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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I'm hoping it's Eldoris Curry.
    Yeah, me too.

    Honestly, the Alternate Future Kids of the Justice League where the highpoint of the first JL series after Rebirth, and Eldoris was definitively one of the coolest and most interesting, having all her parent's powers, fierce but kind, truly what it takes to be a great leader and hero. I would love to see her grow in comics.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    How old is Tula these days - relative to Arthur, Orm, and Garth.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I already have so many members on the Aqua side, and I'm not certain how they'll all play in, given their differing stories/endings before and after reboots. Should I use them all - should any die? I haven't even read all the characters, since I did not like what I sampled of Peter David's run of Aquaman and only read a few issues of that series.

    EDIT:
    If anyone wants to propose new origins/backstories for any of the characters, let me know - I'm not married to any of their origin stories, given the variety we have to choose from for these Atlanteans. Also, let me know your favorite characterizations. I don't know them all. And even the ones I do know vary by writer/era. And I'm not keeping Sub Diego.
    I say keep them all. Every character has their fans. Nobody should be left out.

    Personally my favourite character is Dolphin and I like her "Rebirth" characterisation (mute, sea-changed Atlantean) the most. I think it's the most streamlined and gives her the most distinctiveness and importance to the story (plus it adds more to Atlantis as a place). No need for anything new, maybe add some backstory to her life growing up in the Ninth Tride but otherwise keep it just as it is.

    For Garth I say stick with his Rebirth version too. I like the idea that he has all this mystic power but refuses to use it on principle unless the need is great enough (like helping Mera get through the Crown of Thorns).

  4. #49
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I say keep them all. Every character has their fans. Nobody should be left out.
    Safest bet, certainly. Lorena would have to have a new origin. I like the cleaner, more Atlantian origin for Dolphin, as you do, so it might be ironic if I end up giving Lorena an expirmented-upon origin (I'm cutting down on entire-city destructions). Cerdian is easy enough (and you do not know how it irritates me that DC couldn't keep the child's sex straight), I just have to have Garth and Dolphin hook up at some time. Since I have no particular ship that I like for either of them, that's not really an issue, whether short or long term. But their entire romance would have to be redone.

    But Koryak is the biggest issue. How much could I change his origin while not just making him a different character with same name? Firstly, of course, he won't have the same tie to Orm, because I'm going with a shared mother (Atlanna) rather than shared father (Atlan) for Orm and Arthur. Secondly, I have to figure out how old I want Arthur and at what point in the narrative it makes sense for him to have a grown son. If I make Koryak his son - that's the part I think people would be most up in arms about me changing. But I have issues with Arthur on the throne already. This ties in with my issues with Atlantis being depicted as such a xenophobic and racist society. You can see it further highlighted on the Aquaman tv tropes under "Humans are Morons" and "Refusal of the Call" and "Fantastic Racism" sections. Not necessarily how I view every circumstance, but certainly Atlantis has become a much worse society then when originally introduced (as have other fictional DC civilizations as comic books changed). An outsider (because Arthur is never raised in that culture, never one of them in that way, even when full-blood) coming in to rule and "fix" the kingdom has undertones I don't like. And then if he, as "bastard half-breed" (assuming the marriage wouldn't be recognized by Atlantean law), can be king, then his son, a bastard quarter-breed, can also inherit the throne if recognized. And he's another one not raised in the society, which just exacerbates the issue.

    And there's Arthur's current abandonment issues. They make sense, and I'm good with that as storyline. But it needs to be storyline that ends and not just a persistent character trait that hangs around forever to me. I'd rather he find some peace on it. But if he finds out he effectively abandoned his own son (well, he never knew, but you know it's got to feel that way), so I think that's the kind of drama that could go well or terribly.

    Tula, I just have to decide on a version - I do kinda want her and Garth dating as teens - they were cute.

    Garth, do I still want him as Aquaman's protege? Because he was very much a son to Arthur in those early stories, IMO. And if he is, I'd think Arthur's abandonment issues might kick up then, when he decided to keep the boy, rather than just later, when he was facing impending parenthood. He'd already be a parent, although it'd feel quite different, since it might happen more gradually, and with a much older child. But you don't want to deal with that Arthur-abandonment-issue-as-parent thing three times because it's just repetitive.

    Then, of course, we get into more throne-inheritance issues and bio v. adopted (legally?) children and so forth. Presuming, of course, Arthur, rather than Mera, holds the throne. If either of them do.

    And, oh, timing. If I have Arthur come to Atlantis in early 20s (shortly after father's death), should he meet Garth and Mera then? If so, then is Garth still 15ish when Aquababy born? And Koryak would then be 6 or 7 years older than Aquababy? Could make Arthur older (or not meet Garth for a few years after coming to Atlantis), though. So many choices.

