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  1. #241
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    I don't think we know for sure that Adam covered himself from head to toe to avoid being identified as a Black man, as opposed to avoiding being identified period. Other heroes also wore costumes that covered them from head to toe. Obviously, Grevioux did use total concealment and the big reveal as the central plot device, but I don't think that he ever established that Adam's costume choice was driven by a specific racial concern.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I don't think we know for sure that Adam covered himself from head to toe to avoid being identified as a Black man, as opposed to avoiding being identified period. Other heroes also wore costumes that covered them from head to toe. Obviously, Grevioux did use total concealment and the big reveal as the central plot device, but I don't think that he ever established that Adam's costume choice was driven by a specific racial concern.
    I do think it crossed his mind at least.

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I do think it crossed his mind at least.
    Maybe a passing thought?

    As an African American, Adam likely operated in many circles where he was the only Black man in the room. When you can't hide or "pass", you naturally gain tougher skin. Combine that with achievement and his exemplary attributes and you get the kind of pride that won't let you run from who you are. I can see Adam covered from head to toe to protect his identity, especially the well-being of his friends and family. But I don't believe for an instant that he would do so to hide his Blackness.

    Being covered from head to toe allowed the population to project their own values onto Adam. Their own notions and imaginings of what a "Superman" would look like beneath the helm and cape. I bet many of them saw him as aspirational; perhaps they even saw themselves as Blue Marvel. I could see that factoring into Adam's costume choice. But never fear or any racial component.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your viewpoint.

    I'm doing a terrible job of conveying it, but I'm speaking to a bigger issue with how Adam was handled. Successful books use tried and true formulas. I'm not opposed to governmental oversight per se. I just want the same treatment for Adam that the other heroes get most of the time. Everyone else gets to save the universe without the government, but when it's Adam turn to do it, insert government training wheels here. We get to see Hulk, Thor, Hyperion, Silver Surfer and on and on -- Adam's elite level peers -- tackle everything from Celestials, Beyonders, and uber godlike beings of every manner, but not Adam. Never Adam. I'm sensitive to that. I'm sensitive to every little thing that detracts from Adam's heroic journey.
    Thanks for the understanding and apprecation.

    Again, it's in large part due to how such is a motif in Adam's history. Among the peers you've mentioned, this applies to Bruce Banner's Hulk, too. (The others don't really get that because they never had that among their narrative motifs in the first place.) I guess, then, that that the big takeaway, and difference between Blue Marvel and Hulk in this case, is that Blue Marvel has a far lower number of overall stories.

    In Bruce's case, he has and constantly gets loads of stories, which allow for many different stories to be told with different perspectives and narrative motifs at play that still feel or become part of Bruce/Hulk's overall canon. With Blue Marvel, he doesn't have nearly as many stories and chances to explore him and who he is and what he can do and all of the different ways he can go about doing it. Because of this, familiar story motifs tend to crop up more often whenever Adam does get a story that puts major focus on the character.

    For me, as of now, I don't have any real problem with this, aside from the obvious (and at times blatant-feeling) lack and breadth of stories that feature Adam (and his family) getting serious, more-than-a-cool-boss-cameo appearances and focus.

  5. #245
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I would have muted it altogether. Other teams save the fabric of reality all of the time without governmental oversight or intervention. The X-Men and M'Kraan Crystal come to mind. As does the more recent multiverse saving actions of Reed, Molecule Man and Franklin Richards. I don't recall them requiring input, let alone oversight from a world authority. (But perhaps I missed an issue?)



    That's the thing, the team's mission statement clearly established that it intended to act tactically to obviate or inoculate against repeat threats like Galactus, Thanos, etc. You know they are coming. The boogeymen that have already broken into your home, savaged your wife and kids and shot your dogs on multiple occasions previously. I think you worry less about blowback that fourth or fifth time that the monster returns to your doorstep. At that point logic dictates that you deal with him before he comes looking for you and yours. The only certainty is that if you do nothing, they most certainly will.
    Part of the reason the ULtimates get more oversight is because they're more pro-active about things.

    Avengers USUALLY don't get involved in things until there's already a crisis. They're reacting to events. Same with FF, X-Men, and comic teams in general. The difference with the ULtimates is that they're trying to deal with problems BEFORE they start. They're the ones often initiating things. THey're potentially messing with some big and dangerous stuff... it's the reason MAC herself joined the team. To oversee them to ensure they weren't going to mess things up.

    The other issue being the Ultimates, in their transparency, pretty much advertise to the world what they're doing. Most people don't know what the Avengers and X-Men are doing, and the Avengers and X-men usually don't even have time to tell everyone since again they usually onlys start acting when a crisis has already begun, so most don't know the Avengers messing with the fabric of reality until after the fact, if they even know at all. Out of sight out of mind.

