Should Marvel have rebooted after Hickman's Secret Wars

[jackolover]

How many Spider-Man covers from the '60s had Spidey being hunted by the cops? Spidey was seen as a menace and was often hounded by law enforcement, goaded on by JJJ's personal vendetta against him. So the press and the police were out to get him.

Yeah, then everyone became Spider-Man in 2006 from then on. That’s the difference.

[Prof. Warren]

Yeah, then everyone became Spider-Man in 2006 from then on. That’s the difference.

No. Outside of the Dark Reign era, of which part of the point was to put the larger superhero community in Spider-Man's shoes as outlaws, most heroes are still embraced as heroes.

At least, no less so than they were previously.

And it should be noted that clearly the heroes were still in the right in the Dark Reign era and that the oppression and persecution they faced was by the direction of Norman Osborn. It was the world that became a darker place, not the heroes themselves.

[jackolover]

No. Outside of the Dark Reign era, of which part of the point was to put the larger superhero community in Spider-Man's shoes as outlaws, most heroes are still embraced as heroes.

At least, no less so than they were previously.

And it should be noted that clearly the heroes were still in the right in the Dark Reign era and that the oppression and persecution they faced was by the direction of Norman Osborn. It was the world that became a darker place, not the heroes themselves.

Yes good point about the world becoming a darker place. However, I don’t think the heroes become exempt from that estimation either. If the common people became darker, and they treated super heroes as chattels, I don’t think the heroes are going to be insulated from that conditioning either. I think it damaged the super heroes psyche, and I can’t blame them for feeling isolated and abandoned in a world like that. From then on, I think the heroes turned dark like the normal population because the heroes weren’t in their own world of support and welcome anymore. I think when the super heroes realised If Captain America can be killed on the steps of the courthouse, then all hope is lost. You don’t recover from this. Sure, Heroic Age followed, but the super hero psyche couldn’t trust the world anymore if they realised the world was so fickle it could abandon what good the heroes did at the snap of their fingers.

[Prof. Warren]

Yes good point about the world becoming a darker place. However, I don’t think the heroes become exempt from that estimation either. If the common people became darker, and they treated super heroes as chattels, I don’t think the heroes are going to be insulated from that conditioning either. I think it damaged the super heroes psyche, and I can’t blame them for feeling isolated and abandoned in a world like that. From then on, I think the heroes turned dark like the normal population because the heroes weren’t in their own world of support and welcome anymore. I think when the super heroes realised If Captain America can be killed on the steps of the courthouse, then all hope is lost. You don’t recover from this. Sure, Heroic Age followed, but the super hero psyche couldn’t trust the world anymore if they realised the world was so fickle it could abandon what good the heroes did at the snap of their fingers.

That implies that Marvel heroes ever had an idealized view of the world and it's pretty easy to say they didn't.

Marvel heroes have always suffered setbacks and demoralizing failures and persecution. Captain America being gunned down was certainly a shock but it didn't shatter an idyllic world.

The MU has always been tinged with modern cynicism.

[CaptCleghorn]

That implies that Marvel heroes ever had an idealized view of the world and it's pretty easy to say they didn't.

Marvel heroes have always suffered setbacks and demoralizing failures and persecution. Captain America being gunned down was certainly a shock but it didn't shatter an idyllic world.

The MU has always been tinged with modern cynicism.

I'd go so far as to say the world may not be getting darker, it's just that the lens we're looking at it through is changing. The first few years of the Marvel Universe were through the Comics Code. There were checks and balances for what could happen and how results may occur. Once stories started not code approved and venturing into mature and parental advisory territory, we saw a darker look. A look at WW2 then, in the silver age, and now paint different pictures.

[JKtheMac]

I'd go so far as to say the world may not be getting darker, it's just that the lens we're looking at it through is changing. The first few years of the Marvel Universe were through the Comics Code. There were checks and balances for what could happen and how results may occur. Once stories started not code approved and venturing into mature and parental advisory territory, we saw a darker look. A look at WW2 then, in the silver age, and now paint different pictures.

However (and I know we are all arguing from very different perspectives) I would suggest that the comics code was good for Marvel. For me 80% or more of their best material probably fits within the code. I personally don’t think Marvel should try and subvert their own genre and sometimes they have, to poor effect.

[jackolover]

That implies that Marvel heroes ever had an idealized view of the world and it's pretty easy to say they didn't.

Marvel heroes have always suffered setbacks and demoralizing failures and persecution. Captain America being gunned down was certainly a shock but it didn't shatter an idyllic world.

The MU has always been tinged with modern cynicism.

I suppose we have a difference of opinion on an idealised world. My view is the heroes were safeguarded by society that they could operate without hinderance before Civil War 2006. (If they did something criminal they could be brought to justice). But after CW 2006, the super heroes could no longer operate under the safeguard of society, because society just retracted that safeguard wholesale to everyone. I think that’s where we differ.

[jackolover]

Getting back to the OP, “should Marvel have rebooted after Hickmans Secret Wars?”.

I suppose there are people who would say there shouldn’t be a reboot, because the 616 was just fine before Secret Wars 2015, (and SW’s would include Time Runs Out). That would leave the 616 at post-AXIS with an inverted Sabretooth and Tony Stark. Let’s say SW’s 2015 never happened, would I like where Marvel were going at this period?

I wouldn’t like Tony Stark inverted, but I would Sabretooth. Post-AXIS was a very dull period in Marvel that unless you followed Avengers by Hickman, the 616 was petering out badly. Spider verse? An inverted Scott Summers? Old Man Cap? Okay Sam Wilson as Cap was a great idea, but it was political, but not as bad because President Obama already paved the way. The FF went sour and tired. We basically got to the end of Iron Mans Wall-map from Heroic Age Avengers #5, where Marvel ran out of ideas. The wall-map had the Universe ending suddenly with a bang. That’s what post-AXIS reminded me of.

So though that post-AXIS period was imperfect, why couldn’t Marvel go anywhere with this?

I think Marvel needed a reboot post-AXIS, because it dug a hole for itself. They changed so much about the heroes, (Thor was unworthy due to Original Sin, Iron Man Inverted, Cap was an old man, Spiderman was an industrialist) all at the same time during that period that they took away the classical heroes fueling the MCU, let alone what heroes stood for, that they had to REPLACE them with more “worthy” others. It wasn’t a very nice time.