    I have a fondness for older versions where Arthur is not the king, but there's really not much mythology to work with there, and it's frankly against audience expectations now.


    EDIT: Does anyone else tend to forget Arthur Joseph Curry exists?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-25-2019 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #50
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    I hope Koryak is featured in YJ season 4.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Safest bet, certainly. Lorena would have to have a new origin. I like the cleaner, more Atlantian origin for Dolphin, as you do, so it might be ironic if I end up giving Lorena an expirmented-upon origin (I'm cutting down on entire-city destructions). Cerdian is easy enough (and you do not know how it irritates me that DC couldn't keep the child's sex straight), I just have to have Garth and Dolphin hook up at some time. Since I have no particular ship that I like for either of them, that's not really an issue, whether short or long term. But their entire romance would have to be redone.
    I think most Lorena fans would be cool with a different origin as long as you keep her personality intact.

    True, Garth and Dolphin's relationship would need to be re-written but personally I think it would be fascinating to see how their Rebirth selves would interact. I think you could come up with something brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But Koryak is the biggest issue. How much could I change his origin while not just making him a different character with same name? Firstly, of course, he won't have the same tie to Orm, because I'm going with a shared mother (Atlanna) rather than shared father (Atlan) for Orm and Arthur. Secondly, I have to figure out how old I want Arthur and at what point in the narrative it makes sense for him to have a grown son. If I make Koryak his son - that's the part I think people would be most up in arms about me changing. But I have issues with Arthur on the throne already. This ties in with my issues with Atlantis being depicted as such a xenophobic and racist society. You can see it further highlighted on the Aquaman tv tropes under "Humans are Morons" and "Refusal of the Call" and "Fantastic Racism" sections. Not necessarily how I view every circumstance, but certainly Atlantis has become a much worse society then when originally introduced (as have other fictional DC civilizations as comic books changed). An outsider (because Arthur is never raised in that culture, never one of them in that way, even when full-blood) coming in to rule and "fix" the kingdom has undertones I don't like. And then if he, as "bastard half-breed" (assuming the marriage wouldn't be recognized by Atlantean law), can be king, then his son, a bastard quarter-breed, can also inherit the throne if recognized. And he's another one not raised in the society, which just exacerbates the issue.
    I understand the problematic undertones but personally I rather like Atlantis being a xenophobic/racist society. The simple fact is that the trope of an isolated society becoming a perfect utopia doesn't happen (I have problems with Black Panther's Wakanda for the same reason). If you look at history, isolated societies without contact or trade with the outside world do not become idyllic paradises. In fact they stagnate and regress.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Safest bet, certainly. Lorena would have to have a new origin. I like the cleaner, more Atlantian origin for Dolphin, as you do, so it might be ironic if I end up giving Lorena an expirmented-upon origin (I'm cutting down on entire-city destructions). Cerdian is easy enough (and you do not know how it irritates me that DC couldn't keep the child's sex straight), I just have to have Garth and Dolphin hook up at some time. Since I have no particular ship that I like for either of them, that's not really an issue, whether short or long term. But their entire romance would have to be redone.

    But Koryak is the biggest issue. How much could I change his origin while not just making him a different character with same name? Firstly, of course, he won't have the same tie to Orm, because I'm going with a shared mother (Atlanna) rather than shared father (Atlan) for Orm and Arthur. Secondly, I have to figure out how old I want Arthur and at what point in the narrative it makes sense for him to have a grown son. If I make Koryak his son - that's the part I think people would be most up in arms about me changing. But I have issues with Arthur on the throne already. This ties in with my issues with Atlantis being depicted as such a xenophobic and racist society. You can see it further highlighted on the Aquaman tv tropes under "Humans are Morons" and "Refusal of the Call" and "Fantastic Racism" sections. Not necessarily how I view every circumstance, but certainly Atlantis has become a much worse society then when originally introduced (as have other fictional DC civilizations as comic books changed). An outsider (because Arthur is never raised in that culture, never one of them in that way, even when full-blood) coming in to rule and "fix" the kingdom has undertones I don't like. And then if he, as "bastard half-breed" (assuming the marriage wouldn't be recognized by Atlantean law), can be king, then his son, a bastard quarter-breed, can also inherit the throne if recognized. And he's another one not raised in the society, which just exacerbates the issue.

    And there's Arthur's current abandonment issues. They make sense, and I'm good with that as storyline. But it needs to be storyline that ends and not just a persistent character trait that hangs around forever to me. I'd rather he find some peace on it. But if he finds out he effectively abandoned his own son (well, he never knew, but you know it's got to feel that way), so I think that's the kind of drama that could go well or terribly.

    Tula, I just have to decide on a version - I do kinda want her and Garth dating as teens - they were cute.

