new but she got a big boost with North's run)
    Last edited by Raye; 01-14-2019 at 01:35 AM.

  13. #28
    Fantastic Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    I hope I don't get death threats for saying this, but even though the fighting/action panels in Marvel comics can be really cool to look at, it's the plot/message of the comic that determines whether I will like it or not.

    But I am new to comics so maybe I am not in the majority of comic buyers.
    Baby Thanos

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbellysqueezer View Post
    I hope I don't get death threats for saying this, but even though the fighting/action panels in Marvel comics can be really cool to look at, it's the plot/message of the comic that determines whether I will like it or not.

    But I am new to comics so maybe I am not in the majority of comic buyers.
    I have been reading since the late 90s (tho my first was a Vertigo stuff, mainstream superheroes since the early 00s) and I feel the same way. I think the stories feel very hollow without something to get you emotionally invested in the characters lives, or invested on a more intellectual level with themes and messages, preferably both.

    And while emotional investment CAN come from tragedy, and is arguably the easiest way to achieve this, it doesn't HAVE to be, you can also just show their family and how they relate to their community like Ms Marvel does, or create a group of friends like in Squirrel Girl, or create a romantic will they won't they situation, a conflict of interest between thier superhero and personal lives is a staple, or or or.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-14-2019 at 02:07 AM.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    There is no better hero motivation than Tragedy. Any genre. It is rarity that hero is doing what they are doing because of just altruism. Those heroes are hard to write because people don't really connect with a person who doing something with no really stakes in it for them. If Billionaire gives his fortune away to help people most people can't understand, If a Billionaire gives his fortune away because mother had cancer he doesn't want to see people suffer we get it. Heroes don't need a tragedy but they do need a catalyst for their actions. The catalyst for Batman's actions is parents dying, Now try to picture Batman doing what he is doing without his parents dying.

    A characters like Ms Marvel or Superman are rare where there motivation to help others is based on them being genuinely good people. If you can keep writing them same internal motivation it is fine but when you have try to express why this person is a hero becomes a bit harder. Why are some young heroes doing what they are doing

    Sam Alexander to be hero that father wasn't or live up to hero his father was
    Riri Williams to make sure that nobody gets hurt like her stepfather and best friend

    You don't have to have a tragedy but if you are talking about core motivation. Why does Ms Marvel want to be a hero? To be like Captain Marvel? It is really interesting to have a character who wants to help because they simple just a good person but harder to explain why this person is putting their life on the line with no real motivation. I mean because it is a job and they are good at it the reason most people do it real life is reason enough but reading in a story isn't very interesting for a large amount of heroes. Tragedy is the simplest motivation to use, Responsibility(which ties well with tragedy) or Faith are much harder to use.

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