    You can argue Ultimates shouldn't have bothered with the whole transparency thing, but I think they wanted to avoid the Backlash that the Illuminati go when they did similar things in secret. So there's a trade off.

  6. #246
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Part of the reason the ULtimates get more oversight is because they're more pro-active about things.

    Avengers USUALLY don't get involved in things until there's already a crisis. They're reacting to events. Same with FF, X-Men, and comic teams in general. The difference with the ULtimates is that they're trying to deal with problems BEFORE they start. They're the ones often initiating things. THey're potentially messing with some big and dangerous stuff... it's the reason MAC herself joined the team. To oversee them to ensure they weren't going to mess things up.

    The other issue being the Ultimates, in their transparency, pretty much advertise to the world what they're doing. Most people don't know what the Avengers and X-Men are doing, and the Avengers and X-men usually don't even have time to tell everyone since again they usually onlys start acting when a crisis has already begun, so most don't know the Avengers messing with the fabric of reality until after the fact, if they even know at all. Out of sight out of mind.

    You can argue Ultimates shouldn't have bothered with the whole transparency thing, but I think they wanted to avoid the Backlash that the Illuminati go when they did similar things in secret. So there's a trade off.
    I hear you. But I still think this would have been a good time to introduce cosmic powers, or a body of same, as overseers. In some ways that was MAC's purpose for joining the team. But for all of her experience, she doesn't know everything. And as evinced by Lifebringer Galactus, just because the previous "fixer" found a working solution doesn't always mean that they found the best solution. MAC would never thought to re-incubate Galan, nor does she have the power to put him back into the electronic womb.

    And if MAC didn't have all of the answers, there's no way that any terrestrial government had all of the answers. Or even begin to know the questions. The most that they could do is hinder the team. No matter who is writing this story, that's the natural logical end. Most of the world's governments can't even agree that global warming is an imminent crisis. I realize the message that this may send, but T'Challa, Adam, MAC, etc., are all exemplaries. They're the people who the world turns to for solutions, not the other way around. Ewing would have been better off establishing that the Ultimates operated beyond world governments, but not necessarily unchecked by higher powers within the greater cosmos. As Logos painfully demonstrated, many of the threats that face the Earth are the design of those forces.

    I thought the Eternity Watch was a great idea. A coalition of powers to assist the Ultimates against the really heavy hitters and help protect the Earth from blowback. Who knows, perhaps Adam is still in touch with the Infinaut, the Shaper of Worlds and others? Maybe some writer will pick up those elements and run with it?

  7. #247
    Spectacular Member Cosmic Emerald 23's Avatar
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    Wow, this page is kinda dead. Anybody got anything new(ish) they wanna talk about regarding Blue? More matchups? More character connections?

    For me, I want to see him get more of a connection with Captain America. Idk something tells me they'd mesh well working together and have some cool stories.

    As for matchups, I mean, bring on all the heavyweights haha. Don't write the story just so Blue can fight them, but don't shy away from opportunities to let him show out. He was designed to be a heavy-hitter, so he should be written as such.

  8. #248
    Spectacular Member Cosmic Emerald 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I hear you. But I still think this would have been a good time to introduce cosmic powers, or a body of same, as overseers. In some ways that was MAC's purpose for joining the team. But for all of her experience, she doesn't know everything. And as evinced by Lifebringer Galactus, just because the previous "fixer" found a working solution doesn't always mean that they found the best solution. MAC would never thought to re-incubate Galan, nor does she have the power to put him back into the electronic womb.

    And if MAC didn't have all of the answers, there's no way that any terrestrial government had all of the answers. Or even begin to know the questions. The most that they could do is hinder the team. No matter who is writing this story, that's the natural logical end. Most of the world's governments can't even agree that global warming is an imminent crisis. I realize the message that this may send, but T'Challa, Adam, MAC, etc., are all exemplaries. They're the people who the world turns to for solutions, not the other way around. Ewing would have been better off establishing that the Ultimates operated beyond world governments, but not necessarily unchecked by higher powers within the greater cosmos. As Logos painfully demonstrated, many of the threats that face the Earth are the design of those forces.

    I thought the Eternity Watch was a great idea. A coalition of powers to assist the Ultimates against the really heavy hitters and help protect the Earth from blowback. Who knows, perhaps Adam is still in touch with the Infinaut, the Shaper of Worlds and others? Maybe some writer will pick up those elements and run with it?
    This stuff sounds interesting, I'll have to get up to speed soon so I can fully understand haha.