    Garth, do I still want him as Aquaman's protege? Because he was very much a son to Arthur in those early stories, IMO. And if he is, I'd think Arthur's abandonment issues might kick up then, when he decided to keep the boy, rather than just later, when he was facing impending parenthood. He'd already be a parent, although it'd feel quite different, since it might happen more gradually, and with a much older child. But you don't want to deal with that Arthur-abandonment-issue-as-parent thing three times because it's just repetitive.

    Then, of course, we get into more throne-inheritance issues and bio v. adopted (legally?) children and so forth. Presuming, of course, Arthur, rather than Mera, holds the throne. If either of them do.

    And, oh, timing. If I have Arthur come to Atlantis in early 20s (shortly after father's death), should he meet Garth and Mera then? If so, then is Garth still 15ish when Aquababy born? And Koryak would then be 6 or 7 years older than Aquababy? Could make Arthur older (or not meet Garth for a few years after coming to Atlantis), though. So many choices.

    I have a fondness for older versions where Arthur is not the king, but there's really not much mythology to work with there, and it's frankly against audience expectations now.


    EDIT: Does anyone else tend to forget Arthur Joseph Curry exists?
    I am Nigerian so I may not have the best view on this but here's my two cents. Arthur and Koryak being outsiders who fix Atlantian culture can be wrong or right in certain contexts. The DCEU movie had a decent enough take on this by making Arthur Polynesian and playing up his culture's connection to the sea. The issues of him being a human-Atlantian hybrid (you might want to avoid using terms like half-breed or quarter-breed in future btw) resonated a lot more since he was a person of color. Same with Koryak. He's Native American and it isn't often you see a character like that in a story like this so that does remove the unfortunate implications.

    Now I will agree there need to be more peaceful and non antagonistic Atlantians shown. But those Atlantians need not be full blooded ones or ones raised in Atlantis.

    Also, there is Garth who was a victim of Atlantis prejudice but is still a hero.

  8. #53
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    The issues of him being a human-Atlantian hybrid (you might want to avoid using terms like half-breed or quarter-breed in future btw)
    Actually used it deliberately because it was offensive - as with "bastard" instead of illegitimate. That's the entire point - perception of group (Atlanteans) or representation of Arthur's view of how they view him.

    I understand the problematic undertones but personally I rather like Atlantis being a xenophobic/racist society. The simple fact is that the trope of an isolated society becoming a perfect utopia doesn't happen (I have problems with Black Panther's Wakanda for the same reason). If you look at history, isolated societies without contact or trade with the outside world do not become idyllic paradises. In fact they stagnate and regress.
    I'm not talking perfect Utopia. I'm talking normal ordinary, on-par-with-western-countries-on-surface countries. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just Atlantis, but it's been done with others, too (Thanagar, Krypton, hugely sexist Themyscira and fascist-seeming Rann). All of the cultures have at some point been made explicitly bad at one time or another, and four of the five have invaded the planet/surface/"man's world" part at some time.

    Now I will agree there need to be more peaceful and non antagonistic Atlantians shown. But those Atlantians need not be full blooded ones or ones raised in Atlantis.
    Which still leads to a society/people (Atlantis) that must be ruled/controlled by outsiders because they are unfit for self-rule. Doesn't help at all. Especially if it's only non-full-blooded ones. One the culture is horrible and must be controlled by outsiders, the other says the actual DNA is horrible and only those "improved" by normal-human-DNA are decent and the culture still needs to be controlled/ruled by those outside their own culture.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-31-2019 at 07:11 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'm not talking perfect Utopia. I'm talking normal ordinary, on-par-with-western-countries-on-surface countries.
    That's the point. Western-on-surface countries are the product of centuries of international trade and economic entrepreneurship with other countries. This allows for a free and open exchange of ideas, including ideas for social development. Atlantis does not have this benefit. It is simply not logical for it to be on par with surface countries for this reason. I recommend checking out this video:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNf2UZPMiBs

    It's a fascinating watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Which still leads to a society/people (Atlantis) that must be ruled/controlled by outsiders because they are unfit for self-rule. Doesn't help at all. Especially if it's only non-full-blooded ones. One the culture is horrible and must be controlled by outsiders, the other says the actual DNA is horrible and only those "improved" by normal-human-DNA are decent and the culture still needs to be controlled/ruled by those outside their own culture.
    I see your point but it's not so much "they are unfit for self-rule" as "they need to be introduced to new ideas that they never had the chance to learn."

    Now I will agree there need to be more peaceful and non antagonistic Atlantians shown.
    Indeed, and we had exactly that with the sea-changed Atlanteans during the "Underworld" arc. I think that showed very well that it's really only the "upper-class" Atlanteans, those in power and such that are corrupt. The regular everyday folk are mostly good people.

    Just like in real life.
    Last edited by hareluyafan1; 07-31-2019 at 04:12 PM.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Safest bet, certainly. Lorena would have to have a new origin. I like the cleaner, more Atlantian origin for Dolphin, as you do, so it might be ironic if I end up giving Lorena an expirmented-upon origin (I'm cutting down on entire-city destructions). Cerdian is easy enough (and you do not know how it irritates me that DC couldn't keep the child's sex straight), I just have to have Garth and Dolphin hook up at some time. Since I have no particular ship that I like for either of them, that's not really an issue, whether short or long term. But their entire romance would have to be redone.

    But Koryak is the biggest issue. How much could I change his origin while not just making him a different character with same name? Firstly, of course, he won't have the same tie to Orm, because I'm going with a shared mother (Atlanna) rather than shared father (Atlan) for Orm and Arthur. Secondly, I have to figure out how old I want Arthur and at what point in the narrative it makes sense for him to have a grown son. If I make Koryak his son - that's the part I think people would be most up in arms about me changing. But I have issues with Arthur on the throne already. This ties in with my issues with Atlantis being depicted as such a xenophobic and racist society. You can see it further highlighted on the Aquaman tv tropes under "Humans are Morons" and "Refusal of the Call" and "Fantastic Racism" sections. Not necessarily how I view every circumstance, but certainly Atlantis has become a much worse society then when originally introduced (as have other fictional DC civilizations as comic books changed). An outsider (because Arthur is never raised in that culture, never one of them in that way, even when full-blood) coming in to rule and "fix" the kingdom has undertones I don't like. And then if he, as "bastard half-breed" (assuming the marriage wouldn't be recognized by Atlantean law), can be king, then his son, a bastard quarter-breed, can also inherit the throne if recognized. And he's another one not raised in the society, which just exacerbates the issue.

    And there's Arthur's current abandonment issues. They make sense, and I'm good with that as storyline. But it needs to be storyline that ends and not just a persistent character trait that hangs around forever to me. I'd rather he find some peace on it. But if he finds out he effectively abandoned his own son (well, he never knew, but you know it's got to feel that way), so I think that's the kind of drama that could go well or terribly.

    Tula, I just have to decide on a version - I do kinda want her and Garth dating as teens - they were cute.

    Garth, do I still want him as Aquaman's protege? Because he was very much a son to Arthur in those early stories, IMO. And if he is, I'd think Arthur's abandonment issues might kick up then, when he decided to keep the boy, rather than just later, when he was facing impending parenthood. He'd already be a parent, although it'd feel quite different, since it might happen more gradually, and with a much older child. But you don't want to deal with that Arthur-abandonment-issue-as-parent thing three times because it's just repetitive.

    Then, of course, we get into more throne-inheritance issues and bio v. adopted (legally?) children and so forth. Presuming, of course, Arthur, rather than Mera, holds the throne. If either of them do.

    And, oh, timing. If I have Arthur come to Atlantis in early 20s (shortly after father's death), should he meet Garth and Mera then? If so, then is Garth still 15ish when Aquababy born? And Koryak would then be 6 or 7 years older than Aquababy? Could make Arthur older (or not meet Garth for a few years after coming to Atlantis), though. So many choices.

    I have a fondness for older versions where Arthur is not the king, but there's really not much mythology to work with there, and it's frankly against audience expectations now.


    EDIT: Does anyone else tend to forget Arthur Joseph Curry exists?
    Garth being Aquaman's protoge isnt really a relationship that needs be Father/Son not all mentorships are like that. Hell some writers have treated their relationship as if they were sibling brothers. Aquaman being Garth's older guiding brother and im pretty sure Arthur Jr. has referred to Garth as uncle on some occasions. Displaying their relationship be AJ seeing Garth as a parental figure more than older sibling. Id treat Aquaman/Garth like Naruto/Konohamaru. The age gap isn't that big but Naruto was a mentor to Konohamaru taught him some of his moves and motivated him.

    Koryak you could have him as a alternate reality/Time displayed character if you really want to keep the fact Aquaman's his dad.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I am Nigerian so I may not have the best view on this but here's my two cents. Arthur and Koryak being outsiders who fix Atlantian culture can be wrong or right in certain contexts. The DCEU movie had a decent enough take on this by making Arthur Polynesian and playing up his culture's connection to the sea. The issues of him being a human-Atlantian hybrid (you might want to avoid using terms like half-breed or quarter-breed in future btw) resonated a lot more since he was a person of color. Same with Koryak. He's Native American and it isn't often you see a character like that in a story like this so that does remove the unfortunate implications.

    Now I will agree there need to be more peaceful and non antagonistic Atlantians shown. But those Atlantians need not be full blooded ones or ones raised in Atlantis.

    Also, there is Garth who was a victim of Atlantis prejudice but is still a hero.
    I'm Naija too!

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    I'm Naija too!
    Hey glad to meet a fellow Nigerian.

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