  9. #249
    Mighty Member Steroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Emerald 23 View Post
    Wow, this page is kinda dead. Anybody got anything new(ish) they wanna talk about regarding Blue? More matchups? More character connections?

    For me, I want to see him get more of a connection with Captain America. Idk something tells me they'd mesh well working together and have some cool stories.

    As for matchups, I mean, bring on all the heavyweights haha. Don't write the story just so Blue can fight them, but don't shy away from opportunities to let him show out. He was designed to be a heavy-hitter, so he should be written as such.
    At this point it's almost like every idea has been thrown out and it can get a bit disheartening when its painfully obvious that Adam is not on the radar for anyone at Marvel. I mean pretty much the only shot we have of even seeing Adam is gonna be a panel or two in Strikeforce if anything.

  10. #250
    Spectacular Member Cosmic Emerald 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    At this point it's almost like every idea has been thrown out and it can get a bit disheartening when its painfully obvious that Adam is not on the radar for anyone at Marvel. I mean pretty much the only shot we have of even seeing Adam is gonna be a panel or two in Strikeforce if anything.
    Dang that sucks. I'll be honest I haven't been keeping up with things on the Marvel side too much lately, but from what I'm hearing, it looks like things still haven't turned around for ol' Blue. I guess I should've gotten the hint from the inactivity on here.

  11. #251
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    I have a theory that part of the reason Blue Marvel never sees much use is due to the fact that he was retconned into Marvel History, and with that you set him up his default state of being to be inactive, or at least offscreen.

    It would of been better in my mind if he actually vanished (other dimension, time portal etc.) for awhile and only came back recently.

    Or just be a new hero.

  12. #252
    Spectacular Member Cosmic Emerald 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    I have a theory that part of the reason Blue Marvel never sees much use is due to the fact that he was retconned into Marvel History, and with that you set him up his default state of being to be inactive, or at least offscreen.

    It would of been better in my mind if he actually vanished (other dimension, time portal etc.) for awhile and only came back recently.

    Or just be a new hero.
    I see, I've been batting around a similar idea in my head for a while now. Do you think it would be better if one of his sons becomes the new Blue Marvel (with possibly a new name)? That way they'd be kinda free from all the retconned historical baggage and be used as a current day character.

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    I love Blue Marvel, but I also think it's time that Marvel introduces another elite level (power-wise) African American. Adam shouldn't have to be the only torchbearer, or the token torchbearer for that matter. To borrow a baseball analogy, I'm fine with Adam being the Jackie Robinson of the supremely powerful Black men on 616. But when do we get Roy Campanella, Satchel Paige, etc., etc., all the way down the line to some of the more modern greats like Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Ken Griffey, Jr.? There should be more than one, just like writers now have their choice of White characters with diverse origins, whether we're talking Sentry, Hyperion, Miracleman, Captain Britain, Silver Surfer, Thor and on and on and on.

  14. #254
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Emerald 23 View Post
    I see, I've been batting around a similar idea in my head for a while now. Do you think it would be better if one of his sons becomes the new Blue Marvel (with possibly a new name)? That way they'd be kinda free from all the retconned historical baggage and be used as a current day character.
    I'd actually do a clone, maybe as part of a Weapon Interger or ShadowBase style program. Play up the fact that he's got all the power of Blue Marvel, but without the history it's hard to tell which way he'll turn.

    But that's coming from a Hulk fan, with splashes of Venom, Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Punisher etc. So that might just be more my style.

    I actually came up with the idea while kicking a Young Defenders concept around in my head. Skaar, Namorita, Kristoff Bernard,.and this new guy fulfilling the Silver Surfer slot.

  15. #255
    Spectacular Member Cosmic Emerald 23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I love Blue Marvel, but I also think it's time that Marvel introduces another elite level (power-wise) African American. Adam shouldn't have to be the only torchbearer, or the token torchbearer for that matter. To borrow a baseball analogy, I'm fine with Adam being the Jackie Robinson of the supremely powerful Black men on 616. But when do we get Roy Campanella, Satchel Paige, etc., etc., all the way down the line to some of the more modern greats like Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Ken Griffey, Jr.? There should be more than one, just like writers now have their choice of White characters with diverse origins, whether we're talking Sentry, Hyperion, Miracleman, Captain Britain, Silver Surfer, Thor and on and on and on.
    I feel where you're coming from, I've thought about this too. I'm just focusing on Blue cuz he's actually tangible and he's been established for a decade or so. I personally feel it'll be a tall order to have Marvel make a new S+ tier Black male character now because of their obsession with Carol Danvers and inflating her power levels (yes, I know this isn't DBZ but hear me out) to make people think they are more than what they really are just so that she can be the "strongest". That and the overall history of comics not really doing something like that for a black character in general.

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